PT "We're keepers of the peace. Not soldiers."

I figure that at the very least they have anti-piracy ships of their own - and if they need more than that, like the UN, they call on the standing armies of the member states.

 

They could have created a bunch of officer clones...

 

Which would have taken another 10 years to grow.

That said - the clone army had officers of its own.

 

What I meant was, a bunch of officer clones could have been created right at the start and grown alongside the Fett clones. Come to think of it, why on Earth did the Kaminoans create an army for the Republic but neglect to create a high command to go along with it? I mean, there was no guarantee that the Jedi would take charge and an army would be more or less useless without a high command.

 

You still need a officers to over see those officers. ie Generals.

That is why in AOTC you only see Jedi leading Clones. However by the time of ROTS we see that there is an actual command structure in place. As the war progressed the Jedi were basically training their replacements. ie... Tarkin.

 

I figure they must have created some naval officers - because we see them in TCW. Maybe the reason they didn't create a high command was because normally customers prefer to provide their own?

 

But why not create a few clone generals? Jedi are not a hard requirement of any army in my view.

 

There were officer clones, the red, yellow, green clones in AOTC were officer clones. However, you still need a non-clone military command to lead them. The Jedi were the only logical choice. As I said earlier, the Jedi knew they were going to be involved either way. The Military Creation Act was meant to create an army to assist the Jedi, not take over for them, as the opening crawl states.

Experience!

 

Experience at mediating border disputes and trade difficulties you mean. What makes a mediator suddenly qualified to be a general? Surely custom made General type clones would be the better bet.

 

Perhaps - but Dooku didn't ask for them.

Maybe the whole point of leaving the General slot open was so that the Jedi would take it - and suffer disproportionate casualties in it.

 

Making an assumption here Alexrd but I am guessing that you are firmly in the camp of the Jedi are the best possible generals for the war, so I guess we will continue to disagree. But since you asked questions....

From a keepers of the peace perspective, no not really. there are no more Jedi ( many less given how many are killed on Geonosis in fact) so less peace keepers for the galaxy. That said it really seems to me that the Jedi in the meeting at the beginning of AOTC Want an army. The question is whether they want to control it ( all indications is yes they do).


I am curious. you seem to believe that the Jedi really should have taken control of the army and it would be wrong for anyone else to do so. Why? Do you really believe a traditional military structure would not serve?

Absolutely, initially the Jedi seem to have to take control of the army. that said once the command structure is in place distancing the Jedi from the military makes sense ( though they seem opposed). Tarkin may be a monster, but no one knew that ( not like he blew up a planet or anything...) So the military being divorced from the Jedi made sense. Tarkin is not entirely wrong in pointing out that Jedi make lousy military commanders however ( though I have to admit he may go a bit far in the other direction)

 

Wrong assumption. If they were the best or not was never in question.

If there is war, there's no peace. They must end the war in order to bring peace (and keep it).

No, they are warning Palpatine about the consequences if he fails the negotiations.

Where did they show any intent on controlling an army?

No, I believe it's in the Jedi's duty to protect the Republic. And to do so in the case of the Clone Wars, is to lead them the best they can, thanks to their wisdom and precognitive abilities.

But since there is a war, how should they fulfill their duty?

EDIT: Didn't realize you had replied within the quote bubble.

That's obviously not true since there are many non-Jedi commanders in the Clone Wars.

Could you reformulate?

They aren't? Says who?

Anakin does as well. The rest? We don't even see the rest.

Do provide evidence of such habit.

No, but this is fiction, and we are not talking about mere children.

What a "good general" does or not is a bit subjective.

The risk is the same. If the center has clones, it would happen anyway (which it did).

Needlessly? All the episodes with Shaak Ti on Kamino shows her being necessary.

 

That's pretty short sighted of you. The U.S. military delivers humanitarian aid, does that make them any less able to fight in a war? The U.S. military has helped in natural disaster recovery, does that make the leaders of the U.S. military any less effective at leading during a war?

The fact is, is that at the point of AOTC and into the Clone War, the Jedi are the most experienced that the Republic has at any kind of military intervention. They have a set command structure, that is in constant contact with the Chancellors Office and the Senate. The Jedi for over a thousand years have served the Republic honorably, faithfully, and successfully in all matters of peace, and military matters. You just don't throw that out the window.

If someone told me that I had some super warriors, that had god like powers, that have been the main force behind protecting my silly ass for a thousand years at my disposal, well you better believe they are going to be a major part in my army and war!

 

You're assuming that the command structure, that is in it's infancy at best, was better than what the Jedi could do. I don't see that being the case at all. Furthermore, as I pointed out, it is Palpatine that is legally in control of the Clone Army, and the War. What any of Palpatine's underlings thought of the Jedi means absolutely nothing. It is he (Palpatine) that gets the final say as to who leads the clone army. Even if you and I disagree on who is best fit to lead the Republic Army (the Jedi or the Regular Command) it is obvious why Palpatine has kept the Jedi so involved in the War.

 

Even Palpatine has to answer to the Senate - at least at first.

 

I can see how the Jedi would believe they must be in control to regain peace.

Gotta disagree here. Palpatine tells the Jedi he is unsure how long he can hold off the vote ( for an army) and the Jedi seem to be onside with this. Its very much open to interpretation but I get the impression that the Jedi want an army to relieve the pressure.

Well they do imediately take control of it with most Jedi becoming Generals. Added to that we TCW shows us the Jedi are not thrilled with the idea that the Military take control of the army instead of the Jedi.

