Were Obi Wan and Yoda wrong for lying to Luke?

I'm sure this has been discussed, but bottom line...

Were they justified in creating this huge lie? I mean, Thou Shall Not Lie, right? These guys are Jedis? Was this kind of lying going on before the Fall of the Republic? To tell someone that their father is dead, when he's actually alive, well isn't that wrong, wrong, wrong?

From a spiritual point of view, isn't the truth always the most important thing? How can someone be expected to gain spiritual enlightenment when they are basing their identity on lies? I can see not telling a child. But Luke was a young man.

Clearly, this is a case of do the ends justify the means? But that really only works if the puppetmasters who are pulling the strings are infallible, and in this case, they had already proven that wasn't true. Can you imagine if Bush or Cheney made up lies that they thought would cause us to act for our own good...wait, I mean...my point is...that is not acceptable.

When Luke asks Obi Wan why he lied, his answer was about point of view. Which point of view was that again? Oh yeah, right. The old more machine now than man, twisted and evil line. I'm sorry, but even if Obi Wan and Yoda believed that Anakin was truly dead on the inside.....they were totally wrong.

 

"Thou Shall Not Lie, right? These guys are Jedis?"

First of all..that is a commandment - the Jedi are not monks.
They're not a Christian Order.

Second..Anakin was dead from a certain point of view. Everything that was good in Anakin
was gone and only Vader remained.
I think Obi-Wan and Yoda were more worried about losing Luke to Vader or even worse
Vader killing Luke. If Luke had of known who Vader was from day one do you think he
would have engaged in any training? No, he would have immediately made tracks for Vader
to confront him. Luke was naive enough that he would have thought Vader would not hurt him
or protect him from the Emperor b/c he's his son, but that may not have happened in the
beginning. Without the training, Luke most likely would have been forced to turn to the
darkside then all hopes for the rebellion and Luke would be lost.
That's not worth twisting the truth? To protect Luke and the rebellion?
IMO it is. Obi-Wan and Yoda weren't malevolent schemers who wanted to frig Luke over.
They wanted and needed to protect him and keep him from running off in an emotional state
to face Vader.

 

Anakin was dead from a certain point of view. Everything that was good in Anakin was gone and only Vader remained....

Not true. Not true at all. He was not dead. There was still good left in him. Padme knew this. Luke knew this.

What if Luke had been killed by Vader on Cloud City? Granted, if Aunt Beru had balls, she be Uncle Owen, but still...what if? Obi Wan and Yoda would have definitely been to blame.

 

No, they wouldn't have. He did the very thing they were trying to protect him
against - rushing off in an emotional frenzy.
He went to save his friends, but doing that would of course mean coming
across Vader which he did..and we know the result.

 

EXACTLY. Anakin was not dead and I don't care who's point of view they're looking at it from. He may have been consumed by the dark side and taken over by Vader but deep down Anakin was still there. He was not dead and this is apparent in ROTJ when he throws the Emperor down the bottomless hole.

The "POV" thing was just Lucas' way of covering it up because he's making it up as he goes. There's nothing wrong with that but you've got to be a blind fanboy to think otherwise.

As you said Obi, Padme and Luke both said there's still good in him. While Obi and Yoda basically said he's completely gone and dead "from a certain point of view".

So you're telling me that Padme and Luke knew better than Ben and Yoda, two accomplished and wise Jedi masters....

Sure.

 

I agree with everything you say above, except for the last part.

You question whether it's possible that Luke and Padme could know something that Jedi Masters like Yoda and Obi Wan did not see. On the surface, I see your complaint...but...

Rather than say Lucas was making it up as he went and all that (which certainly may be valid), I'd explain it a different way.

The Jedi code about not having attachments was flawed. Not just in this instance, but in many.

Examples)
1) When little Annie went before the council, the Jedis were total jerks to him. Here's this little kid, he doesn't have the Padawan training, and they're treating him like he does. He's ten. Compliment him on his talents, don't accuse him of being afraid. This first meeting between Annie and the Jedi Council certainly played a major part in his fall.

