Lit We Hav to Take a Trip with Jacen Solo (WARNING: MAY CONTAIN SNARK)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Trip, May 25, 2008.

  1. LittleMissNightsaber Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2009
    star 3
    In the event that Jaina joins her brothers in kicking the proverbial bucket, hopefully Havac will provide us with a Jaina snark thread?
    I was thinking the same thing. Jaina can be a bit annoying.
  2. Darth_Furio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2008
    star 7
    Well Done Havac! OMG that was good. Have to say though, this reminds me why I read "The Amazing Mandos and Stupid Force Users" book (Revelation) only the one time.
  3. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    Reading this thread has actually made me reevaluate my opinion of Revelation. I liked it at the time, but now...
  4. Magnuskn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2002
    star 4
    You should read YodaKenobis review of it. Havac only went into the Jacen parts...
  5. Rew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2008
    star 4
    Well, if YodaKenobi is so high and mighty and better than Traviss, why doesn't he go write these stories himself?


    Oh wait, he has. :p
  6. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    Can you post a link to YodaKenobi's review? After the crap that I have to put up with in APGovernment and APLiterature, I could use some laughs.
  7. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    You should read Havac's review while you are there as well.

    http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/28128642/p1

  8. Rew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2008
    star 4
    http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/28128642/p2

    If you're looking at 50 ppp, it'll be on page 2 of that thread. I think it's post #72 or somewhere thereabouts.

    It's definitely a worthy (if lenghty!) read. [face_peace]
  9. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    That was beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. And yet Karen Traviss's books are still probably my favorite part of Legacy of the Force. I reread the series just before school started. While there were certainly issues with her books, I enjoyed them for the most part. When she wasn't taking the Mandos beyond believability at the expense of established characters (and I am a bit of a Fando), I thought she was able to do some of the characterizations better than the others. Jacen and Mara in particular. And I rather enjoyed the saga of Boba Fett, though I think she would have taken less flack for it if she had set it during the NJO and made it the story of the Mandalorian resistance. With a few nips and tucks, it could have worked. Oh how I wish they had kept the vibe they had going in betrayal. It started out so promising. Jacen's fate is really starting to reek of Troy Denning. The whole DN-LOTF-FOTJ seems to be his personal fanfic. "Well, I like Star Wars, but I disagree with actually giving depth to this universe with characters like Vergere and Jacen, so I think that I'm just going to butcher them in order to discredit that view of the GFFA." The only Denning book I found even acceptable since Star By Star (which was awesome) was Invincible, and that was mainly because Jacen finally came off as an effective villain. Otherwise, his work on this era has discouraged me from buying FOTJ.
  10. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    The Revelation review by YK was simply...wow. Can't really argue against any of it. And couldn't possibly put it any better myself. Mostly because of how much of the details he included. That was a wall of text to put all previous wall of texts to shame.
  11. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Ah, its pretty easy to argue against it as about 90% of it is quotes from Boba, Daala or other Mandalorians who have no reason to like Jedi.

    But if you like that review you should seek out YK's reviews of Bloodlines and Sacrifice for some very similar, virtually copied and pasted thoughts.
  12. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    It's not so much that those characters think/talk the way they do. It's that there is nobody that can/will say they're wrong. Like he pointed out. Nobody makes a counter-argument. They all just kinda shuffle their feet like "oh...you're right". The Mando-love in the book was laid on so thick I actually choked on it a few times. And the Jedi-hate that it was constantly mixed in with wasn't exactly subtle, either.
  13. CaptainPeabody Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 2
    =D=Wow, indeed. Absolutely, perfectly, wonderfully right.

    Reading Revelation for the first (and only) time was a decidedly strange experience; I went into it on a high after the awesomeness of Fury (i.e. all the cool characters join up with the Jedi Order and hit the Bad Guys repeatedly with a big stick).

    When I opened the book, then, I was legitimately excited about the prospects of Jaina's training with Boba and the Revelation of Jacen's murder of Mara, and all the other plot points left hanging from the last book.
    And...well, that high carried me at least halfway through the book.

    But as the Mando sections piled up, I gradually began to be somewhat annoyed with the ridiculous Jedi-bashing, and most of all with Jaina's inexplicable lack of response to it. But, for the most part, I suppressed that annoyance, and kept reading.

