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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Weesa Got a Grand Army!! To fight Whom?!?!

Discussion in 'Archive: The Phantom Menace' started by SITH_MAXIMUS, Nov 25, 2003.

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  1. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    Sweden has an army. What for?
    I´ll tell you: Just in case.
     
  2. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    ShaakRider do not, under any circumstances, use actual evidence from the movie to counter the claims of those who defend it.

    You will be squashed.

    Yep.......Gungans and Naboo living in peace...........it's in the movie.

    Why do the gungans have that army again? [face_laugh]

    Lars Muul
    You're comparing Sweden, a progressive, democratic, pacifist society to the militarized gungans? Every male gungan is dressed in military garb. It's like an authoritarian regime.
    No democracy there. Boss Nass rules by decree. That's why they call him Boss Nass.
     
  3. HeavyArms

    HeavyArms Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 28, 2001
    <Sounds like there never was a war on Naboo >

    But there was a perceived threat of the naboo so of course you are going to get a arms build up especially seeing the distrust and hostility between the two peoples.

    After all the US has hunderds of nukes and aside from WWII and experimental purposes I don't think we have ever used them so same for the Gungan army.
     
  4. ElfStar

    ElfStar Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 24, 2001
    We don't need hard evidence. It's just common sense, something Lucas hopes we have if we are to believe the world he has created.

    Any world that would elect a 13 year old as their Queen obviously doesn't operate on common sense. [face_laugh]
     
  5. JediMasterChiefYoda

    JediMasterChiefYoda Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Remember, she wasn't the youngest queen ever, either.
     
  6. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Any society advanced to the degree of communtiy existence and use of metalworking--basically comparable to a late Iron Age culture like the Celts or the Anglo-Saxons of 1 BC Europe--would have armies as a product of inter-tribal warfare and dynastic struggles, and also as defense against threats both real and perceived, e.g. the monstrous sea creatures.

    EDIT: Every male gungan is dressed in military garb. It's like an authoritarian regime.
    No democracy there. Boss Nass rules by decree. That's why they call him Boss Nass.


    Exactly right, ShaneP. Nass is the tribal head/chieftain. I expect there are other Gungan cities, or used to be, which were in the past or still are at war with Otah Gunga.
     
  7. dizfactor

    dizfactor Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    Perhaps Lucas was using allegory here.

    he is, just not the one you're making. rather, he's said many times that the PT is about how all democracies ultimately turn into dictatorships, selling their liberty in the name of security because they're manipulated into being afraid of trumped-up threats.

    in other words,

    the Republic=the Roman Republic Palpatine=Caesar
    the Separatist Crisis=the political disorder of ancient Rome

    or:

    the Republic=the French Republic Palpatine=Napoleon
    the Separatist Crisis=counter-revolutionaries and the hostile European monarchies

    or:

    the Republic=Nazi Germany
    Palpatine=Hitler
    Separatists=Communists and Jews

    or:

    the Republic=the US
    Palpatine=Dubya
    the Separatists=terrorism
     
  8. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Spot on, dizfactor.

    ... the PT is about how all democracies ultimately turn into dictatorships, selling their liberty in the name of security because they're manipulated into being afraid of trumped-up threats

    Uncannily prescient of world affairs, n'est-ce-pas?
     
  9. NeoBaggins

    NeoBaggins Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2003
    CometGreen, you said "I personally don't think the question is of any importance anyway" Thats part of the point. I agree, it isnt. Thus making long winded answers in defense seem kinda crazy. If everyone approached the thread lke "So what big deal" it may have fizzed out. But some of us are trying to squeeze lemonade out of a rock.

    Im sorry if my implications where to say that some of you are mentally unstable. It was in regard to the subject, Sincerly.
     
  10. dizfactor

    dizfactor Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    Uncannily prescient of world affairs, n'est-ce-pas?

    yes, indeed.

    there was a great strip in Boondocks about that...
     
  11. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    TPM's Republic is like the Late Republic of Rome with Caesar out riding around winning battles and then returning home to a ineffective Senate.

    Except Palp's is out playing both sides against one another in a hood.


    When will the German tribes sack Coruscant? ;)
     
  12. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    ShaneP: You're comparing Sweden, a progressive, democratic, pacifist society to the militarized gungans?

