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Lit We Hav to Take a Trip with Jacen Solo (WARNING: MAY CONTAIN SNARK)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Trip, May 25, 2008.

  1. Darth_Furio

    Darth_Furio Jedi Grand Master star 8

    Apr 17, 2008
    Another great job sir. =D=

    You hit the nail on the head on how this series wasted Jacen Solo, Darth Caedus, the non believable Luke, Jania, and the Jedi. At least Ben grew up a little, even though he became an asassin. Happy Holidays!
  2. s65horsey

    s65horsey Otter-loving Former EUC Mod star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 24, 2006
  3. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 15, 2006
    I actually loved that part of the book. It was pretty much the first time Jacen had actually used something from his five-year journey since Dark Nest. Besides, I think Lumiya's training was more about (manipulative) logic and rationalization than it was physical Sith powers.
  4. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 29, 2005
    Well, that's a separate problem.:p
  5. Trip

    Trip Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Dec 7, 2003
    He did too get a Sith power, remember? He automatically got Sith Battle Meditation when he leveled up to the prestige class.
  6. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 29, 2005
    Well, I ignored that, because "not stupid" was supposed to go without saying.
  7. Lord_Onveh

    Lord_Onveh Jedi Knight star 1

    Mar 10, 2009
    I . . .am sad. I just don't even know anymore. . .

    Thanks Havac. Thanks Trip.

    Then Jaina decides that Jacen is pure evil, and Leia's like, "Way to go, now you finally get that Jacen Solo is a pure evil irredeemable (not that we tried) bastard who you should cut into tiny pieces! Yeah!" Ben rather indignantly points out that this is total bull and they have no way of knowing who's redeemable. And everyone's like, "Haha, kid, we just pick and choose who we want to save. You don't know what you're talking about." Then Allana mentions Jacen scares her, and Jaina basically promises to her that she'll kill her daddy and make everything okay. What. The. ****.

    . . .I think I need a minute to let out a tear.
  8. TheRedBlade

    TheRedBlade Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 17, 2007
    What's the difference between a Jedi Knight and a Jedi Master? Ask me in twenty years!

    Perhaps the best-placed line in all of the EU. Before I go on, I should note that there were moments of beauty and glory in this book. Mr. Denning, if you're reading this (and you're a tremendous good sport if you are), thank you for restoring some measure of ability to this character before putting him out to pasture.

    As Havac said, this book was crushingly sad, but rarely for the right reasons. With Jacen Solo and the rise of Daala died this section of the EU's believability.

    My sense of canon and continuity runs, perhaps, different from most (I really enjoy TCW, for example). I don't mind if the particulars of an event don't match up: the creativity of myself, the posters here, and the guys at LFL have been able to smooth out any number of jarring inconsistencies (for Force's sake, even The Glove of Darth Vader kinda makes sense now). All I ask is that the universe feels right. So long as the internal logic and spirit of Star Wars is maintained, the details can be worked out later.

    The problem here, series and book, is that this sense of self, this internal consistency, breaks down at the end. This wasn't the Jacen I grew up reading, nor was it the man that emerged from Traitor. It wasn't even the same character from Betrayal.

    These weren't the Jedi that Luke had built from the ground up. This wasn't the same Luke Skywalker that never lost faith in his father, the murderer of worlds, even at his weakest.

    And finally, Chief of State Daala. Waru didn't strain credulity this much. The Senate contained literally thousands of politically experienced and ambitious members. The countless member worlds of the GA each must have had some manner of planetary executive. The Caamsi, the Alderaanians, the Ithorians, the Ho-Din, and a thousand other species are admired for their benevolent political beliefs, pacifistic philosophies, and good leadership. Lando is admired for being rich and, more importantly, awesome. But none of these were chosen. Instead, we get a war criminal, a mass murderer, appointed... by who?

    Time and time again we are told that the Republic, with the Jedi as its defenders, preserved peace and justice. Democracy, or at least democratic principles, are at the core of all that Star Wars defined as good. Yet here, at a moment where the author is trying to but some manner of silver lining on all this, we get Tarkin's girlfriend named Queen of Everything by an off-page Star Chamber that decided she was the best candidate.

    I can understand that the franchise was out of compelling villains by the end of this arc, and that Fate of the Jedi needed to be set up. However, Return of the Jedi, The Thrawn Trilogy, and The New Jedi Order all ended in that same fashion. Yet none of them needed to contrive an ominous setting for future books, and the franchise grew and prospered after each one.

    The losses in this book far exceed that of Jacen Solo. Maybe he wasn't the only wounded shell to stagger out of the end of the New Jedi Order. The Big Three era of Star Wars fiction can be said to be in similar shape.