2) When Shmi dies in Anakin's arms, the Jedi were totally unequipped to deal with it. They had no understanding of what loss means to a normal, emotional person.

3) When Anakin comes to Yoda for advice, Yoda clearly demonstrates that he doesn't get it. Never having been in love himself, Yoda gives his Padawan ridiculous advice. Is there anyone who thinks that advice was good mentoring?

It was the Jedi's lack of experience in the love department that caused Anakin's fall. And it was the same inexperience that caused Yoda and Ben to lie to Luke. They didn't get it. Did it all work out in the end? Yes. But lying is wrong.

 

They have more faith in Anakin, sure. The Jedi clearly believe that when you turn to the Dark Side you cease to be who you were and are transformed by the Dark Side(it's admittedly a massive retcon by Lucas, but that'd be the in-universe justification.) Yoda's "The boy you trained, gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader." which wasn't in the presence of anyone that wasn't a Jedi Master makes that fairly clear to me.

However Yoda never states Luke has to kill Palpatine, it doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't believe it, but it's still interesting.

 

Ah, very well said there guys.

 

Everything they said was true in a certain point of view. The jedi were just being metaphoric to motivate Luke to follow the lightside and avenge the good.

Also, if Luke knew his father was not only a machine but the most evilest machine in the galaxy, he wouldn't be a very strong hero. It'd be like angsty luke trying to save the galaxy.

 

Yeah....the result was finding out that Darth Vader is his father. If Luke hadn't gone to Bespin, he would've never learned the truth and I doubt that either Obi-wan nor Yoda were willing to tell Luke since they don't want him to be distracted from the primary goal they've set out since ROTS, namely "Destroy the Sith, we must".

But if Luke were to find out after he kills Vader, he'd be pissed off at Obi-wan and Yoda for not telling him the truth and he will repeat Anakin's mistake by turning against them and joining the Emperor as his Sith apprentice.

 

George made it up along the lines, sure,but not as impulsive and careless as people like to make it out to be.

Details like "certain POV" and "Darth Father" was a story direction that was noted along with other possible story lines and thats just the one he went with.

This isn't the topic of the thread though so I won't say any more.

 

I would like to think that Yoda would have told him that Darth Vader was his father after his training was complete. Correct if i am wrong, but i don't believe Yoda ever told luke that his father was dead did he? I think the lines "unfortunate that I know the truth," No that you rushed to face him, that incomplete was your training, NOT READY FOR THE BURDEN WERE YOU." seems to me that maybe Yoda would have eventually told him that vader was his father.

Or, if Yoda believed that Anakin was truelly lost, which I don't believe he did, would have said to luke something along these lines. Luke your father turned to the darkside and once you do that you dismiss your former self. It is possible that vader denies ever being a jedi and being anakin skywalker.

i believe that yoda would tell him the truth (what yoda believed), either the former or the latter, whichever yoda believed. I tend to think that the first scenerio would have taken place because that is what yoda believes.

 

But Yoda wasn't very honest with Luke from the beginning since he was going along with Obi-wan's "certain-point-of-view" charade. He too has made Luke believe that Anakin and Vader were 2 seperate people by withholding information and if he really believed that Anakin can still be saved from the Dark Side, he wouldn't have tried to stop Luke from going to Bespin nor would he be disappointed that Luke now knows the truth. Yoda would've known that seeing Luke alive would spark what's left of the Light side within Anakin but instead of telling Luke to motivate Vader into giving up the Dark Side, he simply says "confront him". That only tells Luke that he has to repeat what he did in ESB only he has to kill his own father this time.

 

One of the reasons I think they lied to Luke was to ensure he would destroy Vader. Its been discussed that Ben and Yoda may not have believed Anakin could be saved, so for the best interest of the galaxy he must be killed along with the Emporer.

In ROTJ Obi Wan says its unfortunate Luke knows the truth about his father, luke replies
'unfortunate I know the truth?' Later he tells Obi Wan he can't kill his own father which is what has to be done. Luke being the resourceful Jedi knight he is, is able to save the galaxy without bloodshed.

Except they both died.

