WEG No Evil SW character clause.

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by Boba_Luke_Duke, Apr 9, 2004.

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  1. Boba_Luke_Duke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2004
    I've been flipping through my old collection and started to notice a pattern. The WEG SWRPG frowned upon playing as villians.

    GG:10 (or was it 11) Criminal Organizations - provided no crime templates on purpose.

    Heroes and Rogues - warned that imperials should be punished for doing bad.

    There was no option to play as storm troopers. A ton of fans wear storm trooper armor. I think players would have been interested in playing as storm troopers. As far I know there were no templates for them and most imperial officers.

    What was so wrong with being bad? It's was a game. Shooting ewoks for sport should be encouraged.
  2. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    You missed one of the earliest sentences in the introduction. StarWars is a game about HEROES! Players weren't encouraged to be morally bankrupt, dangerously psychopathic, or complete sociopaths. I've said it before, if you want evil, play D&D or Cyberpunk. Both are better suited to it.
  3. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    Yes, stormtroopers and criminals build up Darkside points. Eventually, they'd turn to the dark side and become villans for the GM to use against the party.

    Do you really want to go up a gainst a charater as tought as the one you created? Then add that the character now has several dangerous psychosis? Do you want to be responsible for unleashing that on the universe?

    If so, you are playing the wrong game.

    In addition to those already mentioned, there's ShadowRun, Whitewolf, and The Nightlife.
  4. Boba_Luke_Duke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2004
    Ah but you were allowed to play as pirates and bounty hunters. Both types of characters could easily get their hands dirty.

    You had more options to make a wannbe Boba Fett then a wannabe be Sandtrooper or Admiral Piett.
  5. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    Pirates & bounty hunters are not necessarily evil.

    For the pirate, think swashbuckling Erol Flynn type. Either that or the Privateer. See Pirates & Privateers books and Far Orbit Project book.

    Bountyhunters are freelance law enforcers. Some work for criminals, but many go after legitimate, legal bounties posted by the recognized government.

    Now, if your pirate goes murdering the crew after they've surrendered, or your bounty hunter kills civilians between him and the target, you'll build up DSP nice and fast.
  6. Boba_Luke_Duke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2004
    Say a bounty hunter sees a legal 'dead or alive' bounty is running. Since the player knows the target is armed,dangerous, has a history of violently resisting arrest and will likely offend again they decide to shoot them. For a jedi or a force sensitive character this would be considered an evil action. A non force sensititve hunter might be able reason their way out of this with their GM. "He would have murdered more babies if I didn't stop him, etc."

    Take a squad of Snow Troopers charging Echo Base. They see a rebel soldier running. One of the Snow Troopers raises his rifle and shoots him. Is not a rebel an armed, dangerous threat that will likely offend again just like the bounty above?

    True if a bounty or rebel that threw their hands up and yelled "I surrender" the Snow Troopers would be more eager to blast them instead taking them prisoner. That's not to say that the BH won't do the same thing if they for some reason don't have the means (not enough food maybe)to bring them in alive.

    A self employed gunman going after the enemies of the empire isn't all that different from employees of the empire doing the same thing.
  7. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    Yes, but a bountyhunter isn't necessarily going after Rebels. More likely he's going after murderers, vicious pirates, and other dangerous criminals. That's what he does.

    Is a bounty hunter going to try to take on a whole rebel base? No way. Not even a small outpost. He might track down a single operative and finger them for the empire to come in.

    Of the stock templates, bounty hunter is the most grey, which is why it is the only stock template which cannot be force sensitive.

    Either way, this does not change the fact that the WEG game intends, from the very start, for the players to be HEROES, not villans. If you want to do a villans campaign, create your own house rules.
  8. Shadowen Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 11, 1999
    star 3
    Bah.

