Amph Here's Some Money, Go See A Swap Thing: DCU/Elseworlds Discussion

Darthmaul208, I've created a thread to discuss these points, so Slowpoke and Sinister keep their circular argument going well into 2021.

The other thread is a safe space from them.

 

Ender Sai, I know you hate this circular argument thing going in this thread, but it has inspired some great content from you over the months (years?) its been going on. I have, in the past, wanted them to continue arguing solely because I knew you would make great posts about it.

In that vein, I would just like to ask Slowpoke for his opinion about Pa Kent.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/modeled...ianism-of-man-of-steels-pa-kent/#51fa77be5c3e

This one.

 

Those goggles...oy vey. I hope he's just soldering something atm or something and not part of the actual outfit.

That said...I loooove the suit. Very Arkham-ish indeed. In fact, I wish that more subdued suit was what he had won in Arkham Knight instead of that ridiculous armor.

No stupid tank though. Always a good thing.

 

Didn't Batman of Superman Red Son wear Goggles? It's not like it's a "nu thang"

 

Maybe doesn't mean, "Probably yes". Maybe means, "I don't know what the right answer is."

It's called read between the lines.

Jonathan wasn't willing to do anything, because he wasn't there. Clark was and he made a choice and got lucky that there wasn't blowback.

Clark's freedom to choose his destiny. The freedom to be able to live a normal life of his own choosing. To do the things that he is comfortable with doing.

So you'd want your child to become a tool of the government? To be experimented upon? To be forced to work for the government because of his abilities?

Gotta sell toys.

Yet they don't. It's the same logic that allows a pair of glasses to work as a disguise. Note that at the end of the film, Clark destroys a drone to keep his secrets, yet Swanwick doesn't call him Clark.

Not that I've seen. Batman's been the only one to wear goggles.

 

And such question only deserves a solid "no" unless there is something seriously wrong with him.

Where?

And Jonathan was unhappy when Clark did the right thing and only right thing.

One person' freedom is not greater than 20-30's lives.

Yes, compare to sacrificing 20-30 innocent lives.

They do, there is no way they couldn't figure it out when they got Kal El's ship in the Kent house, if they don't, then it means they are utter REMOVED, which means Jonathan's worrying was total garbage.

 

There's nothing wrong with him. Jonathan just doesn't have the answers because this is a complicated thing. It isn't a black and white answer. There's no Superboy answer. No Martian Manhunter to help out. No JSA to inspire him. He doesn't advocate the killing of kids, but what he advocates is caution.

Everywhere. Lex tells us that "He's found us", which refers to Darkseid. We see Lex with Steppanwolf inside the ruins of the Genesis ship and we see the Mother Boxes. This is probably not the first time Lex has met with him. He knows Batman is Bruce Wayne as well. These things he wouldn't know about without inside information.

Because of the consequences. Clark saves the kids and Pete's mother comes in wanting to know how a thirteen year old boy is capable of pushing a bus out of the river. The point of the conversation isn't that Clark was wrong or that Jonathan is mentally messed up, but that Clark needs to be careful with using his powers like that.

And what if Clark is turned into a killer by the government? What if Clark grows up and decides that he's had a enough and decides to take over the world, because of the abuse that he suffered from the government? What if Clark decides as a consequence of that abuse that he doesn't want to rule, but chooses to never use his powers again after escaping?

First, you should not use the R word.That's against the TOS. Second, it means that they got lucky. Lois might have said that Superman hid the ship with the Kents, after Zod arrived and they bought it. The fact that a drone was sent after Clark to discover his secrets and that Swanwick never calls him Clark, either to his face or in front of Lois is proof of that.

 

Complicated? Innocent children's lives were in danger, if that's not black and white, I don't what is, especially in superhero movie.

None of these told us he learned Superman's identity from Steppenwolf.

Yeah, he should let them die and Pete's mother would be in deep sorrow probably for her entire life, right?

"What if " is not a reason, if Clark could risk himself to save these people, there is very little chance for that to happen. Nothing happened after that so it's utter garbage.

Why would Superman hid the ship with the Kent family if he wasn't part of the family? Especially he was at the same age with Clark Kent, same looks and same height. It's a piece of cake for the government to check out how long was the ship in there by take a look at their house. There is no drone in DCEU. The government obviously had figured out his real identity. Again if he could get away with that, then it means Jonathan's worries were nothing but utter garbage.

