PT "We're keepers of the peace. Not soldiers."

Back in the OT days when I was a kid & thinking about the hypothetical forthcoming films (during the '80's & early '90's, we weren't even sure the PT would be released), I always thought the Jedi were these masterful, almost invincible warriors that could take on almost anyone & win through their skill & power in the force...from what we saw in the OT, Luke in ROTJ, Obi-wan, and Yoda were quite powerful....of course, even back then we knew that Darth Vader destroyed most of the Jedi, according to Obi-wan.

So, when I first saw the AOTC Trailer in Fall 2001, I was intrigued by the statement that Mace Windu made when he said to Palpatine, "We're keepers of the peace. Not soldiers." It's a simple statement of fact, but is extremely significant. Going along with this, in ANH Obi-wan stated that Jedi were considered "guardians of peace & justice in the Old Republic."

Based on Mace's & Obi-wan's statements, Jedi were never actually considered soldiers, but more like warriors that got involved in conflicts as a last resort. In the biggest battle scene involving many Jedi in AOTC (the only real battle scene like this in the Saga), though they fight well & valiantly, a large group of them does get almost completely decimated by the Battle Droids/Super Battle Droids. And, they were only saved from all getting taken out by the arrival of the Clone Soldiers (led by Yoda). As was seen in the PT, the Jedi don't wear any kind of body-armor and/or protection, but just simple robes/tunics. So, they really don't have anything to protect them when going into battle - again, this just reinforces the idea that they are just "guardians of the peace", and nothing else.

The point of my post is that the Jedi really aren't that powerful - sure, maybe they're stronger/stronger/faster than the average person, but when they're up against a superior force, they're not that tough to defeat. After all, Anakin & the clone warriors sneakily took most of them out in ROTS, and this is something that they should have been able to at least somewhat predict through their sensitivity with the force - however, they were caught completely by surprise...

 

Nice observation there! One of the chief complaints I hear of the PT is that the Jedi are in combat way too much
Did we forget that the first minute of TPM explicitly states that the Jedi went on the control ship to negotiate? Lol. The fact that they resorted to combat was only to defend themselves and later the queen. You'll notice that more often than not, the droids and Sith Lords are often the first to attack. Even when Mace and the three Jedi with him knew that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, he was the one to attack first.

Yes, I know Anakin was quite often the one to attack first too. But.... he's Anakin and later Vader lol

 

gl says the jedi are like sheriff's in the old west. quicker guns then everyone else who dispense justice and help people. dooku left the order because of this...

Battle of Galidraan - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

the jedi were sent to negotiate but it turned into a bloody battle.

 

Well, first we need to start with the quote itself. The quote "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." is only a few words in a conversation between the Jedi and Palpatine.

The line "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." has nothing to do with how powerful the Jedi are or aren't. The line has everything to do with Mace telling Palaptine that the Jedi Order is not a standing army of millions of soldiers. They are simply a police force of sorts. They can't be everywhere all the time.

The conversation that they are having is about what could happen if the Republic breaks out into civil war, and Mace is warning Palpatine that the Jedi are not soldiers because they aren't big enough (in terms of numbers) to be considered an army. Thus they don't have the numbers to protect the Republic if war breaks out. Which is why the conversation talks about the vote, which is the same vote about the Military Creation Act. So again, the line isn't about how strong the Jedi are, just that they don't have the numbers to fight a war.


Which incidentally is what Qui Gon says to Queen Amidala in TPM. Once again the context of the conversation has to be taken in account. The Queen has decided to return to Naboo, but, hasn't informed anyone of her plans yet except only that she doesn't intend to sign the treaty. Panaka and Qui Gon are telling her that they don't understand what the point of returning back to Naboo is. So Qui Gon tells her

He is basically telling her he can't defeat the Trade Federation by himself. She had better have a plan other than counting on him. He is telling her he isn't an army.

In both cases, Mace and Qui Gon are telling Palpatine and Amidala, that no matter how powerful you think we are, we can be outnumbered.

As for the power of the Jedi, that will always be up for debate because some had preconceived ideas of just how strong and powerful the Jedi were. IMO, I thought the PT showed them as being very powerful. At the battle of Geonosis it took thousands (possibly tens of thousands) of Battle Droids, and Geonosians to kill approx 100 to 150 Jedi. In ROTS it again took the Jedi being outnumbered and betrayed to be gunned down.

 

Agree about Geonosis; the Jedi put up quite a fight before they were defeated.

However, if the Jedi were more sensitive to the Force/Dark side, I don't think the Clones & Anakin would have been able to sneak up on them & betray them as easily as they did in ROTS. My impression from the end of the film is that the Jedi were all but wiped out by Order 66 - and, obviously, there was a lot we didn't see here, since they only showed a handful of Jedi being taken down. In AOTC & possibly ROTS (it's been a while since I've seen either film), IIRC Yoda mentions something about the Dark side being difficult to see....the implication here is that the Jedi couldn't clearly see the evil that was right in front of their faces until it was too late, i.e. Palpatine & Anakin.