    In the Star Wars universe, starting at about Episode III and moving onward, the most famous, highest-paid bounties tend to be political prisoners--i.e., Rebels. This drops off slightly after Episode VI, but only in about half the galaxy, until it gets on to about 15 years after Endor.
  9. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    Actually, after the Imperial Tax Machine gets it's cut and the proper Permits are paid for, it's not really as worthwhile as can be. In fact, Crime bosses probably end up paying better in the long haul, as they pay cash, and aren't as bitchy about stuff like sector permits.
  10. psychokillermike Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2002
    star 1
    Playing evil characters is great. You don't have the problems of morallity to deal with unless you incorporate that into your sessions. WEG was limiting it self by not encouraging people to play "bad guys".
  11. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    WEG was limiting it self by not encouraging people to play "bad guys".

    Gee, did you not notice that the Heroes&Rogues book had templates for playing imperials? Not storm troopers, but officers, nobles, medics, and spies. Yeah, that's really limiting.

    Besides which, I do not know of a single RPG that encourages playing bad guys. Most actively discourage it. (Probablly some way to appease the uptight, mid-west biblebigots who think that D&D is the devil's tool.) WEG just had rules with consequences.
    The only other game I can think of that did this was the Ravenloft supplements to D&D, which essentially copied WEG, but added special effects. Whitewolf and Nightlife also had consequences for "dubious" behavior, but they were more minor.

    I was in one game where we raced to see who's character would go over to the dark side first. Then the GM used the characters we'd created against us next campaign. Damn, that was nasty.
  12. Boba_Luke_Duke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2004

    Gee, did you not notice that the Heroes&Rogues book had templates for playing imperials? Not storm troopers, but officers, nobles, medics, and spies. Yeah, that's really limiting.


    Those templates are bit limiting by ingoring Movie Imperial templates. Who really wanted to play a COMPNOR (cough cough Hitler) youth, Diplomat, Noble, Morale officer, Protocol officer? You see the movies and want to play characters based off movie templates that don't exist without creating them yourself. The exception being the TIE pilot and the Ground Vehicle Commander (that doesn't even come with a ATST or an ATAT). A good portion of the Imperial templates in that book are members of the Imperial system and not the military.

  13. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    Gee, well, building templates is hard...
    18D divided among 6 stats.

    Start with the basic info in the books for Stormtrooper, Imp Navy Officer, or whatever you want to play, and beef them up. At officer level, you're going to have a bunch of individuals with similar training, not a buch of grunts.

    Stormtrooper:
    Dex: 3d+2, Kno: 2d+1, Mec: 2d+2, Per: 3d, Str: 4d, Tec: 2d+1
    Equipment: Stormtrooper armor, E11 Blaster Carbine, 1 grenade, comlink (built into helmet), synthcord & grappling hook (on utility belt), utility belt, imperial ID.
    Skills: 2d in blaster, 2d in dodge, 3d to spend on individual specializations.
    Note: this is far beyond the std stormtrooper. This is someone who will be promoted to mastersergeant or some such very quickly, if not already, unless the character is "promotional prospects: comical".

    ScoutTrooper:
    Dex: 3d+1, Kno: 2d+1, Mec: 4d, Per: 2d+2, Str: 3d, Tec: 2d+2
    Equipment: Scout armor, Blaster Carbine, Blaster pistol, comlink, utility belt, speederbike, imperial ID
    2d in repulsorlift operations, blaster, and vehicle weapons, 1d in repulsorlift repair.
    Note: again, this is exceptionally buff compared to your average scout.
    Alternative: you could use the swoop-pilot template in H&R and just assign imp equipment.

    Imp Navy Lieutenant:
    Just use "former imperial commander/officer" template in the basic book. If you want to customize the stats a little, subtract a pip or a whole d from one stat, and add it to another, keeping in mind the human racial min/max stats of 2d/4d. Assign skills based on that officer's area of expertise. Flag officer would have high command and possiblly bargain skills. Navigator would have planetary systems and astrogation. Capital ship piloting as needed. Maintenance would have 2d in at least one tech skill. Doctor would have 2d in first aid and look at surgery.
    Higher ranks are going to have skills in bargain in order to kiss up to their superiors for that promotion.

