Speculation we need more women main characters.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by CoolyFett, Oct 31, 2012.

  1. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    Sure, I agree that a person cannot be purely defined by its traits, but it is a part of a character. Ignoring would potentially be a bad thing.
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    No characters of any gender resembling Thrawn, please, but otherwise I agree.

    You do realize how you would sound if you were to make a statement such as "a person cannot be purely defined by being African American or Hispanic, but it is part of a character. Ignoring it would potentially be a bad thing"?

    Racist much?

    Since that would not be acceptable, why is it acceptable to define a character by gender?
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jan 11, 2013
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  3. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

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    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    Its not racist at all. Depending on the type of film, ethnicity could be a a VERY important trait of the character. You ever see the movie "Crash." Not the Cronenberg one.
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Wow.

    OK. No words.

    Let's get back to talking about great female characters before anyone starts on a bunch of stereotypes about black people while acting as if such statements were perfectly acceptable.

    Anyway...I didn't see much indication of misogyny among the PT Jedi; they seemed to train an equal number of women to men and treat the women the same. I would hope to see the same in the Jedi Order portrayed in the ST.

    In addition to those I've already mentioned, I'd like to see a Merida-like character myself. I'm not sure if I mentioned that previously in this thread and I'm too lazy to check, but when the talk started about Disney female main characters, she came to mind.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jan 11, 2013
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  5. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

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    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    Thats asinine and silly. You mean to tell me that the experience of a black kid growing up in the inner city of LA isn't different than a white kid growing up in a suburb of San Fran?

    Your mean to tell me ethnicity is not going to play a part into certain types of films and then you have the gaul to imply I am being racist?
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    In that statement you're assuming that all black kids grow up in the inner city and all white kids grow up in the suburbs, and/or that in the separate experiences you are describing, poverty isn't the factor--nope, gotta be race.

    Nothing to see here, move along.
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  7. Reveen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2012
    star 3
    I'm a big fan of the "right place at the wrong time" kind of character. The one that has a situation thrust upon them and has to deal with it whether they want to or not. But I don't remember alot of female characters that fit that bill. It tends to be either badass female heroes who actively seek to be heroes or female non-heroes without alot of middle ground.

    That's kind of the big problem I have with how "strong" female characters tend to be handled. They often end up being tough, rough, badass, and gritty to compensate for being female. But very few of my favorite characters in fiction are even two of those things.

    The protagonist of Worm is an example of a character who doesn't need to be a hardass warrior or be an obvious badass to be both strong and female.
    Last edited by Landostrip, Jan 11, 2013
  8. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

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    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    Ethnicity is tied to cultural difference as well, and that is my point. They're black children that defy the sterotypical "black experience". There is no characteristics directly tied to someone's skin color. But the cultural relevance of someone's ethnicity could play an important part depending on the type of film you are doing. Its not important in ALL films, but some of them its extremely important.
  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    "Stereotypical black experience"? :rolleyes:
  10. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

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    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    Sure, the experience of being minimalized and the poverty which is usually associated with it. That is why I said stereotypical. There is a whole genre of films by black filmmakers that deal with it.

    However, not every black character would have that experience, I agree.
    Last edited by Zuckuss the Ruckuss, Jan 11, 2013
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    You say "stereotypical" as if that were an acceptable way to view or portray people. That's my point, and probably the crux of our disagreement.

    I find stereotypes grossly ignorant, exclusive of people who don't fit them, at best a disgustingly lazy way to view and portray people and at worst, racist, sexist and/or homophobic (depending on which group is being stereotyped).

    If you're trying to convince me that pigeonholing people according to stereotypes is at all acceptable, you're wasting your time, I'm not going to agree.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jan 11, 2013
  12. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

    Game Host
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    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    I want Nomi Skywalker and I know I'm probably in the minority here but I want her to start out on Tatooine with some type of menial job on board a battered old space station above the planet.
  13. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    No I don't. They are two different things.

    A generalizations would be that most woman do not serve as firefighters. I would be right, that would be generally true.

    A stereotype is saying: all black people are poor. Its not true, its stereotypically true.

    If I said that most black people lived below the poverty line in the united states. That is a generalization. You can prove it with statistical data.
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't see "stereotypes" and "generalizations" differently. The reasons I provided above for disliking stereotypes--the gross ignorance and laziness involved in using them, the intent of excluding people who don't fit them, and the prejudicial nature of them--apply just as much to generalizations.