    Good point :)
     
  13. Jedi_Master_Radagast

    Jedi_Master_Radagast Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2002
    I take offense to the recent posts that analogously compare our current president of the United States to Adolph Hitler and Napolean. The last time I checked, the United States had thousands of civilians dead on the ground in 2001. This was not started by "Dubya". Interesting to me that you include "Dubya", rather than Bin Laden or Hussein who is easily comparable to Hitler. Also last time I checked, "Dubya" was not crucifying and putting eyes out and torturing his dissenters...can't say the same for Hussein.

    Hmm...who is more like the emporer.

    Why don't you save your biased political opinions for another board, thanks.
     
  14. Cometgreen

    Cometgreen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2002
    "CometGreen, you said "I personally don't think the question is of any importance anyway" Thats part of the point. I agree, it isnt. Thus making long winded answers in defense seem kinda crazy. If everyone approached the thread lke "So what big deal" it may have fizzed out. But some of us are trying to squeeze lemonade out of a rock."

    Ahh, yes. The irony of it all. ;) It is an unimportant question, but it can still be answered. Really no problem discussing it, but nobody should get obsessed over it.

    "Im sorry if my implications where to say that some of you are mentally unstable. It was in regard to the subject, Sincerly."

    Meh, I was probably in a bad mood and took it the wrong way. Either that or they made me do it.

    <_<
    >_>

    Cometgreen
     
  15. dizfactor

    dizfactor Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    I take offense to the recent posts that analogously compare our current president of the United States to Adolph Hitler and Napolean. The last time I checked, the United States had thousands of civilians dead on the ground in 2001.

    yes, one of whom was a friend of mine from high school.

    This was not started by "Dubya".

    well, that's debatable on many levels, most of which belong in the Senate, i suppose.

    i'll just say that 9/11 was retaliation for many decades of US atrocities elsewhere, and that the number of civilians killed in Afghanistan and Iraq as a direct result of US action since 9/11 has long since passed the number who died on 9/11, and that Dubya has grotesquely exploited 9/11 for his own personal gain and for the benefit of his corporate backers to a degree i scarcely would have believed possible a few years ago.

    to get back on topic, GL is interested in using the PT to explore the decay and transformation of democracies into dictatorships with the consent of the people, which he sees as a pattern which has occurred in every democracy ever known and is inevitable in all democracies. i would argue that this is exactly what's happening in the US right now, and i suspect GL would too.
     
  16. Storm2904

    Storm2904 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2002
    i'll just say that 9/11 was retaliation for many decades of US atrocities elsewhere,


    Please name these atrocities of which you speak. How in the name of Allah is America ? promoters of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness ? responsible for 9/11?! Do tell. And please be specific.


    and that the number of civilians killed in Afghanistan and Iraq as a direct result of US action since 9/11 has long since passed the number who died on 9/11,


    Please provide substantiation for this statement. Are you aware of how advanced the technology used by the US military as of December Third, Two Thousand Three actually is in order to minimize innocent casualities? Your tax dollars have been wisely spent.

    The Iraq War was the "cleanest" and most "precise" war in the history of the world.

    God bless America.

    Everybody is entitled to an opinion on foreign affairs, foreign policy, or American status in general. But when you make your opinions public with baseless rhetoric as you did and expect others to listen to it, be prepared for scrutiny and ridicule when your agenda becomes exposed. If you can't back up your liberal espousals, then I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself before cluttering up honest discussion of the true evils (as opposed to imaginary ones) in this world.

    -LucasCop
     
  17. dizfactor

    dizfactor Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    Please name these atrocities of which you speak. How in the name of Allah is America ? promoters of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness ? responsible for 9/11?! Do tell. And please be specific.

    out of respect for the fact that this is the TPM forum and not the Senate, i'm not going to proceed from here to relieve you of the burden of your embarassing ignorance and fully explain exactly how much blood the US has on its hands from the period 1945-2001. suffice it to say that it's a lot, more than enough to render your claim that we are the "promoters of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" laughable. there's a reason i no longer post in the Senate, and it's simply because i don't have time to educate the people who post there, most of whom are grossly ignorant about the postwar record of US foreign policy interventions abroad.

    if you can't be bothered to educate yourself, i don't have it in me to help you.

    Please provide substantiation for this statement. Are you aware of how advanced the technology used by the US military as of December Third, Two Thousand Three actually is in order to minimize innocent casualities? Your tax dollars have been wisely spent.

    The Iraq War was the "cleanest" and most "precise" war in the history of the world.


    well, if the past two years are what count for "clean and precise," i'd hate to see "messy and brutal."