 

I agree with Obironsolo: The Jedi Code of avoiding attachments is flawed. I remember reading in a non-licensed book entitled "Star Wars on Trial" that had a passage saying that one of the biggest mistakes the Jedi Order made was to tell their most sexually active, most emotionally unstable Padawan that "a Jedi must never, ever get laid."

"The Jedi of the Old Republic discouraged the emotional connections of love and friendship; Luke is defined to his very core by those connections."

The Jedi dismissed their connections and attachments, and look where it got them. Now, admittedly Anakin's fall is the result of a number of factors including the insidious influence of Palpatine (yes, I made a pun.) But the Jedi were also at fault for not understanding where Anakin was coming from.

By contrast Luke's character is defined by his connections. He rushes off to see if Owen and Beru are all right. He stands by the Rebel Alliance in their hour of need in the face of certain death, and when everything is about to fall apart, Han bails him out in the nick of time. He cuts his Jedi training short to rescue his friends from a disturbing vision, and even though he loses his hand and learns a disturbing truth, he would rather jump down the shaft and risk his own life than engage in a partnership with his father that would surely kill his friends and destroy everything the Rebellion has worked for.

Ultimately, it allows him the compassion to see the good in his father. It is not the quick thrust of a lightsaber that saves the galaxy. It is this compassion that redeems his father, destroys the Sith, and ends Imperial tyranny.

 

It's not a flaw. It's what keeps Jedi from becoming Sith.

They didn't accuse him, they knew that he was afraid because he is attached to his mother. He had fear and that is a strike against him.

The hell they don't. They do understand what it does to normal people. But Anakin isn't a normal person. He's strong with the Force. To use your fear, anger and hate is to invite the dark side. He had the training to deal with this and he chose to not act like a Jedi.

Yes, I do. Because it is true. Anakin from day one was already condemning Padme to death, forgetting his training which states that the future is not set in stone. It is always in motion. Yoda told Anakin to train himself to let go of his fears and that is sound advice. Sympathetic ears never help no matter what you want to believe. If you've been in his boat, then you'd know this. I have been there. I've lived with a family member who was dying of cancer. I had to deal with that everyday for three agonizing years. So did my mom, brother and sister. But you know what we did. We didn't kill people to save that person. We didn't sell our souls to the devil to save my stepfather. And most importantly, we didn't live our life in fear of his death. We lived normally. Did our normal routine. Went to school and work. Hung out with friends, went camping, went shopping, spent time as a family. We were not controlled by our fears and we did not let our anger consume us. We rejoiced when he died, knowing that he was no longer suffering from the affliction he endured. I'm not the only one either who has done this.

No it isn't. Lying is something that we all do. And there are lies that are told for the right reason.

Yoda: "Unexpected this is and unfortunate."

Luke: "Unfortuante that I knew the truth?"

Yoda: "No, unfortunate that you rushed to face him. That incomplete was your training. That not ready for the burden, were you."

Luke wasn't ready to know that his father was alive and a monster, because he was seduced by the dark side. Something Luke had no clue about because he was raised without knowledge of the Force. Only when he had completed his training would he be told the truth. As it was, as far as they knew, Vader was dead. He was left to rot on Mustafar and eu aside, the Jedi don't know that Sidious saved his charbroiled butt.

 

It also makes them emotionally inhibited which causes them to be incapable of giving a Jedi any proper motivation into giving up the Dark Side. That's why Yoda condemns Anakin so quickly after seeing hologram footage of him killing younglings, why Obi-wan didn't go with Padme's approach instead of making him into BBQued chop suey, and why they both tricked Luke into killing his own father by making him think that he and Vader are 2 different people.

But he is still an innocent boy and they treat him like he is the son of Satan. This is all about "cause and effect" and by treating Anakin as such, they have realised their worst fears thus endangering themselves and the Jedi Order.

The Jedi may be aware of what loss can do to a normal person but they refuse to provide any comfort or emotional support when that person has suffered greatly for that loss due to their no-attachment rules. Because of this, they've lost Anakin to the Dark Side and to PalpSidious and furthermore, just because Anakin has all the training doesn't mean he will learn anything on his own. He still needs guidance and support and being told to "let go" would sound cold and heartless to someone like him because you're saying to him, "Don't care for your loved ones. Let them die!" and he's not going to hear it.