    P.S. With that bit of whinging out of the way, a deep, profound thanks to Havac and Trip for taking us this journey. I have never laughed so much on this board, or been so sad to see a thread close.
    kubricklynch likes this.
  9. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 16, 2007
    Don't worry, there are like four Jacen cameos in older books they still have to go back and do.

    Some day.
  10. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 29, 2005
    You are the taskmaster of Lit, Catherine. I love it. Now make Trip post me the thread he promised me he'd post.[face_batting]
  11. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 16, 2007
    I don't remember if I ever knew what that was. I've been burned out on Star Wars for the last several months due to an overdose on TCW/TOR/PODROT/LOTF/RC zaniness.
  12. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 29, 2005
    It's a project that's come up in #eu. A history of the EU, in terms of OOU publication, and the way it breaks rather neatly down into distinct eras; he's been researching it for a while, and ought to be basically ready to post. It has been promised to be since this summer. I encourage all Lit users to pressure Trip into posting this thread, as it shall be excellent. When it arrives. If. When.
  13. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 16, 2007
    That sounds cool. Maybe when it's done he can finish explaining his theory on Force lightning.
  14. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 29, 2005
    I'd like that.
  15. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 16, 2007

  16. Corusca_One

    Corusca_One Jedi Knight star 3

    Oct 24, 2005
    Great post TheRedblade. =D=

    And a big thank you to Havac (and Trip) who gave us so much amusement (and some genuinely facinating things to ponder) in this thread. Bravo sirs.

    Is it wrong that I hope Jacen continues to get mentioned in FotJ, just so that there can be more snark? :p
  17. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Feb 9, 2007
    Wow, so we're finally at the end of this long and very humorous journey. Despite my distaste for the character, I still wish both the Solo boys hadn't been cut down so early in their lives (compared to all the GCW veterans who are still the center of attention).

    First of all, I just want to congratulates and praise both Trip and Havac- Trip for starting this brilliant idea, and Havac for completing it, and I especially have to praise Havac since he had to go through all the details of LotF and all its horrors, most of which were so wonderfully summed up here. I can definitely say Havac's posts were far more entertaining that LotF ever was.

    Though my favorite part of that last parody had to be:

    That short paragraph just so perfectly sums up LotF for me- it might've had some potential in the first book, and considering the foundation NJO had built, plenty of material to work with, and instead it just... ruined everything with little to nothing to show for it, whereas at least NJO had a strong finish with actual progress. Going by that count, they were down to a quarter of a plot, right? Too bad they couldn't even finish that properly. Oh LotF was a tragedy, but the tragedy wasn't Jacen's fall, the tragedy is how ludicrous that time period has become. Sometimes its an epic journey to follow a character from their birth to their death, which I think applies in Anakin Skywalker and Anakin Solo's cases, but Jacen... I don't miss him that much, but rather mourn the lost potential. Oh well, at least I can look back on it now and laugh at it more thanks to these wonderful posts. Thank you for the very entertaining journey, it was fun while it lasted.
  18. Magnuskn

    Magnuskn Jedi Master star 4

    Jul 14, 2002
    I still don't get why you like the NJO so much and obviously hate the kriff out of LOTF, Havac, although they both had the exact same kind of problems.

    Well, at least the NJO had a somewhat uplifting finish, instead of this black on black disaster. About the only positive thing you can say about it is that Tahiri was redeemed. Although she never should have fallen in the first place.
  19. T-boy-wan

    T-boy-wan Jedi Master star 3

    Jun 6, 2006
    Reading that6 was actually sadder then reading the book. Most of that snark was my actual thoughts whilst reading Invincible. It was sad for the wrong reasons. The Jedi shouldn't have sat and planned an assassination of Jacen. If he had to die it should have been a last minute sudden realisation from Jaina whilst in combat with her brother. A little effort could have changed everything.

    Thanks Havac and Trip for all of this. the last 18 months have been superb.
  20. LittleMissNightsaber

    LittleMissNightsaber Jedi Youngling star 3

    May 2, 2009
    I read that book and thought 'Oh, great Ben's acting a little too grown-up.' And Luke says he's pretty much proud about his 'adult' son. [slaps forehead] Ben's already flirting with girls and have sexual crap with them. Denning, you are sick.
    Leia was acting horny, Han and Jaina were sometimes insensitive, and Isolder was a bit of a jerk to Caedus/Jacen.
    And they can't even bring themselves to break down.- No wonder. :rolleyes: Please don't hate me, but Han and Leia could have been the villains in this series. Oh wait! They were.
    This was awesome=D=
    Oh yeah, the potato chips would have been a better chief of state.
  21. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 16, 2007
    I can't speak for Havac, but a couple things that immediately jump to my mind:

    The NJO produced not just one but several memorable villains, including Nom Anor, the best villain ever to come out of the EU. LOTF produced one utterly terrible villain and crippled another villain who used to be cool.

