PT Were Obi-Wan and Anakin ever friends?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Garrett Atkins, Feb 16, 2013.

Moderators: Bazinga'd
  1. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    I'm talking about both of their actions, mostly Vader rather than Obi Wan, compare to similar cases.

    Not to say Ulic, even Exar Kun hesitated a bit before killed his master.
  2. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    and Anakin was not totally destroyed as we see in the end

    --

    was Obi-Wan to know that?

    Obi-Wan wasn't a person to go around shouting "i've forseen it i've forseen it" in either trilogy

    they are one person to an extent,

    depends on what you think the darkside is though

    can it "overtake your mind and spirit?

    or is it you commanding the darkside?
    benknobi1 likes this.
  3. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    So like we discussed earlier.

    Obi Wan claimed he was a good friend of Anakin, but he refused to believe there was good in Anakin anymore, when Luke, who never saw the good Anakin, but only Vader and almost lost his life in Vader's hand, believed there is still good in him. Isn't it ironic?

    When the Senate sentenced Ulic, the Dark Lord of the Sith to death for his crimes and betrayal against the republic, Cay still beg the senate to spare him. There is the difference, from both sides.
  4. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    a few counter arguments in your proposed irony:

    1) he was his dad, a blood relation, he could have thought

    i: it could happen to me

    ii: he's my dad, so i must believe there is good in him AKA: natural bond emotion

    2) Luke sensed good in him because of that close blood relation, and was actually in his presence when they fought,

    you could argue that by the time Obi-Wan and Anakin fought on Mustafar the darkside was so strong in him that at that point there was no way of redemption.
  5. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Yes but he wasn't raised by Vader, only knew Vader as the enemy until the end of EP V. Obi Wan, claimed to be his good friend, trained him, fought alongside him, had such weak belief compare to others. I also gave examples of how real brothers act against each other, even when one of them became the Dark Lord of the Sith.

    It's not either Anakin or Obi Wan's fault that they are not that close friend, I'm just saying PT portrayed their relationship quite accurately. They are friends but not that close like some people thought.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Feb 16, 2013
  6. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    As has been brought up many times before:

    Luke believed in Anakin's good on pure faith. Obi-Wan did not believe out of actual proof (what he saw and knew).

    It's rather unrealistic to think because someone somewhere some other time behaved/believed a certain way, ALL others should believe/behave the exact same in another time. Obi-Wan is under no obligation to behave like Cay because "Cay behaved that way once."

    What - excuse me? Prior examples of "real brothers" is proof of any other brotherly-like friendship is absent because it's different? Yeah, right.
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Feb 16, 2013
    FARK2005, Darth_Pevra and BoromirsFan like this.
  7. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Obi Wan could behave whatever way he wanted to behave. I'm just saying it proved his relationship with Anakin were not that strong compare to Padme and Luke, or like Cay and Ulic.

    And I'm not just talking about Obi Wan. Vader also didn't show any trace of former friendship when he killed Obi Wan, if they once were really good friends he would at least ask Obi Wan to surrender rather than just deliver the killing blow. This also didn't awake his good at all, unlike he later did to Luke.
  8. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    What do you mean? Obi-Wan never asked Anakin so surrender on Mustafar...he just skipped straight to kill mode. Just because someone was once your friend doesn't mean they can't later become your most hated enemy.
  9. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    Hmm, like so many other aspects of these movies (and life in general), it depends on each person's interpretation. I think they were very good friends, and some other posts have pointed out the parts of the movies that showed that. In fact, I think that their actions after Anakin turned are indicative of a strong (platonic) love that has been twisted by tragic events into hatred (Vader) and grief (Obi-Wan - to such an extent that he considers his friend to be dead). It's a sad truth that powerful 'positive' emotion can become equally powerful 'negative' emotion.
    Samnz, BoromirsFan and Valairy Scot like this.
  10. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    In the EP III novel Anakin gave Obi Wan a chance to go away, but Obi Wan refused to leave Padme to Anakin and wanted to carry her for medical help.