 

Seriously, Superman's ship was in the Kent house and that was what he came to Earth with. If the government couldn't even figure out that Superman=Clark Kent based on such evidence, then there is 0 reason to fear, or respect them at all.

 

I can see why Ender started the other thread.

 

You need to get off the saving and focus on what would happen next. The world doesn't stop just for that.

That's what read between the lines means. Mother Boxes know things that normal people don't know.

She would have been if Clark had no powers whatsoever and they still died. Jonathan was making a point that until he has something figured out, he needs to be not identified. That there were alternatives to just pushing them out. He could have smashed a window which is more credible and gotten everyone out that way.

What if is always a reason with superhero fiction. That's the whole point in a secret identity. They got lucky once. Luck can only go so far.

How can the government know that the ship was there for thirty three years? There's no evidence that it was. They didn't even know there was an alien living among them until Zod told them there was one. Lois and Martha can lie and say that Superman put it there hours before going in front of the army to surrender. The military doesn't know. That doesn't mean that Jonathan's fears were garbage.

 

Yeah. And it even said it was to have a discussion without these two. However, not being able to understand human communicative cues, Slowpoke joined in anyway.

I made a formal complaint about him.

 

Nothing happened next, nothing wouldl happen next.

Any proof?

But Clark had power, why shouldn't he use it to save people? Jonathan was saying he should let those children die, which is utter garbage.

Not before innocent lives. Superhero always chose to save a bus of innocent children.

They just need to take a look in the house and the forensic experts could easily know how long had that ship been there. WHY would Superman's ship be in the Kent house, if he was not part of the family? Clark Kent went to school so he must be registered, it's hell easy to figure out that Clark Kent=Superman, unless they are utter stupid.

 

There's no way to know that. That's the point.

Do you know what read between the lines means?

Why should he use it to save people? He is under no obligation to do so. Remember in "The Man Of Steel" mini-series, he wasn't using his powers to save lives. He was being a jock. He only chooses to use them to help others because he makes a choice to do so. In the "Earth One" graphic novel, being Superman is the last thing Clark thinks of being.

Clark's not a superhero yet. He's a teenage boy with powers and abilities beyond mortal men, who made a choice but not one that was thought out well enough. He could still save lives, but he has be smart. When he saves the oil rig workers, he disappears afterwards and is believed to have been killed. Clark then moves on and starts a new life elsewhere. When he did it the comics, he made sure not to be seen. Making it seem as if a miracle happened, or that the witness testimony was in doubt.

Why assume that he was living there? How can forensic tests conclude that a ship was there for years?

Maybe because he was friends with the Kents and asked them to hide the ship there? Maybe he hid it there without telling them that it was there without their knowing it.

 

Possibility is not a reason to let innocent die.

So no proof.

Because it's what Clark chose to, and it was the right thing to do it. None of these are part of DCEU.

Then why use some "superhero fiction logic"? He is a teenage boy with a good heart and save people, that's the right thing to do. He didn't and shouldn't put himself before so many lives.

Because the ship he came here with, that's the most logical, and pretty much the only explanation.

By looking at the houses' structure, the dust/plants/all the microscopic stuff could easily detect out how long has it been in there.

How? How did he become friends with the Kent family? The FBI just had to do some basic background check to debunk the nonsense. What maybe? If he wants to hide, why didn't he sink it into some lake or deep forest? Why would he hide it there other than trying to get the Kents into trouble?

None of these made logical sense at all.

The ship was in the Kent family for decades-The Kent family got a son named Clark Kent-Same age, same height and same apperance with Superman-Clark Kent=Superman.

This is the only logical explanation, even ordinary people would figure it out when they see the ship in the Kent house.

 

Yet, Clark was told to do that very thing in the Donner film. He had to choose to let someone die, in order to save someone else. In the second film, he stops being Superman because he doesn't want the responsibility.

Read between the lines means that you have to look at what is presented and discover what is hidden in plain sight. In this case, Lex found out because he was told by Steppenwolf and is working for Darksied to eliminate the one man who can stop him.

Right and he could have chose to not do a damn thing, regardless of what Jonathan said or didn't say.

Where do you think Superman comes from?

He needs to understand the importance of what his powers mean to the larger world. That's why he lets Jonathan die and why he creates the dual identity.

Except there are other explanations that are equally valid.

What does the house have to do with the barn? What plants are in the barn? The floor was not a dirt floor. Dust? It's a barn in Kansas. A blast of superbreath would clean up the dust. What microscopic things?

Kal-El saved Clark's life and they became friends.

