ST We Must Stop with the Mary Sue Putdowns

I see people saying this a lot. All of the Star Wars movies feature people who are able to do things they shouldn't by a power they do not understand. Anakin was very gifted as a child without training. Luke ran smack dab into the Force and was clueless to his destiny, and with only the mention from ghost Obi Wan, closed his eyes and blew up the Death Star first try. But suddenly a girl does it and we all of a sudden can't accept her abilities like we could Luke's?

I've seen some very derogatory remarks about a woman stormtrooper and a black stormtrooper and how Kylo got beat by a "total Mary Sue".

Star Wars is a galaxy full of DIVERSITY. I have seen negative comments in regards to Disney and their PC agenda.

All I can say is that I would never have expected misogyny and racism from this fanbase. There is no limit to diversity in a spacefarring galaxy far, far away....

 

She was too powerful, too quickly.

 

Mary "Neo" Sue.

 

I'm not familiar with this Mary Sue terminology. I have not used it previously. If it refers to a female character that is unreasonably powerful or skilled, I suppose I can see the merit.

 

Just because someone critiques a female character does not mean they are sexist.

Also the Luke comparison falls flat. Sure, he destroys the DS but he certainly does not defeat the main villain of the saga when he uses a light saber for the first time. But, more importantly he fails a lot. Heck, right at the start he is defeated by Tusken Raiders and he required Ben to save him.

 

He blows up the freaking Death Star on his first run with Darth Vader (greatest pilot in the galaxy) on his tail after training with a blast shield over his face for 15 minutes.

Anakin being a 9-year-old being able to race pods at like 500 miles per hour is also insane. In fact it's far sillier than anything in TFA (don't even start with the "he doesn't have a father").

But heaven forbid a girl beats Emo Vader. It's plainly obvious too that Kylo Ren is not anywhere near the level of a Sith Master himself ... Snoke likely had denied training him fully because he knows full well what happened the last time a Sith Lord let a Skywalker get too powerful and trusted them too much. Snoke is using Kylo, just like Han said, and stringing him along while denying him full training.

With the emergence of Rey however, now Snoke has no choice but to complete Ren's training.

 

Here is the definition from Wikipedia:

A Mary Sue or, in case of a male, Gary Stu or Marty Stu is an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through extraordinary abilities. Often but not necessarily this character is recognized as an author insert and/or wish-fulfillment.

You know who is also a Mary Sue? Luke Skywalker. Farm boy who ends up going into space and destroying the Empire through use of the Force. Most popular epic movies usually revolve around them, but usually they're male and bashed as unrealistic if they're female. It tends to be a double standard and is starting to get recognized as such. As the above poster mentioned, another Mary Sue is Neo.. .who goes from a lowly computer hacker to being the only one who can fight the matrix and win.

So yes, she's a Mary Sue, and its about time.

 

I foresee this thread ending badly...

Remember, almost Xmas people.

Have to admit seemed quick, but not horribly I guess. Ren was pretty messed up before the lightsaber fight so that doesn't bother me too much.

 

I saw a very interesting idea behind why Rey might be that powerful already.

Before I can get into that, I don't think she is a Mary Sue at all. Rey had fighting experience to begin with we see that from the beginning. Growing up on Jakku by herself she had to learn some self defense. Kylo Ren was injured and, as we know from what was quoted in the movie, his training is not finished. Maybe it Just seemed like she was so powerful because he really isn't either yet. Also, the person she saw as her father was just killed, also the situation with Finn. All of this led to a lot of emotions inside of her. We see all the time in movies, and even in real life, emotions leading people to do amazing things out of adrenaline.

But let me get into that theory. I saw a conversation going on about the possibility that Rey has been trained a bit and her memory was whipped before landing on Jakku to protect her. We all know Jedi training starts young. This paired with the emotions of the moment awakening her power (the force awakens), and the possibility of her being related to Luke could have lead to that power.

What do you guys think of that theory?

 

What does diversity have to do with someone thinking she might have been overpowered? There's plenty of sexism and racism in this world but it really is starting to sound like a broken record to suggest anyone who thinks Rey might have been overpowered or that Phasma or Finn were weak characters is sexist or racist. So many people seem to only have tunnel vision on most issues and don't or can't look at more than one possibility.

 

Mary Sues always tend to start out as schmucks and lowly people at the start of the film and gradually 'come into their own' by the end. Remember Neo getting a bug put inside of him? The first showdown basically being a tie and Neo having to run for his life? Right.

Remember Rey getting her ass kicked in the forest outside Maz's? Ren be like.. SLEEPY TIME and simply carried her away. She got flung into a tree in the forest fight. It was only once she accepted the saber and her destiny that she was able to overcome. A Mary Sue in complete progression from scavenger desert girl to powerful force user, getting her ass kicked along the way.

In case you're missing a point here.. there is not a thing wrong with a Mary Sue, and we have plenty of examples in popular films, only male. Nobody mistakes this for Shakespeare, and its good they're embracing the Mary Sue moniker in building female epic heroes.

 

9-year-old winning pod races at 500 miles per hour with no training (what, did he start racing at age 7?) and building protocol droids while being born with no father and blowing up a command space ship with zero training whatsoever ...

Hey it's possible. Meeeeedichlorians!



21-year-old-ish girl (likely a Skywalker) beating up a not full trained, injured Sith = OMG! NOT BELEIVABLE AT ALL! BAD ASS SITH LAWD BEATEN BYZ A GIRL! NO WAY!

Just makes me chuckle. Rey is basically the Star Wars Neo.

 

The duel is very improbable. You can determine for yourself at what point improbability begins to bother you.

These conclusions that Kylo Ren is nowhere near as powerful as Darth Vader are beyond me. The only explanation for this conclusion I can think of is the duel itself. Using the duel to reach a conclusion on why the duel makes sense though, is fallacious.