But Anakin is NOT going to believe that the future isn't set in stone because he already saw his visions of his mother's death come true and nothing is going to convince him that his Padme visions won't come true either. The "letting go" advice may be sound advice to people like you but it's not to people like Anakin because they feel that you don't care about the pain that they are going through and are dismissing the dying like they're just another day of work.

 

1. No Jedi had ever come back from the dark side. It's kinda hard to have faith when no Sith Lord turns away from power.

2. Obi-wan realizes this which is why he walks away. Padme failed because he saw her as a naivee girl who didn't know what she was talking about.

3. They didn't trick Luke. As far as they knew, Vader was dead and gone. Once they know, they also know from the history of the Sith. The good person is gone and all that's left is the Sith Lord. Besides, his father has to die to end the conflict.

They don't treat him like the son of Satan. Yoda asked how he felt. Ki-Adi asked if he was thinking of his mother. They were wanting to see if his attachment to his mother would be a problem and it was.

Comfort wasn't what Anakin wanted. Padme tried to comfort him, but he didn't want it. He shut her out. No, he wanted something else. He wanted to defy nature. He wanted to the powers of a god. He wanted to be all powerful. He wanted Yoda to tell him that it was possible to stop someone from dying and that is not within the powers of a Jedi. Palpatine told him that a Sith Lord could do this and so Anakin went for it. Anakin didn't need guidence. He needed to use his head and think.

And that is his failure. He fails to consider that not every vision comes true. He fails to remember his training.

Caring isn't what turned him. It's forgetting his Jedi teachings, his wife and mother's words about having to accept change and that he cannot fight it.

And I say to them, get over it.

He was going t

 

Sinister, I am sorry to hear about your family having to deal with cancer, as my family has also had that experience. I understand what you are saying about accepting change, but I really think it's a bad analogy.

Perhaps it is right to accept that death is part of life when someone you love has been diagnosed with incurable cancer. It would seem to me that an unwilling to accept the truth is not in line with spiritual growth. However, if the diagnosis is not as certain, and maybe their is a 50% chance the patient will live, it would be appropriate to seek out all solutions. I am not advocating what Anakin did at all, but the advice given to him should have been to meditate and essentially ask the force for possible solutions. As we all know, Padme's death was ultimately a self fullfilling thing, and it was the Jedi's weak advice, combined with Palpatine's genuine advice

In the case of Anakin's dream about Padme, and while I agree with PMT99 on almost everything, this is the one area I don't agree with you also. Anakin did not believe that her death was certain, and he did not believe that all of his dreams come true. As a young boy, Anakin dreamed of becoming a Jedi and coming back to free all the slaves. This dream never came true. The dream about his mother did. This was the third dream we are aware about, and clearly, Anakin felt as if he could control the outcome. He decided to turn bad because he believed it would save Padme, not because he thought her death was inevitable.

Yoda's advice was terrible, Sinister. It didn't even apply. Why would Anakin learn to let go of someone he is dreaming about dying? Wouldn't he wanna try and save her?

 

I think if they had told Luke the truth then Luke would have desired Jedi in the spirit of revenge notthe spirit of justice. Also he would have went headlong into a battle with Vader with a mixed sense of duties. If Luke would have known Vader was his father from that start, he would not have seen him for the dark knight he was. Also just as Padme was ill equiped to fight Vader so would Luke have been. Even though Obi Wan could fight him, it was only family that could reach Vader's heart, but it would be a battle. Only when Luke was strong enough to fight him could he hope to reach through to him. I think the lie was really told with that spirit in mind and not to decieve Luke.

And as far as the biblical reference is concerned, God judges according to the motive of the heart. In most cases a lie only serves to promote a wicked motive, but not in this case. The motive was to protect the innocent and bring hope to the galaxy. There was no sin there. This is why the Christ simplified the commandments to love of God first then love of mankind second. And yes; The Christ came to fulfill the law not destroy it; a fib told in this manner doesn't remove love from the equation. And besides; what Obi Wan told Luke was in fact the truth, from the point of view of justice for the Republic.