    I mean in EP IV Anakin should ask Obi Wan to surrender if they were really good friends when Obi Wan put off the lightsaber. But no, so from their interaction in OT, it's hard to believe their friendship once was that strong.
  11. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Hard for you to believe...and that's ok. Opinions are based on subjective experiences...so that means you are right and so are we.
  12. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    I don't have a problem with that.
  13. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    Perhaps people's first impressions of anakin mouthing off to Obi in the apartment is a little too hard to erase? Even if it wasn't his first scene in the film....
    Samnz likes this.
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    That scene was super uncomfortable to watch but I don't think Anakin even heard Obi-Wan. I think he jumped straight from "I want to know who is trying to kill me" to "We will find out who is trying to kill you, Padme."
    Samnz likes this.
  15. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I think the issue mostly comes down to the fact that Anakin and Obi-Wan aren't really "buddies" -- they don't have that sort of casual, equal friendship that Luke and Han share. I do think, though, that they are friends but that this relationship is complicated by the huge variety of other roles they play:

    Master-Padawan
    Student-Teacher
    Guardian-Charge
    Brothers-in-arms

    And so on and so forth. Luke and Han were equals and thus their relationship was never strained in the same manner that Anakin and Obi-Wan's was. There was never that harsh, hierarchical structure in place that meant that one would have obvious authority over the other which can cause tension.

    But really, I honestly don't see how people find it confusing that Obi-Wan would call Anakin a "good friend" -- just in the ROTS opening alone, we see him save Obi-Wan's life multiple times. If you don't consider someone like that a good friend, I would hate to see what hoops your friends had to jump through to earn that status.

    Part of the problem is, of course, the retcons -- when that line was originally written, Anakin wasn't Obi-Wan's student and thus he remembered him differently. But we see even in ANH that Vader is obsessed with confronting and surpassing Obi-Wan. I think the PT did a good job of melding these somewhat disparate presentations of character into something cohesive and understandable.
  16. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    That's really simple, Pietts Hat. In AOTC they fight all the time. As soon as Padmé is about hearing range, Anakin starts whining about his teacher.
    In ROTS Obi-Wan leaves Vader to roast in horrible pain instead of finishing him off.

    Because he hates Obi-Wan? Is that such a hard concept to grasp? Part of the problem is that Vader knows no mercy, not to himself, not to Obi-Wan, not to anyone and he demonstrates this all the time. So why should Obi-Wan think he of all people should find compassion at Vaders hand?

    Plus they both have been traumatized by the other. In you world is it not possible to destroy love and replace it with hatred? It happens all the time in reality.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Feb 17, 2013
  17. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    Agree. Anakin wanted to impress Padmé, he wanted to make her feel save and show that he will bring her attackers to justice. Obi-Wan was the "victim" at that moment, but he wasn't consciously trying to undermine Obi-Wan's authority or anything. He was in love.

    Additionally, I think many viewers look at Anakin's and Obi-Wan's friendship too much from an outsider's perspective. Obi-Wan wasn't there when Anakin was a bit disrespectul (with the exception of the above-named scene) a few times.
    And if you lose as much as Obi-Wan did .... if you live 20 years in desert exile...you don't remember one or two quarrallings....you rembember the good parts. You remember how he saved your life, you remember common missions and adventures, you remember light moments in the elevator and your brotherly good-bye when you started your mission to Utapau and never met THAT former student again. And of course you remember what destroyed all that.
    Memory is colored. Memory isn't an exact record from a third party's perspective.
    Last edited by Samnz, Feb 17, 2013
  18. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    In the RTJ it was cut but there was a scene of Obi-wan telling Luke he also thought like Luke and tried to svae him but failed. It was cut because they had Vader say the same thing. I still chuckle at Obi-wan saying he thought he could instruct as well as Yoda, which since Yoda's apprentice also fell to darkside, show's he did do as well :p

    But I guess it's all down to a certain point of view ;)

  19. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    He may not have asked him to surrender directly, but his behaviour made his intention clear: if Anakin would not stop what he was doing willingly, then he would stop him, but he left the decision of how things would proceed from thereon to Anakin.

    If Obi-Wan had gone straight to “kill mode” as you call it, I think Obi-Wan would have done more than simply igniting his lightsaber and awaiting Anakin’s reaction, rather, he would have been the one to attack. And I very much doubt Obi-Wan would have attacked him if Anakin had thrown away his weapon and refused to fight.

    I have said it before, IMO, Obi-Wan is behaving no different than a police officer dealing with an extremely dangerous criminal. He gave Anakin two chances to back down, and when Anakin ignored him and attacked, he defended himself.