    You see, up to the very end of the book, I was patiently waiting for Jaina to respond to the Mandalorian point of view with some pointed arguments on the other side; to show the other side of the story, the other legitimate point-of-view on the situation. I mean, obviously, the Mandalorians are going to have some pretty biased opinions on the subject of Jedi. It's only natural.

    But, as the book went on, it just became more and more...unpleasant. That's the only word for it. Seeing Jaina physically and verbally beaten over and over again...seeing the Jedi again and again battered away at with stupid, vindictive, self-serving arguments...culminating with the horrible scene, defying all plot logic, where the uber-Mandalorians beat up Jacen and then decide not to kill him...all thoroughly unpleasant, in every way. And all the way through to the end, past Pellaeon's sudden and inexplicable love and respect for Daala (blatantly contradicting HoT, where he's shown thinking of her as an incompetent madman who drove the Empire into the ground), her uber-tech, and all the other bits of unpleasantness, even as my annoyance and uneasiness was gradually building, I suppressed it and kept reading, still waiting for the other shoe to drop. For some sanity to show through.

    Finally, I got to the final scene (or close to it), with Jaina and the ex-Jedi Mando, and read it through to the end. Putting the book down, I remember feeling not just disappointed, but actually angry at the book.

    Now, I really cannot emphasize enough that I am someone who does not, on principle, get angry at Star Wars books. I am always very, very easy-going and laid-back when it comes to Star Wars literature. My rule is, if I had fun reading the book, if it entertained me to a reasonable degree, then I'm cool with it. Even with books that are objectively bad, I'll try to find the good points in it, and go as easy on them as possible. Heck, I'm someone who actually likes bad literature, movies, and TV; I enjoy the Glove of Darth Vader series, I love Star Trek TOS (giant rubber Gorn, space hippies, and Brainless Spock included, baby!), the Star Wars Holiday Special, and a lot of other stuff that most people can't stand. And even if I don't like it, don't enjoy it, I'll just shrug and move on. The idea of me getting angry at a Star Wars novel because it's bad is, frankly, ridiculous. So why did I get angry?


    Well, it's really quite simple. The reason I got mad at Revelation is not that it's badly written, or plotted, though it certainly is; as I said, I enjoy stuff that's badly written and plotted. Even with Revelation, I'm fine with many of the bad plotting and plot twist stuff that many others hate; s' cool.

    But, in the end, it's exactly YodaKenobi said: Revelation is just one ugly, hateful little book, in both senses of the word.

    The thing is, Revelation, in its strange way almost isn't literature at all in some places; it almost becomes a piece of political propaganda. Reading the Mando sections of the novel is almost akin to watching Triumph of the Will. All throughout, you're being constantly bludgeoned with one message, over and over again, with al
  14. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    The only character in a position to repremand Fett is Jaina, which she actually does at some points even though its layed out on page two that she was going to have to swallow her pride and do whatever it took to get him to train her.

    I didn't particularly like Jaina's presentation myself in Revelation, but keep in mind the book also had Pellaeon complimenting the Jedi, mentioning how the Jedi are good at being the "conscience on the shoulders of leaders" and how they excellent peace keeping soldiers as well as complimenting Leia and wishing she were running the GA.

    The problem I see with YK's review from my perspective(and I have discussed this with him a long time back) is that it accomplishes the exact same crime that he accuses Traviss of.

    It doesn't show balance, in fact specifically ignores any scene like Pellaeon's, or goes about twisting scenes so that they appear in the worst possible light.

    That said I agree that there are issues with Jaina, issues with the way the Mandalorians were portrayed(when confronting Caedus most certainly) and just general issues to do with the entire series(suddenly everyone knows Jacen is a Sith).

    My point is completely skipping over text, and context, within the book just because it doesn't match up with how one is trying to make the novel appear as a whole doesn't lead to a balanced approach of any sort.

    In any case everyone is welcome to their opinion, and mine is that YK's review is an attack on an author far more than it is a review of a book.