Rey accomplished feats that would have been far beyond Luke in A New Hope. She used a mind trick that Luke failed to successfully use six years after his first introduction to the force. But, the real problem is the duel. I've discussed this so thoroughly at this point.. could you explain your position more clearly before we begin this?

Do you think the duel displayed a probable outcome? Or are you simply not bothered by the improbability? Or do you think the improbability displayed is not sufficient to warrant criticism?

 

Fewer complained about Neo, that's why it's a double standard. A term best left discarded.

But your stand that it's about darn time - terms aside - I totally agree.

 

Yes, blowing up the DS was impressive. Yes, pod racing is good. But doing impressive things doesn't make someone a sue. Being good at everything and having virtually no flaws does. And in ANH Luke isn't good at everything. He can barely use the Force let alone duel with a light saber and needs help to survive multiple times. You brought up Vader, but it's only Han Solo's timely arrival that lets him survive. Rey, however, is good at almost everything. She is great at flying ships, can speak multiple languages, is a great mechanic, great at fighting, great at dueling with a lightsaber, heck she learns force powers on the spot with no formal training.

Now maybe the next film will give us a good explanation for this like she was already trained to an extent, but as of right now she is certainly borderline Stuish.

 

Dude.. she's a Mary Sue. If you don't believe that, you don't know what a Mary Sue is. The thing is, there is not a bloody thing wrong with her being a Mary Sue, and people don't say word one if the Mary Sue is male. Nobody sat back and said.. 'golly.. this luke guy sure is a mary sue... stupid writing!' because it was like.. THAT WAS SOOOOOOOOO COOOOOOOOOOL. This is popular moviemaking, not rocket science. It often relies on a Mary Sue, and its good they're doing it with females. I got zero problem with it.

 

jj made the force like puberty. Once it activates you have it.

i like her and her character, but i didnt really like that aspect

but every star wars movie has that in it, where i just over look it and move ln

 

Neo very clearly fails his first jump in this movie. It was the classic, "small hurdle" that heros tend to have.

He also dies (Before being reborn as The One).

 

The issue Lastjediknight is that people are using the term in negative light. I'm happy you are not, but you are not the majority. You just said it yourself. People didn't say that about Luke, but they are now.

My counter to the people using it negatively is that we have another two movies coming that could explain why she is powerful quickly.

 

i think people just have a problem that she is using only powers a trained jedi would use. luke and anakin on their own displayed jedi traits, but with out being shown or taught they couldnt mind trick anyone or win a saber fight against a trained jedi

i had no problem with everything else she did

to quote jj's pwn movie, "thats not how the force works"

 

Except she isn't "good at everything" so your analogy falls apart. She gets captured by Kylo Ren intially (failure), and she isn't able to free herself when he's interrogating her (failure).

In fact, her "exploits" in TFA are less than Luke or Anakin.

Luke blows up the Death Star with Darth Vader on his tail, rescues a princess, with 15-minutes of Jedi training.

Anakin blows up the Trade Federation Command Ship, not only races pods at 500 mph but wins the race against Sebulba, and builds a protocol droid with *zero* training at 9-years-old (lol). Oh he can also somehow repairs high end pod racers.

Poe is actually the main "hero" of Episode VII from a central "who was the MVP?" perspective, dude basically takes out a damn weapon planet on his own.

Personally I think it's likely actually IMO that Luke or someone else imbued Jedi training into her, but it's suppressed for her safety. Either or she maybe phenomenally gifted in the Force beyond even Luke or Anakin. And there's nothing wrong with either of those answers.

 

I mentioned above the theory that maybe she has been trained and her memory was whipped before coming to Jakku. Or she went through a traumatic experience and the memories are blocked out. In the moment of the fight some of her training awakens. thought it was interesting. Not sure if this has been discussed yet or how everyone feels about it. We will just have to wait and see.

 

Gives me flashbacks of that recent Jesse Eisenberg movie

 

Luke was an incredible bush pilot before he destroyed the Death Star. He also had a lot of help, from Obi-Wan and Han Solo. He didn't do it alone, and it was within what was established to be his skill set. He is also the son of the strongest force user of all time.

Anakin was the Chosen One. A literal god-like figure conceived by the force itself. He has been around pods his whole life. We are surprised he finally wins a race?

The problem with Rey is that she used every force power there was, and she used them at a masterful level, without any training or education of any kind. Ren was trained by Luke, and then by Snoke. He's been taught both sides of the force and is utterly defeated in every Jedi art by the very definition of a novice. A novice who exists in a canon that already includes supposedly the strongest force user of all time, Anakin, yet not even he displayed her aptitude. And he was literally conceived by the force.

 

For a "Chosen One" he sure got chumped badly by little ol' Ben Kenobi and then hilariously failed about 50 times to aprehend a small group of Rebels.

Who's to say Rey isn't even more powerful than Anakin?

"Bush pilot" is one thing, blowing up a freaking Death Star is something else entirely. That's like saying I'm pretty good on my basketball hoop outside my house so I should be able to beat LeBron James 1-on-1 maybe.

The idea of a 9-year-old racing pods at 500 mph is incredibly silly. Not only that he blows up the Trade Federation command ship that none of the other pilots can get to.

Rey's feats in TFA are actually reasonably less compared to what Luke and Anakin are shown doing with minimal or absolutely zero training.

And Rey had lots of help too ... Chewbacca shooting Ren right in the gut for one, Finn getting a piece of his shoulder, then Ren not really being interested in killing Rey for another.

Actually growing up playing sports, I've seen a lot of much better athletes occasionally get one-upped by relative newbies simply because they weren't taking the game seriously.