Were Luke and Leia the only potential Jedi left during the time of ANH????

This topic started in another thread about midichlorians (geez we are dorks.

Do you think that during the time of ANH there are other potential Jedi in the galaxy other than Luke and Leia?

I tend to think that during the height of the republic there were less Jedi than people generally tend to think there were, so that when Vader and the Emperor wiped out the Jedi only Luke an Leia were left. I also don't like how in the EU suddenly all these Jedi (who are not related to the Skywalkers) pop up out of nowhere and are close to Luke's age. Anyways it up for debate and I am interested in what you all think.......

 

Besides Ben, Vader and Yoda no one was trained to use their force ablities. There were people who had that ablity in them and just did not know it or were in hiding. The importance of Luke and Leia is that only they could save their father and by doing so destroy Palpatine.

-Seldon

 

Let me ask this:

Was it Obiwan and Yoda's intention to SAVE Vader/Anakin, or to defeat him/destroy him?

 

One can look at this from any which way.
I don't think they knew the full details. I do think that they knew only Luke or Leia could complete this mission. They might not have known any specifics just a feeling that the only Anakin's off spring could save the galaxy.

-Seldon

 

I think Yoda and Ben might have lost faith that Anakin was the Chosen One. I think they sent Luke to kill him and the Emperor.

 

jaimestarr,

Probably best to move this to a new thread, as you've done. Therefore I'll post a condensed version of my argument from the midichlorians thread, so that you all can point out its flaws here instead...

Obi Wan indicates more than once in the OT that he wants Luke to "destroy" or "kill" Vader. But remember: Obi Wan has talked about "killing" someone before, and in that case, he did not mean a physical death, but rather a transformation. This, of course, is when he tells Luke that Darth Vader "murdered" Luke's father. Later we learn that no one was actually murdered; Anakin was simply transformed into Vader.

In other words, Ben speaks metaphorically of Anakin and Vader as two separate people. Thus, when he urges Luke to "destroy" Vader, he is not speaking of physically killing the person inside the black suit. As in the earlier example, he is speaking of a transformation. First Anakin was transformed into Vader, and now, with Luke's help, Obi Wan hopes to transform Vader back into Anakin. By doing this, he will not only save his friend, he will fulfill the prophecy of the Chosen One.

Essentially, we're talking about the resurrection of Anakin Skywalker.

Like Christ, Anakin was born of a virgin, and he was "killed" at a young age by evil forces. And also like Christ, after a length of time he will be resurrected. In Anakin's case, this resurrection happens when he denies the dark side and kills the Emperor. That's why we now see Hayden as Anakin's force ghost at the end of ROTJ. It makes sense that he would appear after the resurrection as he did just before his "death."

(And no, I don't think Lucas is modelling Anakin on Christ to make a religious point. It is simply a very powerful mythological story, and one that is repeated in many cultures.)

This is the only explanation that makes sense, because killing Vader (in the literal sense) is not in Obi Wan or Yoda's best interest. It does not bring balance to the Force, as Anakin is supposed to. It does not destroy the Empire--if that was what they wanted, they would have Luke go after the Emperor himself, not his apprentice. It does not protect Luke or Leia, since they are sending Luke into the one situation that they know might push him to the dark side.

Luke is not chosen because he could defeat Vader in combat, or because there are no other potential Jedi in the galaxy. He is chosen because he (along with Leia) is the only untainted link that connects Anakin and Vader.

With his Shmi and Padme dead, Luke and Leia are Anakin/Vader's only family. They never hurt him, they never betrayed him the way (he feels) Obi Wan and the Jedi did. They are a living reminder of the better person he used to be, and they are the only such reminders in the entire galaxy. That's why they are the "last hope"--not because of their Jedi powers, but because of their relationship with their father.

 

Dionysus I posted this in the midichlorians thread before I realized you switched to this one:



"...Thus, I should never have used the word "redeem." The proper word is 'resurrect.'"

I understand what you mean about Ben speaking in metaphors and the entire role of resurrection in mythology, however, Ben tells Luke specifically that there is no longer good in Darth Vader. The novelization of ROTJ even goes further to prove this point. I think it is quite a stretch to suggest that Ben and Yoda had in mind that Luke would turn Vader back to the good side. Again, it was Luke's idea alone.