    3000 to 3400 civilian deaths in Afghanistan, and 7900 to 9700 civilian deaths in Iraq, plus an estimated 20,000+ Iraqi civilians injured (a category which includes people who are maimed, comatose, missing limbs, etc). that's a low-end total of 10900 civilian deaths in our "War Against Terrorism" and a high-end total of 13100.

    by contrast, the death toll for the WTC was recently lowered to 2752. that means we've killed roughly 4 times as many civilians as died in the WTC in our quest for *cough* "justice" since 9/11, most of whom are Iraqis and thus totally uninvolved on even the most abstract level with the events of 9/11.

    that's not counting the 2712 Palestinians killed by the Israeli occupation, which, let's face it, we pay for. pretty soon, the number of Palestinians murdered by the Israelis will exceed the number of Americans killed by al-Qaeda.

    and, in any case, a "clean and precise" illegal war of aggression is still an illegal war of aggression. all of the Iraqi deaths, civilian and military are murders, on our collective hands. the coalition deaths are merely self-defense against an invading and now occupying army.
     
  18. dizfactor

    dizfactor Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    <Amazing. The entire Republic of a thousand-thousand worlds has no formal army, even a volunteer one, yet the Gungans, who no one seems to know of, have a big army. >

    Much like the US during its beginning. The states had their own individual militias and the national government called on them to fight under the US banner.


    or like feudal Europe, where each sovereign basically had to call on his noble vassals to form his army when needed, because maintaining a standing army was just too expensive.

    the idea of a centralized, national standing army is very recent, steadily growing over the past couple of centuries and very controversial when introduced. imagine the idea of taking a bunch of healthy young men and paying them to stand around with guns in their hands rather than engage in productive labor (which theoretically makes more money than it costs to house and feed the soldier) if you weren't already used to it, and if you lived in a pre-industrial or early industrial society where surplus wealth just didn't exist on the level it does now.
     
  19. Storm2904

    Storm2904 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2002
    if you can't be bothered to educate yourself, i don't have it in me to help you.


    Sir, I happen to be very well educated. Please don?t insult me.

    Your use of the term ?atrocities? is and forever shall be inappropriately biased in the annals of history, for every action of the United States post-WWII has been executed in the best interest of world peace and prosperity. (That includes Vietnam and the subversion of Soviet influence in the global theater and your allusion to our annual economic aid to Israel which just so happens to be equal to the 4-billion dollars we give to Egypt too on an annual basis ? one of their former enemies.) And sure, you can argue till the cows come home how much aid Israel really gets after including all foreign aid, military aid, and any other form of aid including Kool-Aid, and it?ll probably come out higher than Egypt. But the fact of the matter is that there are entities lying in wait to pounce on a perceived Semitic feebleness that could realistically escalate into a global conflict. That danger alone justifies our motives for détente.

    The problem with global ideologies like yours in today?s world is that your kind has this unreasonable desire that the US must please everyone at the same time. At this point in human history, it is simply not possible to please everyone given the fact that the world is made up of billions upon billions of individuals who are comprised of hundreds and even thousands of differing points of view. Inevitably, a nation?s action, either in promotion for or counter to other nations, is going to result in pleasing some, offending some others, deterring some, and even killing others. I see bumper stickers all over the roads saying ?WAR is NOT the answer.? Yeah? Well, what is? I?d much rather see a bumper sticker suggesting to me what IS the answer because I simply do not have time in this world (and my children's futures, God willing), for persons who find it imperative to tell me what is "not" the answer. In this war on terrorism, we?re dealing with irrational people. Sometimes the only way to fight fire is with fire. These are not logical people who will accept communicative displays of affection or any other rational forms of treaties. Most of these despots ? and I?m speaking primarily in relation to the radical Muslim fundamentalist terrorists ? will only be truly happy not when the Star of David is erased from their perceived Holy Land of Allah as you would think, but after every Jewish soul and privileged supporter is wiped clean from this earth. These underprivileged tyrants have very little to live for in this day and age, for they have come to the realization that their current usefulness to humanity is but limited to selling the precious commodity of oil and creating scapegoats to substantiate themselves. Negotiations are simply not a reality with these autocratic extremists, nor their constituents, nor some of their regional and cultural brethren. The US fights these wars in an effort to remove the head from the serpent?s body.