    Just because the equipment isn't listed on the sheet doesn't mean the character doesn't have access to it. The ground forces commander doesn't own the ATST, but on missions, one will be assigned to him.

    Do NOT underestimate the value of the COMPNOR youth. I have used them to mercilessly harrass parties. At first, they thought I was using the "Kid" template for the character. Bhuwhahahahaha!!! The other imp templates have come in very handy.
  14. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    WEG was smart for making it a rule that once a PC went dark, he became a NPC villain. Besides, if a group wants a Dark campaign, they can always make some house rules.

    StarWars has always been about heroes, heroes defeating Villains that is. Sure the heroes may become tainted or the like, but through all of the gunk, there is good in his heart.(AKA Han Solo)

    A perfect example of this would be my opinion of Anakin Solo. Despite how negative I am about the boy, he was StarWars, through and through. I personally think he was tainted, but was he dark? who knows, but that isn't the point, Anakin was the classic StarWars hero. Reckless, brash, arrogant, foolish, and brave. But what may I ask was Luke Skywalker in the OT? That is why Anakin was proclaimed by many to be the next "Luke Skywalker". Not because of power, leadership skills. He rode the razors edge of the force, willing to do anything for the sake of the ligh and his loved ones. Thats why i loved the Edge of Victory Duology so much, it didn't even contain my favorite characters, but that nastalgic feel that I knew was starwars made me enjoy it. The NJO didn't pick this feel back up until their last novel TUF.

    This is the type of character WEG was trying to promote. And when a player such as this fell off the razor's edge and into the abyss of the Darkside, it just makes it all that more dramatic.

    I encounter this "Player cruelty" problem with a friend of mine who is always hell bent on being as dark as possible. But under WotC, it doesent matter, he just burns off his DSP with his FP. Though he doesen't really get to do many moments of "Dramatic heroism" ( ;)) , it doesen't matter because his Force skills are so blooming high he doesent have to. Campaign ends too quick, no dramatic story, he rules the day. What fun is that? Fun, and drama, is coming into a final confrontation with a Darksider who used to be one of your groups PC, -who absolutely dwarfs everyone in power- in a ultimate climax of heroics, for the fate of the Galaxy.

    Thats my starwars.

    -Jabba out

    EDIT NOTE: Just in case, Im not bashing WotC, I just didn't agree with this aspect of their superb RPG. They did however mention the old WEG games rule, as a viable option for GM to use, for that, i commend them.
  15. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    Solution to the WotC system: don't let players repent DSP with FP. Make them role-play it!

    To solve problems with one player who was constantly cheating his die rolls, we made a house rule that all rolls had to be witnessed by at least one other player. "It's a 3.5 rule." He fell for it.

    My point is, WEG didn't make it impossible to run an imperial or Dark-side campaign, but it just didn't encourage it.
  16. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    The rule we always adapt for WOTC is that players can choose to spend ONLY 1 of their current FPs to burn DSPs.

    After that, the only way to get rid of them is to perform an act of dramtic heroism that would ordinarily earn them a FP -- and they can choose to subtract 1 DSP instead of gaining that FP.
  17. JediBendu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 1999
    star 3
    Boba Luke Duke,

    I can't help but think you missed the point of the only heroes thing. It means you play the good guys. If you choose to play a stormtrooper, then sure as hell you're gonna quit the legions before the end of the first session.

    Star Wars isn't about morally grey characters. it's about heroes. It's movies about heroes. And that's what WEG chose to emphasise with their games, right down to the havng an opening scrawl and cutscenes through the games.

    It doesn't mean that your template gives you a get out of jail free card.
  18. Boba_Luke_Duke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2004
    I have about 50 of the books and read each one of them. I know the rpg was created so that you should play heroes but to me that's limiting your options.

    Playing evil imperials or cutthroat criminals was an option that wasn't made fully avaliable (without writing your own additional material)and highly discouraged.