"Doesn't it make more sense that Luke and Leia were the 'last hope' not because they were the only potential Jedi in the galaxy, but because they were connected to Vader, and thus could be used to remind him of his former self?"

Again, it is a huge stretch to say that Yoda and Obiwan were saving Luke and Leia for Vader because they were counting on Vader turning good to save them and that, in doing so, he'd destroy the Emperor. They don't mention the prophecy in the OT. I think they have given up on it. They think that Anakin is all the way gone and they don't count on him coming back. If not, why didn't Ben make any mention of Vader possibly still having some good when they fought on the Death Star?

"You asked why Obi Wan didn't try to redeem Vader, since he was like a father to him. I think we will see in ROTS that Anakin will feel betrayed by Obi Wan and the rest of the Jedi."

Read the novel for ROTJ. In it, Luke explains to Ben that he can't kill his own father and that there is still good in him. Ben explains how he tried to covince Anakin to turn away from the Dark Side and that led to a fierce battle and led to Anakin becoming Darth Vader (wearing the suit).

quotes to further my point.

He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil." -Obi Wan (Return of the Jedi)*** he's trying to convince Luke not to view Vader as Anakin. He believes there is no good left.

"Come with me father." "Obi Wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the dark side." -Luke and Vader (Return of the Jedi)*** Obiwan HAD tried to turn Anakin back, but then a battle over lava happened....***

"My question is still this: if there were enough potential Jedi (and here I mean children who are strong in the Force, or who at least have high midichlorian counts) to fill the entire Jedi Academy in the PT, why have all such children disappeared by the time we get to the OT? A virus? A purge by the Emperor? What?


A purge by the Emperor. He and Vader hunt down and destroy the Jedi. It is plainly stated in the OT. Believe me-you'll see alot of this in Episode 3. I am going spoiler free also, but these facts can all be found in the scripts and novelizations of the original trilogy. Think about it, if there were even 5 more force users/potential Jedi, why wouldn't Ben and Yoda just round them up train them all and go take on The Emperor and Vader? Why use Luke at all if he is as risky as Yoda claims?

" a young Jedi named Darth vader.. helped hunt down and destroy the Jedi..." Obiwan Kenoboi (A new hope)

"..when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be...pass on what you have learned." Yoda (Return of the Jedi) ***Luke isn't technically a Jedi at this point, Yoda says so moments before, Yoda means he is the last of his kind/force user/etc ***

 

You have to be trained in order to reach your untapped potential. So I am sure that other forcer users were born during the OT.

 

I honestly think Yoda and Obi-Wan believed that Luke or Leia would be the Chosen One, for a few different reasons. Obviously they both had higher midi-chlorian counts then all the other Jedi except Anakin. Also it seems quite apparent to me that Luke, the chosen of the twins mission WAS to defeat the Sith and subsequently bring balance to the Force. Yoda even said to Luke, ESB, in reference to when Luke is leaving, "Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the force as his ally, will conquer Vader AND his Emperor." Now that to me shows the idea from the start was for Luke to bring balanced to the Force by beating them. Also I can't see how Obi-Wan would believe that Anakin was even alive to be transformed. We know his spirit wasn't aging, so there was very little to sense of the friend and son Obi-Wan taught. If Obi-Wan thought otherwise, then why does he believe Anakin has ceased to exist and that the Emperor has already won if Luke can't even kill his father, not even consider it as an option?

 

My thinking is that OB1 must make Luke want to kill the Emperor even tho OB1 doesnt think Luke would do it. Thus encouraging Luke to save Anakin with reverse phsyicology(sp?)

I could be wrong, OB1 may not be playing a mind-game with Luke and he may think Anakin died long ago when he dueled and beat Anakin on Mustafar(ROTS)

 

Movies - yes
EU - no

Meh pick your preference

 

Do you think that during the time of ANH there are other potential Jedi in the galaxy other than Luke and Leia?

Yes. There is always potential. The problem is finding it. Medichlorians have always existed in times of trial and in times of peace for force users. All beings have medichlorians. If a being has enough, they are destined to be a Jedi, well, by the terms of the Jedi Order that is. The Sith Order and other organizations have other qualifications, but they all work remotely the same. If a potential Jedi is reconized and trained, they learn to use their power. If they're not reconized and trained, they just blend in with the normal crowd for their whole life. That's the way it was in the time between the fall of the Republic and the Galactic Civil War, but that wasn't even the first time this has happened to the Republic. Over a thousand years before the Republic was threated, only the difference was that it prevailed.