    Dress up a "stereotype" as a "generalization" and it's still disgusting.

    So again, if you're trying to convince me that either are acceptable, you're wasting your time.

    @Darth Chiznuk, I'm not familiar with this "Nomi" that everyone is talking about, but I wouldn't mind seeing such a character in a menial job, and a mechanic's job would imply that she would have inherited her Skywalker ancestors' skills.

    I don't particularly want to see Tatooine again though, I'm hoping that the main focus is on a new world with some familiar worlds making appearances.
  15. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    1) Nomi Sunrider :p and 2) keep the EU discussion to a bare minimum please.
  16. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

    Game Host
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    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    Nomi was a name used in one of the earlier scripts of ANH and I believe she was basically a female Luke. But yeah I haven't seen many people who want to make a return trip to Tatooine and my second choice would be to finally see Corellia (I definitely would love to see Corellia at some point in the ST).
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  17. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    if you scroll back to a previous post, I explain all that. Its not really the same character, other than some superficial traits(she was more similar to Leia). It was when Star Wars was direct remake of "Hidden Fortress." The character of the general was the main character.

    The idea of a female skywalker comes from treatments of 7,8,9 who took over the "leia role". The dynamic of that trilogy was the relationship of brother and sister.

    That is why I have been speculating on the whole cousins angle.
    Last edited by Zuckuss the Ruckuss, Jan 11, 2013
  18. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    In the spirit of this thread, I suggest George make the following change to ROTJ in the next special edition.

    JERJERROD: Lord Vader, this is an unexpected pleasure. We're honored by your presence.
    VADER: You may dispense with the pleasantries, Commander. I'm here to put you back on schedule.
    JERJERROD: I assure you, Lord Vader, my men are working as fast as they can.
    VADER: Your men? What about the women?
    JERJERROD: We have no women working aboard the Death Star, my lord.
    VADER: ....
    JERJERROD: I tell you, this station will be operational as planned.
    VADER: The Emperor does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation.
    JERJERROD: But he asks the impossible. I need more men.
    VADER: What about more women? I find your lack of equal opportunity disturbing. Perhaps you can explain it to the Emperor when he arrives.
    JERJERROD: The Emperor's coming here?
    VADER: That is correct, Commander. And he is most displeased with your apparent lack of social progress.
    JERJERROD: We shall double our efforts.
    VADER: I hope by doubling your work force by making use of women, Commander, for your sake. The Emperor is not as forgiving of sexism as I am.
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  19. Han Shot First Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2012
    star 2
    What about a black kid from inner city LA and a black kid from a Paris suburb. Would their experiences be identical as they have the same colour of skin? Dangerous ground you are on.
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  20. Han Shot First Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2012
    star 2
    Would an Irish/American and a Irish/Scot have the same character trait's. In fact I'd wager that not all inner city LA black kids act the exact way, like an inner city Stepford wives manner. Mental, completely mental.
  21. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    No that is the point. But ethnicity is tied to certain cultures, in certain societies. Being black would also be very relevant to a movie that dealt with the apartheid of South Africa. A character is not just the traits that they possess but how other people would potentially treat them as well. If I originally envision the character, in that apartheid setting, to be white. Then I decide that I should change the character to be black, that has MAJOR ramifications wouldn't you say?

    But, no, there is no distinguishing characteristics to color of someone's skin in of itself, that is just silly(not what I am saying either). Plus, I explicitly said it only applies to SOME films, not ALL films.
    Last edited by Zuckuss the Ruckuss, Jan 12, 2013
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    You keep making racist and misogynistic statements and then covering them up with "But I was talking about THIS setting in our world in which women and black people are treated differently!"

    The sequel trilogy is not about apartheid in South Africa. It is not about the misogyny condoned in the US military. Your arguments from our world do not work as arguments for why either female or black characters should be or would be viewed differently in the sequels.
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  23. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    [IMG]
  24. Zuckuss the Ruckuss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2013
    star 4
    I'm not talking about Star Wars. I was talking about writing character vs roles. It was a much broader subject matter that I was originally having with Vailary Scott. How you associated that with talking just about Star Wars I have no idea.

    Your hypersensitive and easily offended(which is your right). Your also very quick to throw out words(like sexism, misogyny, and racism) to the point it has no meaning anymore.
    Last edited by Zuckuss the Ruckuss, Jan 12, 2013
  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    LOL. Check the name of the thread, and the forum itself.

    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] Ah, I see. Resorting to personal attacks.
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