    I think that’s a strange argument.

    Since you like to draw analogies to the Qel-Droma-brothers (though I think that is problematic because the contexts are very different) I will use your logic to that situation:

    So by your reasoning, since Ulic didn’t offer Cay a chance to surrender before killing him, they could not be very close.

    But, you’ll probably argue, Ulic deeply regretted having killed his brother and abandoned the Dark side. And this is where the different contexts make a comparison problematic:

    When Vader faced Obi-Wan on the Deathstar he had spent 20 years deeply submerged in the Dark side and had spent 20 years (wrongfully, because it was his own actions that caused the outcome) blaming Obi-Wan for loosing his remaining limbs and ending up in that suit. Vader would have hated anyone he held responsible for his predicament, but the fact that it was Obi-Wan – a person he had once considered to be his father – just made that hate much more potent. So the fact that Obi-Wan and Anakin were enemies by the time of the OT does not exclude that they had once been close – quite the opposite in fact, to quote John Lyly: "As the best wine doth make the sharpest vinegar, so the deepest love turneth to the deadliest hate."

    When the Qel-Droma-brothers faced each other Cay had not caused Ulic horrific injuries (like Obi-Wan had Vader) and Ulic had not spent 20 years as a Dark Lord of the Sith.

    If, on the other hand, Obi-Wan had not defended himself on Mustafar when Anakin jumped at him, and Anakin had proceeded to cut Obi-Wan down then you could compare Anakin-Obi-Wan with Ulic-Cay – and I think that if this was how things had happened instead, then I think there is a good possibility that Anakin would have reacted like Ulic did.

    But as it stands, Anakin vs. Obi-Wan in ANH can not be compared to Ulic vs. Cay.
    lbr789, Valairy Scot and Eryndil like this.
  20. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I like how when Obi-Wan says "he was a cunning warrior" it cuts to Anakin charging at Dooku and getting lightning in the face. lmaaaooo so cunning.
    fett 4 likes this.
  21. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    Yes, they are good friends.

    They are esstiential the old married couple who have spent far too much time with each other. In some ways, they remind me of Han and Chewie.
  22. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    My fave is him saying he how the lightsaber was a Jedi Kinghts weapon for a more civilised age and then cut too Grevious with Sabers, and people getting limbs sliced off [face_laugh]
  23. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I don't think whining is any indicator of a lack of friendship, though -- especially at that age and at that point in Anakin's life. AOTC shows that this is his first assignment alone and he's 19/20 years old. I can recall how a lot of 18 year olds buck under the authority of their parents before heading off to college at that time -- not because they don't love them, but because they're eager to get out on their own and prove their independence. Obi-Wan is really the only family Anakin has at this point (and Anakin looks to him as a father), so it wouldn't surprise me that he would complain and be frustrated -- he feels he is being held back (as a lot of people do at that age).

    For example, look at how Luke talks about Owen in ANH -- he does almost nothing but complain about him and to him because he wants to go to the academy and get off-planet. And so it's similar with Anakin. I mean, Obi-Wan is basically Anakin's mentor, parent, guardian, and teacher all rolled into one. So some bristling is to be expected, I would think.

    I do think they're friends though, especially after Anakin is knighted and they are on more equal footing. They just naturally fall into step better because that gulf of authority isn't nearly as wide. Hence why they get along so much better in ROTS -- as we see in the opening battle.

    That's just my analysis though. I consider my parents my friends, but my relationship with them isn't the same thing as with my peers. Again, I think it goes back to them being friends but not "buddies."

    In regards to Obi-Wan leaving Vader to burn, truthfully, I think Obi-Wan had ceased thinking of him as Anakin by that point and I think Yoda encouraged him to take on this mentality -- "the boy you trained, gone he is - consumed by Darth Vader." I think it was in large part a defense against what Anakin had done.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Feb 17, 2013
    Valairy Scot and Eryndil like this.
  24. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Actually, when that line was said, Vader wasn't Luke's father, so Obi-Wan was really thinking about his good friend but sadly that friend is now dead.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  25. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    And he was a good friend. :p

    From Obi-Wan's point of view
    Last edited by GGrievous, Feb 17, 2013
Moderators: Bazinga'd