Getting back to the original question, there were many potential Jedi. A great many of them never knew what they were capable of what they could do during that time unless they lived long enough to be reconized and join the New Jedi Order.

Luke, being the son of the Chosen One, fortunately was set up to become a Jedi by Bail Organa and Obi-Wan Kenobi right after they splitted ways and the Republic fell. He found his true power and used it for the good of the galaxy and single-handedly defeated the Empire.

Besides Ben, Vader and Yoda no one was trained to use their force ablities. There were people who had that ablity in them and just did not know it or were in hiding. The importance of Luke and Leia is that only they could save their father and by doing so destroy Palpatine.

As I said earlier, Obi-Wan, Vader and Yoda we're still alive, but they were on the brink of dying off and they knew it. The Original Trilogy is focused on the uprising of Luke Skywalker, which is quite a change if you think about it. Vader couldn't overcome his evil until he was stimulated to do so. Obi-Wan and Yoda were simply too old for that, but on the other hand Luke was charismatic and capable of finishing what they tried to do many years before.

Was it Obiwan and Yoda's intention to SAVE Vader/Anakin, or to defeat him/destroy him?

The point was to save the galaxy. If Vader died, so be it. It would have been quite a surprise to them if they would have lived long enough to learn that Vader's true good was brought out.

I think Yoda and Ben might have lost faith that Anakin was the Chosen One. I think they sent Luke to kill him and the Emperor.

Luke wasn't a hitman. He wasn't out to necessarily kill anyone. Yoda said to defeat Vader. Vader was surely defeated, and Anakin was reborn, just for those last few seconds.

If Luke could have turned the Emporer and Vader, then great, they could be an asset to the New Republic, but the thing that was expected was that they would be killed.

Obi Wan indicates more than once in the OT that he wants Luke to "destroy" or "kill" Vader. But remember: Obi Wan has talked about "killing" someone before, and in that case, he did not mean a physical death, but rather a transformation. This, of course, is when he tells Luke that Darth Vader "murdered" Luke's father. Later we learn that no one was actually murdered; Anakin was simply transformed into Vader.

You're right, it's just a play on words. Very nicely said.

I understand what you mean about Ben speaking in metaphors and the entire role of resurrection in mythology, however, Ben tells Luke specifically that there is no longer good in Darth Vader.

There isn't. That's why that when Vader killed the Emporer for his son, he died and Anakin was reborn as I said above. There is no good in Darth Vader and there never was. Anakin is the true saint blindly wandering in Vader's corpse.

I honestly think Yoda and Obi-Wan believed that Luke or Leia would be the Chosen One, for a few different reasons. Obviously they both had higher midi-chlorian counts t

 

I'm sure there are quite a few out there in the galaxy that could be trained as Jedi. Yoda wouldn't say pass on what you haved learned just to train one person(Leia).

 

It just hurts me when I must think that all of the Jedi will be slaughtered between Episide III and IV - or even in Episide III.

A whole culture is lost !

It's sad when so many Jedi must die.

But I'm glad that not all died, Yoda and Obi-Wan lived on.



Personally, I would be interested what GL himself would say whether all Jedi are slaughtered except Yoda & Obi-Wan, or whether there remained a few more ... I'd like to see some from Ep.III in EP.IV, but I know it most likely won't happen.

 

They couldn't have killed all the 10,000 Jedi in the Great Jedi Purge. And anyway, can't people without Jedi parents be born as potential Jedi?

 

Potential Jedi? No. Anyone who is strongly force sensitive has the potential to be a Jedi.

Jedi within the Order? Probably. Because Palpatine can track them, and alot of them were wiped out by the Clone Wars, anyway.

All Jedi? There are likely a few that survived, but I can't imagine they'd be particularly powerful, else they would have been ousted eventually.

 

The difficulty for Obi-Wan and Yoda would be actually finding force-sensitive begins. Certainly, there must be many born every year around the Galaxy, but for the last surviving Jedi to actually find them with the Empire controlling everything would be very hard. They knew that Luke would be force sensitive, hence their attention towards him.

