Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by CoolyFett, Oct 31, 2012.
ok, explain why that is wrong or you disagree with it.
Acceptance of that mentality is an acceptance, tacit or otherwise, of misogyny.
And you actually need me to explain why it's wrong?
Actually, I agree with this. I have a brother one year younger. My parents were not sexist; dad cooked and mom did yard work besides the "traditional roles." Both worked outside the home (mom after my brother and I got older.)
And yet I grew up aware that as a woman I needed to pay attention to where I was and who was around me if it was late or isolated,even if just going to a movie downtown (far closer than malls in that day). I rarely hike alone and decades later I am still quite aware of what's around me, won't travel miles of rough, isolated gravel roads, worry about what happens if I get a flat out in the middle of nowhere (and yes, I have changed tires on my own before). My dad wouldn't take me fishing out on the ocean because "what if she got seasick?" (Mom said same thing as if my brother did - nothing you can do.)
I still internally when I read about some female posters who have travelled cross-country solo.
Today's females have less gender-based fears (), but reality is there are still societal expectations based on gender (and race, etc.).
In short, to write a good female role one cannot always write a generic role and throw in a female (male with boobs) BUT one can write a role such as either gender can be cast and minor changes made to the role to accomodate the actor.
Heck, that has happened more than once in films.
I'm really trying not to assume here. Could you tell me how the character's sex is going to be a defining characteristic of that character, please?
If it's just a generic actioner, which you didn't say otherwise, women can and should get an equal chance at the role. Women can fly planes, it's a well established fact. Women can be ace pilots, they already have been.
Women could have played Maverick, Goose and Iceman (change the name to Ice). Women can shout "Woo!" and hive five each other.
Unless it's includes specific social commentary on expected gender roles, the characters are mostly interchangeable.
There's little about Pete "Maverick" Mitchell that couldn't be turned into a woman. Change the name, turn "Charlie" into a man aaaaaaand that's about it. Or don't, have Maverick be a lesbian, Kelly McGillis was and nobody noticed. Maverick's penis isn't essential to the character, so don't go there. Pretty sure women can play beach volleyball.
In that quote, it really just sounds like you're saying ace pilots have to be men.
I never read any peered reviewed scientific article dealing with the fact that woman deal with pain better. I think that is completely individualistic. There are plenty of men or woman who are not stoic when it comes to pain. I don't think that has anything to do with gender.
As far as endurance, every single marathon record is held by men. I have read some rumbling about super long distance(ultra thons?) that woman might have better endurance. But the data is rather poor and not peer reviewed.
As far GL with woman Jedi. I could care less about that. I have no idea why anyone would have a problem with it considering they are "luminous" beings.
The "being a woman is so much different from being a man argument" has always seemed very lame to me, being frigging anyone is a very different experience than being anyone else. Being a fat guy is a very different life than being a thin guy, being a black guy in San Francisco is wildly different from being a black guy in Haiti. You take a white upper middle class kid and turned him into a woman and would it change the way he acted and interacted with society? Sure, but if you didn't touch his gender but made him some poor yokel living in the Yukon it'd change his life even more.
Gender is a factor in people's identity and place in society yes, but so is everything else. So many people in the world go through life wondering why they can't meet anybody who understand what it's like to be them despite all these outward similarities.
The idea that gender is the big element that determines all this crap and women are so unique blah blah blah seems just as gendered as society itself.
We are going in circles. Its the same discussion about Ellen Ripley. Again, I'm not talking about roles, I'm talking about characters. There is no reason why you can't do a female fighter pilot in a modern context. But that character is not going to be the same character as Maverick( who is largely generic anyways).
Eh, I'm bowing out - we've reached a dead end, I think.
@Landostrip: you're right about far more than gender affecting one's experiences.
I don't disagree with anything you said. But those are all important traits that define the character.
If Maverick is largely generic, there's no reason why he couldn't be played by a female. Even if he weren't largely generic, there would be no reason he couldn't be played by a female. If he hated women, take that aspect of his character out and he could still be played by a woman.
(Or don't. There are plenty of women who hate other women.)
You also have to address of how people treat her, and make it believable.