Yup, the Jedi's duty is to protect the Republic, which seems to be why Mace wants an army. That said they do not want a war, so thinking about it an army without a war would have been gravy for Mace. The question is whether they are the best to lead an army . Well yeah they are wise as a body, but individually? Is Anakin wise, well not really, and Ahsoka - is it wise to put a child in charge of a battle group - no not really. So thats not the best ( though the Jedi may well think differently) As to precog abilities it seems that the Jedi are very limited in this due to the dark side's increase. Certainly they cannot now see how small engagements will be and even Yoda finds it clouded. So that is no reason for an untried Knight ( or a padawan ) to take control.

The Jedi are awesome and powerful, but in the case of war? Naive to a degree, they also are not cold blooded enough ( well apart from Anakin).

 

It seems to me also that the Jedi are in favor of the Military Creation Act. We have the opening crawl:

The opening crawl says to assist the Jedi, not take over for them. The Jedi are having trouble keeping the peace because of their limited numbers. The Jedi need help.

Than the conversation between the Jedi and Palpatine:

Palpatine starts off by saying he doesn't know how much longer he can hold off the vote. Why do the Jedi want the vote held off? Because at that point, the vote would go Padme's way, and the Military Creation Act would be struck down, forcing the Jedi to continue to struggle trying to keep things under control. The Jedi need help, and Mace is telling Palpatine that they need help. That if his negotiations fail, and the vote goes against the creation of a military, that the Jedi would be overwhelmed.

Hmm, I disagree... Not sure if there is something in TCW that I haven't gotten to yet, but, just looking at AOTC. In AOTC once Palpatine gets his Emergency powers, he creates a Grand Army of the Republic. All of a sudden the Jedi jump into action. Mace goes to Genosis, and Yoda goes to take control of the Army. There was no vote on this, it seemed it was already discussed and the Emergency Powers act was a formality that once surpassed Mace and Yoda knew what to do.

It was always my thoughts that the Emergency Powers Act not only gave Palpatine the right to start the army, but, also the right to control it as he saw fit.

 

I don't. Either way, it's not up to them.

On the contrary, he's telling them he isn't sure how long he can hold it off as if he was doing them a favor by doing that. But yes, it's slightly open to interpretation.

Under the senate's decision.

Erm... Again where does Mace state that he wants an army? It's never stated, therefore not a valid argument.

 

That's speculation. I've always interpreted it as they want the vote held off in order to avoid a possible creation of an army.

 

the beginning of AOTC. Mace clearly wants an army to back up the Jedi, and Palpatine is having trouble holding back the vote ( and it seems they both want an army but the Senate will say no at that point) And yeah Palpatine is doing them a favour, but thats because a vote about the army, with what Padme has done would be a resounding No.

 

Well, it's not "clearly" since the position of the Jedi regarding the creation of an army is never stated or addressed. It's just speculation. You can't make an argument based on speculation. At least a valid one.

 

Not that I cold not be wrong ;but it really seems to me ( and From above posts I am apparently not alone) that the Jedi want an army since they cannot cope on their own and Palpatine is holding of the vote for the creation of an army since as it stands it will be blocked, and he wants it passed ( " I don't know how long I can hold off the vote my friends" ). As it turns out, of course Palpatine wants them to have the army ( and indeed keep control of it)

thats the thing about Palpatine. the man is a genius. manipulated everything and won ( and lets face it looked so cool doing it we were all rooting for him ). Jedi precognition - Epic fail.

 

Not quite. As said by Yoda "the dark side clouds everything", and Mace also says that their "ability to use the Force has diminished". That said, the precognitive abilities I mentioned earlier are not about long term future, but short term.

 

Well again the line is not just a stand alone line. There is context to the line.

First we have the opening crawl telling us that the Jedi are spread thin and that part of the reason for the military creation act is to create an army to help the Jedi.

Than we have Mace warning Palpatine that they are not soldiers, there is not enough Jedi to protect the entire galaxy in the event the separatists break away (civil war).

Mace clearly doesn't have the same amount of faith in Palpatine's negotiations as well.

Later in the movie we see that even when faced with the fact that the Separatists are making an army, Organa is sure that the Senate still wouldn't vote to use the Clones, which tells us that the Padme's group that is against the creation of the Military was the group with the most votes at the beginning of the movie.

If what you say is true and the Jedi didn't want an army, than it doesn't make sense to hold off the vote because it's already in their favor as we hear from Organa. Furthermore, why would they not want something that is intended to help them.

The only way that holding off the Vote is in favor of the Jedi is that it's in order to get more votes to actually create the army, because Padme's group is the majority. The army that the opening crawl says is needed to help the Jedi. The army that mace says they are going to need if the separatists break away, because the Jedi aren't an army. An army that is going to be needed if Palpatine's negotiations fail, negotiations that the Jedi show low faith in.

It just seems from what we see in the movie that the Jedi are in favor of getting help...

 

There's no need to turn this into a personal attack is there?

No. It doesn't. But at the same time, they're military so they'll have military experience.

Now the Jedi in the films seem to act more like policemen than soldiers. I wouldn't turn policemen into Generals myself. If I were creating a clone army, I'd create a bunch of clone Generals and Admirals as well, give them bucketloads of training and schooling in strategy.

Whatsmore, being a good soldier or a good warrior is a totally different thing from being a good General. To the best of knowledge, the Jedi are never any sort of training in military strategy, making it rather a bad idea to make them Generals and put them in charge of strategy. To be sure, the Jedi are good fighters and they may make good lower rank Commanders but I'm unconvinced that they would actually make good Generals.

But this doesn't mean you can't grow a bunch of clone Generals does it?

Sure, the Jedi have a great record in this regard. But that doesn't automatically mean they should be put in charge of the Republic's strategy in a galactic war. Leave the strategy to those who have been trained in strategy I say.

Well that's your choice. If I were under threat I would put the Jedi in my army too. But I wouldn't make them Generals. I wouldn't put them in charge of my overall strategy. I would leave the strategy to the strategists and I would leave the fighting to the warriors.