What background check can debunk that? Clark was a baby who has birth records that identify him as the child of Jonathan David Kent and Martha Clark Kent. Lois never wrote her piece detailing how she found the mysterious savior.

Because Kal-El didn't think Zod and his crew would want the ship, because they wanted him.

Again, no proof that it was there for decades and Clark could dispense with any possible proof with his powers. There are thousands of people who were the same age, height and general appearance as Superman. And now he's wearing a pair of glasses which has fooled people who have seen both Superman and Clark Kent. And there's no proof that Clark Kent was adopted. Martha could have easily stayed at the Kent farm for the better part of seven months without going into town and thus could pass off that she was pregnant that whole time and gave birth before they could get to a hospital. Jonathan, being a farmer, could deliver a child after delivering colts and/or calves.

 

Seriously.... can you guys take this **** to PM?

 

Where? Also Donner film is not DCEU.

So no proof at all.

After he did the right thing, Jonathan was displeased at it and said maybe he should let them die.

Again, different universe.

What does it mean? Is it more important than innocent children's lives? No.

What? No explanation works, the most logical explanation is that Clark Kent is Superman.

They just need to look on the microscopic stuff on the ship and on the floor to see how long had it been there and how was it moved into the house. No, it can't be cleared with a breath.

How? Why would Superman need saving?

Background check could easily prove that the Kent family didn't befriend some stranger like Superman, didn't put a giant ship in their house in recent years and only had relation with their son-Clark Kent.

It didn't explain why did he hide the ship in the Kent family.

Of course there is proof as long as they pay a closer look to the ship and house. There is no logical explanation other than Superman was part of the Kent family.

But none of them had Superman's ship in their house. The ship was in their house, they got a son who was at the same age, same height and same appearance with Superman. What's the only logical explanation? None of these would work at all. All they had to do is to check on Martha's body and they could easily find that she never gave out birth and a blood/dna check on Clark to seal it while it was already sealed.

 

Holy Sith, it's still going! I just skimmed and the pages are... a bit much. A bit much. Which is British for "way too much." But I'm not here to Britsplain to ya, so, uh, yeah... maybe I'll check back later once this storm has passed.

 

Clark is asked by Eve to go and save her mother first, even though he wants to save Lois and Jimmy. But he promises to save her mom and thus he isn't able to get to California in time. And then along the way, Lois winds up dying because he makes a choice to deal with the larger issue than go look for her. Doesn't matter if it's DCEU or not, there's a history for it.

Read between the lines.

And then he lets his father die. See the pattern.

It serves as inspiration and informs upon this universe.

Not really.

Kal-El's ship is in the Phantom Zone. Kinda hard to look at it. Only the Genesis ship was left behind as it wasn't pulled in and it was never inside the barn. So there is nothing to examine.

Do you understand what a lie is? Superman rescued Clark Kent. That's the lie that Clark Kent, Lois Lane and Martha Kent would tell.

What background check? Do you even know what a background check is and how it is done?

Because they're friends and he felt it wouldn't be found.

Look for what? The ship is gone and there's nothing that Clark couldn't destroy with his powers.

There's no warrant that would justify that kind of physical examination. It's purely conjecture. And Martha has had a still birth and two miscarriages. Enough to get around it. There's no reason to do a DNA test when medical records state that they are related. There's no need to do a DNA test. As to Clark looking similar, again, there's a lot of guys who are the same age and general appearance. Not enough to say anything.

 

So he was trying to save people but not all of them at once, that's a lot different than letting children die simply because die.

Again, no proof at all.

Because Jonathan said NO NO NO, which was also quite dumb.

No, we don't compare different universes.

Yes, all the other possibilities were silly.

They don't have to look at the ship, just the house.

How? None of this would work at all, especially put out Clark when people already suspect him was Superman. The ship was in his house and he looks exactly like Superman.

I do, it's very easy to check out that had you been in contact with someone or not.

Why would he hide the ships in their house other than trying to bring trouble? There are tons of much safer place to put the ship. Why would he try to endanger the Kent family?

Again, this makes no sense at all

Destroy the Kent house? Not likely. Even if it's destroyed, it's easy to check on the ground and see how long had the ship been there.

They all know the ship was in the Kent house, the only logical explanation is that Clark Kent is Superman, none of the other lies make sense at all.

The Kent family tried to hide aliens from the government, and with strong suspicion of Clark=Superman, a DNA check would seal what was already sealed. Where did it say Martha had a still birth?