    Anyway, based upon that review YK got his official Force.net reviewer colors so clearly many don't share my views, and thats OK.[face_peace]
  15. Liliedhe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2009
    star 3
    Except we get Jaina's POV. If she was just keeping quiet because of politeness, that should be reflected there. But she never thinks anything like "that's not true, but I better keep my trap shut". She agrees with everything, even in her head. And that's just too much.
  16. Magnuskn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2002
    star 4
    And better. Well, that's like saying Star Wars is better than Plan 9 from Outer Space, to be honest, because in this comparison YK is Star Wars and Traviss Plan 9. :p
  17. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Humiltity girl, remember humility - Right from Jaina's POV on page 132.

    Honestly for most of the book I simply feel that Jaina ignores their snark for better or worse.

    "The trouble with getting attached to Jedi, buir, is thats its...really upsetting when you have to slaughter them"

    Everyone laughed, Jaina managed to as well, a little stung , but that was just their humor. Nothing personal; no worse than all the head rolling jokes her father made about Jango Fett's demise. - Page 181

    I saw Jaina trying very hard to accept their behavior without picking a fight at various intervals in the book. Fett also compliments Jaina a lot, from talking about how she's very good with machinery to how impressive she looks during the battle on the Bloodfin.

    I didn't at any point in this book find Jaina reflecting and thinking "Wow, I'm so wrong and the Mando's are so right". She just silently accepts what they have to offer in an effort to learn something new, in an effort to come to grips with confronting her brother. And keep in mind the advise she found most useful was from a former Jedi.

    Jaina does grow to respect the Mandalorians, that is much certain, and even Fett which I don't think was good characterization at all, but overall I think Jaina taking the verbal jabs, listening to the Mandalorian POV's, in no way states that she feels their view of the universe is the correct one.

    I also think Jaina coming to accept the idea that she will have to kill her brother to stop him works really well as an examination of the inner turmoil such a decision must have had on her. For me giving Jaina an entire book to sway back and forth, trying to decide if killing her brother was the right thing to do, added a lot to LOTF in general.

    For me it drove home the point that confronting her brother would be an extremely difficult thing to do. A lot of Star Wars novels gloss over this type of internal dilema in a rush to have the heroes confront the next level boss like in a video game. I'm glad this didn't go that route.

  18. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    *Bump*
    When can we expect an update?
    And will we be getting snark on FOTJ's retconning of Jacen's motivations?
  19. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Uh, it'll be my Christmas present to you?

    And it'll end with Invincible.
  20. IllogicalRogue2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 2

    Hehehe I enjoyed it myself, we already knew Jacen felt he was just. Now we're getting reasons he might have been on a Higher mission....makes it seem more like it had a purpose.
  21. YodaKenobi VIP

    VIP
    Member Since:
    May 27, 2003
    star 6
    I'll reply to some of this other stuff later, but I was actually informed I would be joining the TF.N Books staff about a month before Revelation was even released. It had nothing to do with my review of that book.
  22. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Well then I stand corrected.
  23. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    I think that the basic idea of Traviss's ideas does have a place in the Star Wars universe, but it certainly would have been better received if it wasn't so heavy-handed at times. That was one of my few complaints about Order 66: she really tried to beat you over the head with certain points (the first part of the Haurgab scene, where she harped on the who "caged nuna" metaphor, did grate on my nerves). But it's still a well-needed perspective. I mean, seriously, how many times have we had characters who are at least wary of the Jedi and who aren't these Dick Dastardly-style villains or total fringe (And I mean John Birch Society-Fringe, not Smugglers and Rogues-Fringe)? Darth Bane doesn't count; he's clearly intended to be evil, and the Jedi in those books are clearly intended to be the good guys. Just about everyone else who does so is a greedy politician or whatever. So, let's see...Gar Stazi, Cha Niathal, Atton Rand...And actually, I thought that Fyor Rodan received a relatively even-handed portrayal in Destiny's Way. But aside from that, I have trouble remembering very many more. Which is a bit of a problem. Most people who don't like the Jedi are portrayed in a very unflattering, one-dimensional manner.

    Does anyone else believe that Traviss's Mandalorian subplot in this series would have gone over better if it had been part of the plot for a trilogy of books describing the actions of the Mandos during the NJO? Traviss wouldn't have had to but up against the Major Heroes of the Post-OT era, and the whole We-Distrust-The-Jedi thing could have been a lot more relevant (with Fett being forced to trust Kubariet in order to aid the NR or whatever).