I remain unspoiled for EpIII, but I can easily conceive a situation where all of the Jedi can be killed. Many would no doubt be lost in the Clone Wars, and if the clonetroopers were ordered to turn on the remainders it would be very difficult for them to escape, especially with the order?s leadership decapitated and their assets in the Chancellor?s control. Take, for example, how King Philip of France was able to destroy the Knights Templar in essentially a single day; he issued secret orders to all his soldiers to be opened on Friday, October 13, 1307. Their orders told them to arrest all of the knights in their areas of command. Once arrested, they were tortured into confessing various crimes and mostly burned at the stake (Friday 13 remains unlucky to this day).

 

I want to say yes to your question because that is the way that it appears in the movies, however, since Jedi aren't "allowed" to get married or anything they aren't "allowed" to have kids either, correct? Therefore, where did all the Jedi in the PT come from, if their parents were not Jedi? So it would seem logically that there were other potential Jedi in the OT, the Jedi just "died out" as a matter of speaking.

 

I had once a fan fiction story reflecting this, partially (long before I learned to know that this was called "fan fiction" at all ! )

In this unfinished story, two freelance pilots (owning X-Wings - I didn't know much about it bback then) more or less crash landed on an unknown planet which had surprisingly much signatures of "cultivated" life-forms - plants and animals.

As it turned out, these were the remains of one crash-landed imperial shuttle, containing people who were on their way delivering a potential Jedi to Darth Vader ot the Emperor.

Some of them got heavily injured, and that potential Jedi got blinded, but still could use the Force for working - fetching a cup of water, for example. He used the Force to actually "feel" th cup and to "pull" it towards him, while the cup sort of "levitated".

So, this man could've become a "real" Jedi, but was to be delivered as a prisoner to the Emperor or to Darth Vader.

As they crash-landed on that planet (which was not in any maps), they had no choince but build a small civilization making food for themselves.

At one point I stopped writing this (was late in the 90s) when the two freelance pilots discovered a kind of evil "ghost" who tried to take over the body of one of them (I don't remember whether I had this thing with Luke in the Jedi Academy in mind, or if I had this idea independently from the books).

*Potential* Jedi are always born, but I think that the Emperor would only allow Dark Force users )if any) ...

Alrik.

 

I think there were certainly Force Sensitives born during the OT but, no one was therre to train them.

 

Dionysus makes some good points. Why would Vader be Luke's last obstacle to becoming a Jedi knight if their whole goal was to defeat Palpatine and bring down the Empire? At that point they would have to know that he would just train another apprentice or possibly try to sway Luke himself. Why wouldnt they just train him longer and put him up against Palps himself?

I have had this debate a few times on different threads. At no time does OB1 tell Luke he must kill Vader - Luke infers it by assuming. All Yoda and Ben tell him is that he must CONFRONT Vader, and he does just that. We know that Ben has no qualms about manipulating Luke, so why wouldnt he let Luke think what he needs to think? If facing Vader is Luke's last test to becoming a Jedi Knight, then facing Vader is essentially HIS Jedi trial. They are sending Luke on his last test to becoming a Jedi, and what is the Jedi order about? Love, forgiveness, COMPASSION. Ben and Yoda were testing him. As much as it is counterintuitive from listening to the dialogue, I cant help but think that when the Anakin ghost shows up, they both look pleased, like they were proud of Luke, rather than pleasantly surprised.

Remember, Ben and Yoda had TWO goals. The first is to defeat the Emperor and Vader. The second is to rebuild the Jedi Order, albeit obviously in a different way ("pass on what you have learned!") CONFRONTING Vader is the path to both of these. Two of the greatest Jedi masters of all time were probably well aware that Luke could not take Vader down without dabbling in the dark side, so I doubt they sent him to kill Vader knowing that they would be cutting their collective nose to spite their collective face.

Luke killing Vader would defeat the purpose of what they were doing with Luke. Luke was not a pawn, a tool to use like Palps used Maul.

But getting back to the main point of the thread, no I dont think Luke and Leia were the only force sensitive people left in the GFFA. But, they were obviously best suited to the task at hand (Luke obviously more so), to redeem the chosen one, who happened to be their father. They were most likely the strongest, as well, considering their heritage.

 

---

Jedi within the Order? Probably. Because Palpatine can track them, and alot of them were wiped out by the Clone Wars, anyway.

