Lit Were Classes a Mistake?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Protectorate, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. Protectorate Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2013
    star 1
    From an in-universe perspective, do you think that if Luke could go back to the founding of the Jedi Academy, that he would abandon the concept of classes of Jedi? Obviously as more Jedi were promoted, Luke went back to Master-Apprentice type training (OOU the prequels are to blame), but with hindsight, would Luke have been better off training one apprentice at a time, even if it meant a slower rebuilding of the order?

    On the one hand, within Luke's first class, three of its members fell to the dark side: Brakiss, Kyp, and Gantoris, which can perhaps be tied into Luke's inability to give enough personal attention to each student. Additionally, post-founding of the Academy, Luke had birthed three genocidal maniacs (Dal Konur, Kyp, and Kueller) and two major Imperial threats to the New Republic (Desann and Brakiss).

    On the other hand, the quick rebuilding of the Jedi Order was a major factor in defeating the Yuuzhan Vong and perhaps indirectly establishing legitimacy in the New Republic government.

    From the most recent Insider fiction, Hammer, we can perhaps see why classes were a bad idea for the OJO. The members of the Agri-Corps and other Jedi dropout organizations that we've seen, including Obi-Wan Kenobi, are very resentful of not being chosen, opening themselves up to the dark side. Is one-on-one personal attention a necessity in training Jedi?
    Barriss_Coffee and Iron_lord like this.
  2. _Catherine_ Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    I don't know, but I always liked how the early NJO had memorials on Yavin 4 to however many students Luke had lost at the time, then later sources added more dead students so now it looks like Luke completely forgot about them.
  3. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    I don't think so, no. That would've left the Jedi even less prepared for the Vong than they were, with even smaller numbers than the hundred or so Knights they had.

    The way the OJO went about things was just all wrong, putting a time limit on when a student could be taken on as an Apprentice, when there'd never be enough willing Masters for everyone to be a Jedi Apprentice anyways. Not to say the various corps didn't serve a purpose, and weren't necessary, but it shouldn't have been a type of punishment for a student failing to be picked. Moreso a choice.
  4. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    of course, that is why there is a padawan with every master. early classes like what Yoda did are probably necessary, but when they get old enough, if they have the talent, they get paired with more experienced jedi. With 100,000's of candidates, you just can't go one on one completely. For Luke, it might have been better, but the force was moving him to do more, and faster. It's a good thing too with the Vong coming
  5. Darth_Henning Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2007
    star 3
    Would it have been a better system? with higher quality results? Quite possible. But even if Luke took a mere 3-5 years to train each apprentice, that would allow him to train at most 10 students in his lifetime. Should any of those die, or not train their own students, or abandon the order, there would be no Order after Luke's death.

    Being the only living Jedi with knowledge to pass on, he had to find a way to increase their numbers more rapidly, so classes were really the only option.

    Keep in mind, that though his training with Ben and Yoda was very short, he did a lot of investigation and research into the old Jedi for almost a decade before forming a new Jedi order so he has some idea of what was going on. And he then relied on those students he produced to gain more information which he could use to improve and refine his teachings.

    Without a larger introductory group made by classes, a new Jedi order would never have been formed.
  6. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4
    I think Luke had to have classes, but maybe not like a McDojo kind of training. I mean, each of those first 12 should have had a significant amount of hands-on training time. Traditionally in martial arts you would have group classes, but often solo training one-on-one with the master. Kam got a lot more face time with Luke than some of those other early students. How much one-on-one training with Kyp did Luke do after the Exar Kun affair? Or with any of them? And once they were promoted to a certain level, each of them should have had a group of students etc etc. You'd still have those classes where people are training together, as we already had. I think maybe there needs to be more detail on that period and the training Luke engaged in. Right now it just seems like a hippy commune with lightsabers. Heck, reading YJK to my son I noted how rarely those kids were actually written to be in classes. They were like Jedi unschooled. Just running around Yavin 4 on their own and encouraged to experiment. Almost no hands-on training with Uncle Master Luke because he seemed to never be moonside in those books except for Jedi Under Seige.
  7. Protectorate Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2013
    star 1
    Well, with only taking one apprentice at a time, I'm sure the "screening" would have been more intensive, only taking students that would train others. Also, I think you're overestimating the time it took for Luke to train his first class.

    Luke started the Academy in 11 ABY, and by Darksaber, in 12 ABY, he was already promoting three of his trainees to Jedi Knight. So at the most, he took around two years to train one student.

    Well, we know that Streen, Tionne, and Kam stayed to teach, but by The New Rebellion, we have Luke training a class of 30 students in telekinesis before being called away. Definitely not as hands on as it could, and probably should, be.
  8. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    I don't think so. Even one-on-one training isn't infallible. It's also a bit ridiculous to assume a student 'falling' is due to the teacher.
  9. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    Which was specifically due to there not being any other Knights in the galaxy, but a large demand for there to be. As seen years later once there were more teachers, and the Academy was really up and running, it took many years for students to be Knighted, not even taking into account an Apprenticeship. The Solo's became official students in their mid teens and weren't knighted til there 20s. It's not different than how Luke himself really only had a few weeks of rushed, formalized training, due to a crisis going on.
    Last edited by DarthJenari, Jan 29, 2014
  10. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Also remember that much of Luke's material on the old Jedi order came from the crashed Chu'Unthor, (the old one) which was designed as a flying classroom, rather than for Master/Padawans.
    mJedi775 likes this.
  11. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Maybe the problem was that Luke chose a bit too many students who were not mentally balanced enough?
  12. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Would it have been better in the EU as it exists and the stories that were told? No, there wouldn't have been enough Jedi.