 

Because the Force was out of balance. The Dark Side had become stronger and was clouding everything. Remember that in AOTC, Mace and Yoda have a conversation about whether or not tell the Senate that their ability to use the Force has diminished. Yoda says that they are blind if they couldn't see the creation of the Clone Army. The only thing that stops them from telling the Senate is the fear that if they do let it out publicly that their enemies will multiply and will take advantage of their weakened states. So the Jedi have been weakened to a pretty big degree because the Force is out of balance.

 

They are powerful, specially when compared to the average galactic citizen, but they are not unbeatable/invincible. You can see it throughout the saga. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have to escape the droidekas/destroyer droids, the Jedi on the Geonosis arena ended up defeated by being outnumbered. The same applies to the Sith. In TCW, Dooku was outnumbered by pirates and got arrested.

 

I never read that much into Mace's statement. I thought Mace was referring to the fact that there weren't that many Jedi so they wouldn't be able to step into the role of being the primary military force to defend the Republic. Count Dooku supports this premise - in his meeting with the Separatists he says something along the lines of how the Separatists will have the finest army in the galaxy and the Jedi will be overwhelmed.

 

I think he's also clarifying to Palpatine the Jedi's role within the Republic. They are guardians/keepers of peace and justice, not soldiers. The Jedi are an order, not an army.

 

That being the case it is somewhat ironic that it is the Jedi who immediately take, and keep, control of the Clone army ( Heck, TCW not only are all the Jedi apparently Generals in charge of whatever force they are with and outranking the Admirals, but even the Padawans have high rank in the command structure and are superior to most officers).

 

They don't control the army, the senate (and Palpatine) does. They serve the Republic and by leading the army they are fulfilling their mandate of protecting the Republic. Of course, ideally they shouldn't be fighting a war, but that's part of Palpatine's trap and they have no other choice.

 

They answer to the Senate, but they are the ones who command the army, as opposed to a command structure of dedicated military personnel. The Jedi are the ones making the Strategic and tactical decisions which is the point I am making. In theory there is no reason they could not relinquished command to a dedicated military ( though in fairness this seems to be Palpatines plan, however TCW seems to imply that he want the Jedi distanced from the actual command structure and the Jedi are not entirely pleased with that idea).

 

As they should be. Isn't their intent to end the war as fast as possible?

When did that happen? I don't recall that.

 

In the Citadel arc. Though that's more Tarkin than Palpatine.

 

Why should the Jedi be the ones in command though, as opposed to dedicated high ranking military officers ? The Military are ( in theory) dedicated to ending the war as efficiently and quickly as possible after all. If the Jedi feel that no one else is qualified so they HAVE to take the burden on that's hubris on their part.
Logically there is no reason why they could not be separate and any Jedi who want to be in the command structure take a formal commission, Every Jedi being automatically a general just because is silly, as is having a Youngling commanding Admirals. Worse having them micromanage seems a waste if they are so hard pressed. TCW shows us Shaak Ti, a council member, overseeing the training of Clones on Geonosis, Is a Jedi needed for this? Wouldn't some sort of military Commandant be better ( come to that was having Bounty hunters train them the best idea, wouldn't soldiers be better for that too?).

 

the easiest answer to that is the jedi are a big part of the republic. they want to be involved, to steer things in the right direction and monitor the situation.

 

There are high ranking military officers. But the Jedi have a duty to protect the Republic. If they can help command in order to end the war more quickly, it's their job to do so.

You mean Kamino? And why wouldn't it be? I believe the reason for why she's there is explained in the clone arc of Season 6.

For what she's doing? How would it be better?

 

There are high ranking military officers but they are under the command of the Jedi, the distinction is the Jedi are heading the military not helping them ( which they could do anyway as a separate organisation or as specialists). The Jedi are powerful but do not seem to be tactical geniuses by any means. Even Anakin, who shows a lot of tactical flair in a pinch has a habit of defaulting to frontal assaults. The Jedi could work just as well liasing as a kind of special forces, instead they Are the Generals. Tactically you want your generals overseeing the whole battle not flying fighters or leading daring raids, its awkward adapting a strategy and overseeing the big picture while in the thick of it.


and Yeah Kamino is what I mean, and Shaak Ti overseeing the clones training is a waste of her talents. As one of the limited number of Jedi, and one of the most powerful ones to boot having her basically act as an administrator is a waste of her talents. A high ranking military officer would be more than capable freeing her up to go where she would do the most good, surely that helps end the war more quickly.

( It does occur to me the Jedi may have her there to help instill loyalty into the Clones for the Jedi, I rather like the irony of that as well all told).


The original point though is that its Ironic that the keepers of the peace become the supreme commanders of millions of soldiers after Mace' protestation. ( The absolute need for them to command aside)

 

The two aren't mutually exclusive. They are commanding the military, therefore they are helping to end the conflict.