All Jedi? There are likely a few that survived, but I can't imagine they'd be particularly powerful, else they would have been ousted eventually.[hr][/blockquote][/b]
There were approximately 9,300 or so Jedi alive right as the Clone Wars started; they started dropping like flies right from the outset. By the time fifteen months had passed, only three or four thousand remained. Twenty-one months after [i]that[/i], that number was down to around one thousand or thereabouts.

After the Clone Wars ended, there were roughly around a few hundred Jedi who survived the initial "kill order" ("Order 66"), but that number dropped precipitously over the next few years. By the time of ANH, 18 years later, there were perhaps six or seven remaining, and the lion's share of these were either so physically mutilated as to prevent upward mobility, or were virtually severed from the Force itself.

Almost none could any longer be considered true "Jedi," in any sense of the word. Empatojayos Brand was cut in half by Vader's cruiser, kept alive by cybernetics, living in a completely unexplored region of the galaxy. Vima-Da-Boda had cut herself off from the Force and cast herself down to live in the gutters of Nar Shaddaa. "The Dark Woman" (real name: An'ya Kuro) was a fully-functioning Jedi, but was killed by Darth Vader one year prior to ANH. Echuu Shen-Jon, same thing, killed not long before the movie.

A Caamasi Jedi was living in hiding on Alderaan, but was killed by the Death Star (along with, we hope, another certain Gungan character). Another, Halagad Ventor, goes into hiding, and is ultimately killed by the energy of the dark side. Most of these were not in a position to be of any real assistance to Luke and the Rebels, apart from Obi-Wan or Yoda. One did, though...Tyneir Renz, a former colonel during the Clone Wars, who lived past the time of the films.

 

Smuggler of Mos Espa-"Luke wasn't a hitman. He wasn't out to necessarily kill anyone."

Luke isn't a sitting duck either and he hasn't been given Jedi Arts training just to be told that he can't use them against anyone. How else are Yoda and Obi-wan gonna rid the galaxy of the Sith if they won't allow Luke to do it? They can't expect Anakin/Vader to do it since they don't believe he can renounce the Dark Side.


Ididitall4thewookie-"Why would Vader be Luke's last obstacle to becoming a Jedi Knight if their whole goal was to defeat Palpatine and bring down the Empire?

Because Vader stands in the way of Luke accomplishing that goal. Once Vader is bumped off, then Luke can proceed to tackle down the Emperor.

"At that point they would have to know that he would just train another apprentice or possibly try to sway Luke himself."

They also know that it will take a lifetime for the Emperor to train another apprentice which he doesn't have time for since he has to contend with Luke and if Luke can resist the Dark Side (which he does), then the Emperor will never be able to sway him as easily as he did with Anakin.

"Why wouldnt they just train him longer and put him up against Palps himself?"

Because Luke didn't give them the chance to do so when he ran off to Bespin.

"At no time does OB1 tell Luke he must kill Vader - Luke infers it by assuming."

At the same time, Obi-wan doesn't tell Luke that he CANNOT kill Vader either and instead of correcting Luke when he made that assumption by saying, "You must reach out to him. Get him to realise that using the Dark Side is a mistake so he would rebel against the Emperor and fulfill the prophecy", he only confirmed Luke's assumption by saying that "The Emperor has already won".

Basically, Obi-wan was implying to Luke that he has to kill Vader because he isn't counting on Anakin/Vader to reject the Dark Side.

"We know that Ben has no qualms about manipulating Luke, so why wouldn't he let Luke think what he wants to think?"

Because Obi-wan doesn't want Luke to believe that he's about to fight his own father to the death fearing that Luke will refuse to do so which is why neither Obi-wan nor Yoda wanted to tell Luke the truth about his father until Vader spilled the beans for them.

"They are sending Luke on his last test to becoming a Jedi, and what is the Jedi order about? Love, forgiveness, COMPASSION."

None of that is going to stop a Sith Lord from trying to kill you and both Obi-wan and Yoda know this. Vader and the Emperor are too dangerous to be left alive which is why both of them has to die and the Jedi wants Luke to kill them.

"Luke killing Vader would defeat the purpose of what they were doing with Luke."

If that were true, then Obi-wan should've been a Sith Lord when he killed Darth Maul but he's not so having Luke kill Vader will not push him to the Dark Side but having the Emperor encourage him to do so will.

 

yep!!!!!!!!!