    I should probably stop now before this begins to ramble or become a Fanfic-esque post.

    Just my two Truguts.
  24. YodaKenobi VIP

    VIP
    Member Since:
    May 27, 2003
    star 6
    Okay, I finally got around to reading the Fury and Revelation posts...

    This is so awesome I don't even know where to begin.

    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh]

    Nice! [face_laugh]

    Absolutely!

    Bravo, Havac =D= Some of your best analysis yet.

    I can't believe it's almost over :(
  25. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Part LXV: Invincible
    In which our hero . . . yeah . . .

  26. PROLOGUE: Jaina is sad. She is afraid. She is lonely. She is in the Shadow Academy. But her bond with Jacen gives her strength. Jacen manages to not be inept, and rescues her. This allows Denning to satisfy his YJK fetish while simultaneously driving home just how badly the character of Jacen Solo has been pissed away. God, he loves rubbing stuff in.


  27. Then he starts every chapter with a terrible Jacen joke. This is sadism on two completely separate levels. Wow.


  28. Jaina wanders around some asteroid doing crap with Boba Fett while the Empire attacks it, trying to provide some payoff for the whole Sacrifice plot. Haha Boba is dumb. Jaina leaves. She rejoins the Jedi, who are hiding out courtesy of Jacen's ex. Jaina decides Jacen needs to be "hunted down and killed". How lovely. So, she goes to the Jedi Council, which hangs out with Han and Leia and Jag when making important decisions because they're fricking awesome like that, and they talk political war stuff for a while so that we can make a smoother transition from the Traviss book, and apparently it turns out Pellaeon arranged for himself to be succeeded by a group of total jackass Moffs. Yay. People mock Niathal and how she's utterly unimportant. So, we'll begin the tally. Pissed away in this book: 1) Niathal 2) The whole plot setup of the last book with the GA split 3) half the plot of the entire series this is supposed to be wrapping up. Han and Leia have wholly inappropriate sexual dialogue in front of everyone because lol Carrie Fisher is hawt. Then finally they get to the point and Jaina's like, "Hey mom, hey dad, I have to kill my twin okay?" Han and Leia get sad and teary-eyed. Have we made progress?


  29. "No. That's not Jacen. Jacen died in the war against the Yuuzhan Vong, just like Anakin did."

    "Jaina, we haven't lost touch with reality. We're just saying that the man you're talking about isn't our Jacen."

    "Jacen was a hero. He killed Onimi and won the war with the Yuuzhan Vong, and then he died of his wounds. Caedus is just the monster who stepped into the hollow shell that was left behind . . . and if anyone here is capable of taking him out, I'll gladly arm the detonator."

  30. Well, uh . . . they're not trying to pretend he was all different until after the YVW was over? That's progress, I suppose. Like fixing the leaky faucet on the Titanic before you abandon ship.


  31. Jaina did not know how to react to the raw hatred in his voice, perhaps because she had not allowed her own anger to play a part in her decision -- because she had decided dispassionately that it was appropriate to put a blaster bolt through her twin brother's head.

  32. I'm so pleased with the narrative tack we're taking. The Jedi argue about just going off to assassinate some dude. Everyone's basically in favor. Luke talks about how for a long time he's thought they need to off Jacen to save civilization and their own asses. Yeah, that's been obvious.


  33. "We have tried arrest, and we have tried politicz. And we have failed because we refuse to see the truth: Caedus remainz in power because he never balkz at the kill. If we wish to remove him, neither can we."

  34. No, you've failed because you haven't actually tried. Do or do not. You did not. You didn't believe it. And that is why you failed. Somebody send these clowns back to Jedi 101.


  35. Luke's all like, "Oh no, I am wanting vengeance because I am furious!" Luke to Han: "To tell the truth, I've been looking forward to running him down." That's my Grand Master! So he assigns Jaina to do it, because some weird dark side bogeyman taint has been invented to facilitate the plot.


  36. It would hurt anyone to discover that his entire family was determined to kill him.

  37. Kenth then forbids Jaina from trying to take Jacen in alive even if she has the opportunity. [face_plain]


  38. Luke then explains that Jacen knows someone is coming after him, but Luke's clouding thi