Not the same thing.

Source?

Maybe not for them. I really don't understand what's the big problem here...

Implying she isn't doing any good (which is not true, as seen in the series).

Mace protests that there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic (which is true) and that they are not soldiers (the clones are). Where's the contradiction?

 

Its an important distinction nontheless and gives insight into the Jedi mindset.

Doesn't need to be, thats the point. The Jedi do not NEED to become commanders to win the war, Given their limited numbers they can be put to better use.

Nothing really shows the Jedi as tactical geniuses. If anything in large part their tactics seem fairly reactive, and certainly they lose a lot of ships in various TCW episodes. Anakin, as I say is shown to be one of the cleverest, with unorthodox methods, however a lot of his tactics involve frontal assaults which is not the most innovative thing ever. To look at Ahsoka, more than once she is given command and screws up because she fails to follow the plan.

Strategically even if the Jedi are capable of multitasking to the point they can organise a whole battlefield and adapt while in the midst of combat, the logistics of giving the orders to various groups still makes it impossible to do effectively.

One thing I will mention is that in ROTS, Lots of Jedi Generals fighting in the front lines become easy pickings and are killed with Order 66. The Jedi who is most prepared? Yoda - and Yoda is in a command centre with maps and stuff not organising a battle while leading from the front.

Not implying that Shaak Ti is not doing anything useful, but she is not doing anything that requires her specific skills. Overseeing training, giving pep talks and allowing Clones to resit a test is noble but hardly "Jedi Business" ( Clone Cadets). Neither are her skills particularly vital to oversee the treatment of a sick clone or the return of medical samples to the Jedi.
Shes not bad at her job but she is wasted and could be doing something that needs a Jedi Masters unique skills.

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No contradiction its just ironic. The Jedi become military commanders, Soldiers, after all. As to Mace saying there are not enough Jedi this is exactly why, for example, Shaak Ti being an administrator is a waste of resources. Better I feel to free up the Jedi to be as effective as they can be using their unique skills to do things no one else can.

 

That being...?

They don't need to even fight to win the war, but if they do, the chances of winning it increase.

Like what? There's a war going on, the Republic is at risk of being defeated.

Nothing shows them as poor ones, which leaves room for speculation. In fact, AotC shows the Jedi having some "good calls" as far as commands go.

Wait, for someone to be a tactical genius, they can't lose a single ship?

And that's how she learned for the rest of the series.

It's impossible for them, but possible to someone else?

They didn't die because they fought in the frontlines, they died because they were betrayed. Yoda didn't survive because he was in the command center, he survived because he sensed the Jedi dying throughout the galaxy and was more wary because of it.

"Since the Republic and the Jedi comissioned the clones, it is our responsibility to oversee their care." Shaak Ti, Season 6: Episode 2

It's a perfectly valid reason for her to be there.

Mace says that when the Republic didn't have an army. When it got one, the amount of Jedi necessary for protecting the Republic (in case of a war) ceased to be a concern.

 

Why are the Jedi in control of the Clone Army? Well it's because they were the only one's capable of leading the army. The Republic had absolutely no military what-so-ever. That is what the whole point of the Military Creation Act was, to create a military. There was no one else the Jedi could pass off leadership of the military off too. The Republic had nothing in the way of a military infrastructure. Either way the Jedi were going to have to be involved.

From the beginning of AOTC, I think the Jedi are all for the Republic to create a military. The opening crawl of AOTC says that the vote is to help create an army to assist the overwhelmed Jedi. The Jedi are spread thin, Mace is telling Palpatine that the Jedi just aren't capable of being an army to protect the Republic in the case of Civil War breaking out. It seems to me that the Jedi want the Military Creation Act to pass in order to take the pressure off of themselves. It seems that the Jedi accepted the fact that they would be involved in what ever army was created. They knew they would be involved because the Republic had no command structure in place even if the vote passed, the thousands of officers needed just don't appear out of thin air. Again the opening crawl says assist, not take over for.

So it stands to reason that the Jedi would be in charge over the Clone Army. They were the only one's in the Republic that had any kind of military experience.

Edit: With that said, the Jedi were on control of the army from a fighting the War standpoint. It was Palpatine who had real control over the Army. It was his army, as the emergency powers given to him detailed. It was not the Jedi's army.

 

That said - the Republic did have "Judicial Forces" which were involved in various conflicts - they were just very small.

Admiral Yularen, for example, fought in a fleet action with the Jedi, for the Republic, against Admiral Trench, years before the Clone Wars - at the Battle of the Malastare Narrows (TCW Season 2: Cat and Mouse).

 

I always thought that the Malastare Narrows was more like how our Current U.N. works. The U.N. takes standing armies from it's member states for Security. That's how I pictured the Republic working as well. There were resources that the Republic could "borrow" from, but, it did not have it's own standing force. Yularen was basically fighting under the Republic flag, but, the Forces he commanded were basically on loan to the Republic. Admittedly, I never got that deep into it though.