    Would it have been better from a storytelling mythology perspective, of Jedi Knights as these super rare heroes? Possibly, as that's how I originally expected them to be from the OT as I always figured if two darksiders can rule an Empire, that you didn't need armies of Jedi as the arm of the government.

    But since that wasn't the universe that Star Wars grew into, then I've gotta stick with what happened being what needed to happen in the context. This is though while I loved Knight Errant, as Kerra showed what a single Jedi can achieve.
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Jan 29, 2014
  13. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Well, he didn't have much of a selection at first, but over time the reputation of his academy grew and more students started showing up.
  14. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4
    I like to think of many of Luke's early students as having been particularly inspired. Kyle Katarn, for instance, was even less tutored than Luke but had the same blessing to have a Spirit Master in Qu-Rahn.
    Ulicus, Revanfan1 and DigitalMessiah like this.
  15. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    One (namely, me) might argue that Kyle Katarn achieved a similar level of prowess as a Jedi Knight as Luke did by the completion of his training, which is something that was controversial among the fandom (as I knew it) of the time, that he could defeat seven Dark Jedi with less training than Luke, especially considering that Lord Jerec was said to be nearly as powerful as Vader, and having tapped into the power of the Valley, may have bridged that gap and surpassed Vader at the time Katarn confronted him.

    In Mysteries of the Sith, Katarn is depicted a fully fledged Jedi Master, or at least a Jedi Knight able to take on an apprentice, similar to his contemporary Luke in Dark Empire.

    It's unfortunate that the EU jumped around in the first RL decade between 4 ABY - 19 ABY at random, and that 10 ABY with Luke's academy was depicted relatively early on in 1993. If it was something that came toward the end of the decade, it would have had a lot more EU characters to draw on as students or even Jedi Knights such as Kyle that could train prospective students along with Luke.
    TKT, DarthJenari, Revanfan1 and 2 others like this.
  16. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4

    Wasn't Kyle supposed to have been in the first class of 12, as a retcon?
  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Yes. A year earlier, he was tutoring Mara Jade in the ways of the Force and had considerable mastery of it, and had his struggle with the dark side that was going on at the same time as Luke's struggle in Dark Empire. But Kyle's somehow made him forget his knowledge of the Force whereas Luke's did not. :p
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Jan 29, 2014
  18. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    I don't think there's a problem with the class concept itself. I would assume that there's more one-on-one training offscreen; we're not seeing everything that happens, and in any case, training a very small class of students together doesn't mean that there won't be enough time to deal with each student.

    I do think, though, that Luke would have been better served by first training a small, select group of Jedi who are already somewhat trained and stable up to a high standard and then employing them as TAs in training the larger group. There's a little of this with Kam, and you'd assume Kyle would be able to fill the same role, but had Luke sat down with his existing prospects -- Kam, Kyle, maybe Corran -- and trained them to serve as fellow instructors rather than students slightly ahead of the curve, there would have been more guidance available for that crucial first larger class when Luke is figuring things out.
    Revanfan1 likes this.
  19. vadimk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2009
    star 1
    You have to keep in mind that Luke was assembling his first class in the middle of the war with Empire, when memories of Palpatine were still fresh. At that time it was not an easy task to find Force adepts who were mentally stable and ready to become Jedi.

    Yes, having Luke train a couple of instructors to help him tutor the first class could've probably worked better. And he ended up there eventually, with Kam, Tionne and Streen all participating in running the academy quite soon after that.
  20. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4

    He should have really been putting pressure on Mara to come around too.

    You know, we often talk about Luke's failures in students who fell to the dark side... rarely ever do we talk about Jem and Rayf Ysanna... who Luke practically kidnapped and got killed almost immediately.
  21. Jedifirefly5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 2

    I always thought the Agri Corps was ridiculous. You don't take bright talented minds and expose them to worlds of possibility and then stick them in indentured drudgery. They might as well have given them Sith Bait t shirts as parting gifts. Why not have them sent back to their families?
  22. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4
    "Eh, you're not so good with a lightsaber.... but you can be a magical farm boy instead!"

    Thank the Force Luke was a natural, or he'd have ended up in the same place he started.
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  23. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4

    video game characters. [face_shame_on_you] overblown every time. revan, Kyle Katran, Galan Marak , The Exile
  24. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5

    *smacks him in the name of Ace Azzameen, Maarek Stele, Keyan Farlander, Jaden Korr and this guy
    [IMG]*
    :p
  25. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    Farlander was not a video game character. he was in New Rebellion yes?!