    The NJO was written by twelve different authors who, for the most part, came in, wrote their books, and left. As a result, some character development and minor subplots ended up falling by the wayside, but the story progressed more or less linearly and most characters' overall development within the series made sense. You'd think that LOTF's three-author rotation would produce better communication between authors and a more tightly plotted series, but instead it resulted in even more ridiculous and bizarre incongruities, most of which involved things as basic as the central characters' motivations and, apparently, memories.

    The NJO was more than just a series; it was an era. And it felt like one. A lot of things happened in that series, and every book, regardless of whether or not it sucked, brought something to the table. LOTF, on the other hand, spent a lot of time spinning its wheels between hardcovers, having Jacen vacillate and look like a tool while the Jedi acted almost as ineffectually as those in TOTJ. Also, Boba Fett's sick for some reason, but he's better now, and here's his dead wife from an obscure comic no one cares about, only she was frozen in carbonite so she's still hawt. What was the point of any of that?

    "Boohoo, the NJO was too dark and full of death. :_|" Yet LOTF managed to kill off almost as many pre-existing characters in half as many books while creating, like, zero new characters to replace them. Unlike the NJO, which created lots, most of whom were never heard from again.

    The Unifying Force is to Invincible what Alien is to AVPR.

    NJO and LOTF both had problems, and some of those problems may have been the same, but they were so much more blatant and plot-central in LOTF that the NJO looks almost flawless in comparison.
    xezene likes this.
  22. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Jun 29, 2003
    There wasn?t much purpose to this book. I liked Denning?s Tatooine Ghost and even Inferno, so I know he could do better than this, but since the entire second half of this series was geared to taking down Jacen, I was positive they were going to find an ALTERNATIVE to that, since? well, there?s not much story otherwise. Revelation was solely based on the ?We?re going to kill Jacen? premise; Inferno was basically just ?Yeah, we killed him without a hitch.? They could have done that in one book and had room to spare.

    This was the main reason I hated this book. And I don?t hate books lightly? I might despise stories like Ruins of Dantooine for lacking a plot, but that?s not enough reason to hate it.

    The Jedi really copped out on this one. Luke could redeem Vader but he couldn?t handle Jacen? Seriously? You know, maybe Valin and Jysella were right. These aren?t the same Jedi anymore.

    If I were a Junior Jedi Knight fan, which I?m not (never read them), I imagine I?d be more upset over the steady defilement of Tahiri?s character than Anakin Solo?s death.

    I?m surprised we haven?t seen more trauma from Allana in later stories about this part. Not from Jacen, but the fact that they KILLED her daddy. I wouldn?t blame that kid for being a little nuts later on. Although maybe it shows from her choice of pets. She?s not the first to keep a nexu around the house.

    In all seriousness, a reborn Trioculus would have been more believable than this. Because even he didn?t go on a half-ass, ludicrous assault on the Republic?s worlds until he lost all his moffships to personal incompetence.

    Good question, that. The galaxy seems to have suffered not only from collective amnesia, but mass delusions of Daala grandeur to believe she was even remotely capable for the job.
  23. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 29, 2005
    If you would like to know why I like the NJO and not LOTF, read the thread. It's all in here. Including why they don't have the same problems.
  24. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Jul 2, 2003

    What am I supposed to say, here? I came in through the YJK. It... it was a small part of me making it through a depression in the mid-90's. Without it, I wouldn't be here.

    I just... why? Why did the PTB feel the need to even turn him villain, turn him Sith? A legacy? A legacy of stupidity? I may have stopped reading with the DNC, but this is where my love for SW died.

    And believe me, I loved SW. I still do... sort of. It's just... no. LOTF, the DNC and yes, even the NJO were all wastes of paper and of continuity. They hurt and opened wounds that will probably never heal. Han and Leia have lost two of their children. One of them murdered by their daughter... and they encouraged it. [face_plain]

    I just... you know what? Never mind. Just, never mind.
  25. Daala

    Daala Jedi Master star 2

    Apr 16, 1999
    Excellent! I have to say, the best Christmas present I've gotten so far.

    Oh yes, the philosophy of, "It's Different When WE Do It!"