    The reason why the United States has taken so much controversy following WWII, and in particular after the Cold War, is that this country happens to be the only true remaining superpower left in the world. We are the only country that has the ability and the will to deal with this irrational chaos. That notion frightens some people ? primarily because it is an instinctive part of the human condition to be suspicious of the motives of others who possess the might, the drive, and the influence to dictate the affairs of others who are less privileged. Where will America?s motives and influence end, they ask? My only answer is that I can unashamedly admit that I am glad it is my country ? a land founded on morally sound and fair ideologies, freedoms, and rights ? that is directly affecting the global culture and order rather than a despot such as Saddam Hussein or a psychotic usurper such as Kim Jong-Il.

    [b
     
  20. Cometgreen

    Cometgreen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2002
    So uhh...how 'bout them Gungans?

    Cometgreen
     
  21. GrandAdmiral_Frank

    GrandAdmiral_Frank Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Maybe they fought other Gungans or people it is a planet and there is more than one place or city. Also they live under water with gigantic water creatures, they probably train with them. Hell they might even train each other like martial artists.
     
  22. MetalGoldKnight

    MetalGoldKnight Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    "You are entitled to your critical opinion of America ? the same country whose liberties and opportunities have made you the person you are."

    The same government that repeatedly tried to screw me and millions of it's other citizens over in life? Yes, I agree this country's policies have had a part in shaping who I am, and not for the best either.

    "I can appreciate that. I am only curious to know, though, exactly what you may be doing about your grief and malicious disdain over America?s foreign policy and apparent amorality beyond your anonymous postings on a silly messageboard."

    By spreading the seeds of rebellion he is helping. If we truly do live in a democracy (which is debatable) then helping his ideals take root will eventually be a part of causing social reform within our government. After all, if we were all 'blind idealists' there wouldn't be many problems in the world, would there?
     
  23. CubeNES

    CubeNES Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 2, 2002
  24. Storm2904

    Storm2904 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2002
    The same government that repeatedly tried to screw me and millions of it's other citizens over in life?


    Huh? All I can say to that comment coming out of left field is that one of the perks of being protected within the tenets of liberty and justice for all is that you may leave it at any time for a better life elsewhere when you feel you are being screwed so badly.

    Americans and the rest of the citizens of the free world are some of the most privileged inhabitants of this world. Foreign despots and tyrannies have coveted our successes and quality of living and have historically stopped at nothing to further themselves (drug cartels, Korean and Iranian nuclear proliferation, embassy bombings, hijackings, the Holocaust, Korean war, Chinese human rights violations, WTC, Berlin Wall, etc?) by questioning the free world?s moral standing and countering influence. In the past century, these leaders have made the choice to denigrate a free society through autocratic means (terrorism) and regimented means (socialism and communism) in their selfish quest to maintain power, wealth, and status while sacrificing the health, safety, and freedoms of its own citizens and nearest neighbors.

    Apparently they have succeeded in brainwashing even you; we are to blame for their anger and resentment. We deserved the death of thousands of innocent civilians through the use of our domestic and civilian aerial transportation system. It must be so confusing for you to consider, though, that governments like France, Spain, the United Kingdom, Turkey, Israel, Germany, Poland, Japan, and Russia can come to a mutual understanding with the United States when at some point in their history they were all a sworn enemy with another in that list.

    The United States of America is the Great Experiment that has been the success story that nearly every oppressive institution since WWII has tried to subvert and dismiss either directly or indirectly. Who would have thought just 300 years ago that a country made up of hundreds of millions of people could peacefully govern itself under ?inalienable human rights? without a king in which its elected officials serve under the law. The same law that was created by the people, for the people.

    It?s truly fascinating if one stops to think about it. But apparently ?too good to be true? for liberal idealists like you who think America is to blame for the evils of others.

    By spreading the seeds of rebellion he is helping. If we truly do live in a democracy (which is debatable)


    That?s right. We live in a republic. Not a democracy. It reasonably protects its conservative citizens from questionable liberals with fanciful ideals and seeds of rebellion against a strong and healthy union that is validated and thriving through foreign diplomacies like free trade and external alliances like NATO and benefiting from peace with the rest of the free world. Votes on ballot referenda are really the only times when citizens have a direct effect on legislation. The foreign policy of the USA since the end of the last world war was a result of the educated actions of you and your ancestors? elected politicians and diplomats and their allies. By the definition of a republic, you have no one to blame but yourself for your perceived guilt. If it?s too hot, get out of the kitchen.

    Abraham Lincoln once successfully squelched an uprising over perceived independent civil rights. Just as the Confederacy concluded nearly 150 years ago, if rebellion is what it has come to now (isolationism versus moral preservation), then the Great Experiment is a failure.

    -LucasCop
     
  25. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Gee. So glad we're all back on topic now. [face_plain]
     
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