Let me ask a question: When you meet a man, do you look at that person as exactly the same as a woman?(or vice versa).
I'm not talking ontologically the same. I mean literally the same.
If a woman lashes out at a man physically or otherwise, isn't that VERY different context to if a man did the same thing? Or the potential consequences of it.
I'd say that a character defined by their traits is a pretty poorly written character. Maybe alright for some stupid blockbuster that people will watch and forget about. But it's not so good for an actually memorable character that can carry a franchise.
How does the character think? How does he act when in a survival situation? Does he agonize over the fact that he's a fat black guy living in the Yukon or does he not care? The character should be influenced by his physical and biological traits, I guess. But it shouldn't be dominated by them.
Unless I'm determining whether the person is sexually attractive...yes. Absolutely.
No. Why would it be?
Sure, I agree with that too. A character has to have more depth than just their traits. But you can't ignore them either, whether a male or female character.
A good chance, in most circumstances, that if a woman hits a man. He won't hit back. Its not always true, buts its true overwhelmingly most of the time. However, if a man does it-he is running a much higher risk of a physical altercation.
You don't see the difference in that dynamic?
I would laugh at the naivety in this statement if it were remotely funny.
It's further ironic seeing how at the early stages of birth we were all women
Really, because every experience I have ever that is exactly the case. With a couple RARE exceptions.
"Every experience I have ever had" does not constitute absolute fact.
I'm sorry you (seem to) have such a dim and stereotypical view of women, but your personal experience does not constitute reality for everyone nor does it necessarily constitute what we should see on screen.
I'm gonna try to get this back on topic.
If a main character in Episode VII happens to be an ace pilot, not Luke Skywalker or Han Solo or another previously established male character, I really hope that character is female, because we've already had plenty of male aces and at the very least a female would add variety. I would be open to having Leia be that ace pilot, she was at least a decent pilot in the OT and presumably she's had decades to practice. Jaina Solo (or someone very similar) would be a perfect example.
We need more Jaina Solos (NJO Jaina Solo) in movies.
True, but neither does yours. We are talking generalizations. It can't be completely dim or stereotypical if any experience that I have had or others I know over my life time share the same experience.
What would be stereotypical would be the statement: Men never hit woman. That is just not true.
Actually I don't disagree. If the female character is Han solo's daughter, I would want her to be the one inheriting the falcon.
The only way you could develop a reliable framework of people's reactions to violence from women is if you hired a woman to punch every single person on the planet. Even then your results would be wildly inconsistent and you'd have to categorize things in very loose terms.
I guess the prevailing attitude I'm seeing is that social dynamics are highly influential on people's behavior and personalities, and I don't think it is. People only obey unspoken social conventions insofar as to avoid being ostracized. It's only a general consensus on what people shouldn't do in public. Otherwise society is only a thin veneer that only hides how wildly random human beings can be.
For example, I guess it could be said that society in the UK didn't have a high regard for homosexuals in the early 20th century. Did this mean that homosexuality was less likely to be acted upon? HA! Probably not.
And herein lies the problem. People are individuals and they cannot and should not be defined by gender, or race, or any other particular trait. Putting people into boxes for personal convenience does a disservice to the human experience, and in this case, the story.
You seem to be saying that "a stereotype is true if I and others that I know say that it is true." I'm not sure how you or anyone else gets to decide that a stereotype is "true because my personal experience says that it is, regardless of what anyone else thinks."
Anyway...female ace pilots. Yes, please. If either Leia or Jaina is going to be in the ST, I'd like to see them flying.
I'd like to see more female Jedi as well; there has been no focus on female Jedi in the movies and very little in TCW, with the exception of Ahsoka.
I wouldn't mind seeing a female Sith or Dark Jedi either. Ventress has been awesome, so was Ax in Fatal Alliance although not to the same extent.
I'd like more female trickster or businessman/schemer type characters. Someone like Lando or Talon Karrde or Thrawn.
I don't really have alot of interest in seeing more female "asskicker" characters. But that's more because I have a dim view of violence as a problem solver in general.
I would love it if the ST focused more on a caper or investigation style conflict with violence only as a part of it.