    We know that movie focus on the "heroes of Yavin" but think of all the cult/fan boy following type characters. Those characters tended to hang around the villians or were villians. I'm sure enough people would have enjoyed playing the villians as well.

    Between dancing with Ewoks/Jar Jar or shooting them what would be more fun?

  19. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    Well, that was where you could be creative.

    I've long felt that the ewoks were grossly misinterpreted as being just cute, cuddly teddybears. Remember: they were perpared to BBQ Han Solo and Luke Skywalker and then eat them. This is not the behavior of cutesy teddybears, but ferrocious proud (and primitive) barbarian warriors.

    As for gungans, there is no redemption, and they should be killed on suspician of sighting. See the WEG rules for Ep1 that were posted in this forum a long time ago.
  20. JediBendu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 1999
    star 3
    Between dancing with Ewoks/Jar Jar or shooting them what would be more fun?

    Whilst shooting them might be fun, it just isn't Star Wars.

    The evil characters are the bad guys, the dubious characters either turn out to be evil, or have a heart of gold.

    Mara Jade, fan favourite, is a good character. Kyle Katarn is a good character. Both are complex and wortyh playing. Boba Fett is not a good charcter, he's a suit of armour, a fanboy wet dream based off about 3 lines. You wouldn't be playing a character, you'd be playing a helmet.

    The star Wars universe isn't a very complex place. You shouldn't be playing there for the kills, you should be playing there for heroic adventure. To want to play dark you are completely failing to get what Star Wars is about.

    If you want to play dark, play World of Darkness, Shadowrun or some other game. Star Wars always has been about the heroes, to play it otherwise is to do the game and the spirit of the universe a disservice.
  21. DarthArraKul Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 2
    my PCs have a fear of the darkside left over from WEG..

    i used a modified version of the DSP rules... i did not take a character away the second the slipped over.. i waited to see where it would go... sometimes i even let the player become the new nemisis for the group...(( there is nothing more fun than watching the same player enact his now evil plans)).. all in all , i liked to keep them on their toes... never knowing when i would take the character away..

    the dark side always came with a high price for the character
  22. Dr_Steven_Magnuts Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2004
    Hey, I actually played a force sensitive SAG Group Youth in an evil campaign. And a PC got taken out (in part) by one in another.

    It sounds like some of you folks need to play Warhammer FRP.
  23. HansHunkyChest Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2003
    star 1
    Morality is an entirely abstract and artificial concept. Nature is not moral, nature is survival of the fittest by any means necessary. Morality then is not a natural state of being which makes it difficult to be moral and "good".

    In terms of gaming, the universe is evil and the protagonists have to be good despite their natural intentions to serve themselves. This is what creates conflict and makes for good role play! There's a reason all easy and seflish paths lead to the dark side, those are the roots of evil.

    As such there isn't much of a challenge in playing evil characters in an inherently evil universe. The real challenge lies in playing good characters in an inherently evil universe. This is why WEG discouraged playing evil characters, there's no real game if everyone is playing Stormtroopers and Imperial Officers. This is also why there's no Alignment system in WotC's SWRPG.

    It is fine to allow a character to do evil things every once in a while, not everyone is a cookie cutter super hero. It is also allowable for a character to turn entirely evil. I however never allow players to have entirely evil characters. If a character is turning evil they can either be redeemed on their own or with the aid of the other PCs or turn entirely evil and become an NPC. A player with an evil character is no fun to have at the table unless you specifically want them to play an evil character. I had a player that simply played evil NPCs extremely well so I'd have him play the session's antogonists.
  24. Boba_Luke_Duke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2004
    Was I the only one that said sure I don't mind being the indian in cowboys and indians or the robber in cops and robbers?

    Villian in starwars tended to have the best outfits. It makes sense for players to want to try play as the villians. Yeah Starwars is about the good guys but that still doesn't mean that there wouldn't have been interest in playing the bad guys as well.
  25. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    It would seem so.

    And I disagree about the wardrobe too.
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