Anyway the bible is a different set of mythos than what Star Wars is, so it doesn't really apply to base one set of moral ideas on the prerequisites of another.

 

Because the death was seen as natural. Anakin did not know that her death was a result of him. And Yoda is not informed of this either. There's a fine line between saving someone because you can and saving someone from nature. To stop someone from taking another's life is natural. It is within our grasp and capability. But to defy nature, that's where the problem lies. Anakin wanted the power to defy nature. He saw her dying in childbirth. Not from a Lightsaber blade, blaster bolt, toxic dart, explosive or vibroblade. No, Anakin sees her giving birth and then she dies. To die in childbirth, that's a natural thing. Nature takes its course. This is what we see in his visions. So what happens is Anakin wants to stop that natural part of life, which is death, the final stage. He doesn't see that he is the cause of her death. He doesn't see anyone killing her. He just sees what he sees. He does not even question why Obi-wan is with her instead of himself. So what we have here is a Faustian pact. Anakin wants the knowledge to stop someone from dying. The Jedi cannot give this to him, as Yoda states in both ROTS and ROTJ, death by natural causes cannot be stopped.

Yoda: "Death is a natural part of life."

Yoda: "Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong! Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall. That is the way of things ... the way of the Force."

Qui-gon even confirms that this is true when he speaks with Yoda on the matter of retaining one's identity.

Qui-gon: "The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself."

Anakin's failure is that he listens to a man who claims that he has all the answers. That it is possible to defy nature, which the Jedi consider to be an unnatural act. And because it is an action and not reaction, Anakin chooses it.

Palpatine: "He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying."

Anakin: "He could actually save people from death?"

Palpatine: "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."


Anakin: "Is it possible to learn this power?"

Palpatine: "Not from a Jedi."

Anakin isn't interested in a sympathetic ear. It doesn't help him at all. A sympathetic ear doesn't always help. What we as humans want is the ability to be in control. To take charge and do something. The problem for Anakin is that unlike most people who come to accept death, he chooses to live in every stage but acceptence. Worse, he has someone who is filling his head full of garbage, in an effort to get him to do what he wants. Palpatine knows that the only way to get Anakin is to give him a reason to need him. Normal people know that there is no magic elixir that cures all. All we have is faith. But with Anakin, he has a power within his grasp and here is a man who tells him that he can have all kinds of power, by turning against everything that he has once believed in. And that once he has done so, he will have the ability to learn how to defy nature, because someone else has done it.

 

1. Not one Jedi even tried to bring someone back from the Dark Side and that's one of the drawbacks of having no attachments. Once someone has given in to the Dark Side, the Jedi have already made up their minds that the person is evil and should be destroyed instead of talking some sense to them and motivating them to give up the Dark Side.

2. Padme failed because Obi-wan ruined her chances by stowing away in her ship and making her look guilty in Anakin's eyes. In given time, Anakin would've eventually cracked and realise his mistakes just like he did when he was talking to Luke on Endor. Obi-wan already gave up on Anakin once he choked Padme which is why he pulled out his lightsaber and forced Anakin to fight him.

3. Even after Obi-wan and Yoda found out that Vader is alive, they still made Luke believe that Vader and Anakin are 2 seperate people, even when they had confessed so they are tricking him.

They were practically telling Anakin that he is wrong to worry about his mother all because it would lead him to the Dark Side. Anakin's attachment to his mother did become a problem but only because the Jedi didn't try to free her from slavery and ignoring the fact that Anakin is distressing over being seperated from her. Yoda knew that Anakin was in pain after his mother died but he still did nothing to relieve him from his suffering and it was that failure to act that led Anakin to become Darth Vader.

Comfort and Guidance is exactly what Anakin needed because his head is constanly showing him images of Padme dying and he NEEDED to be told that all the worrying he's doing is just stressvision making him think that the worst is going to happen when it actually isn't. He's incapable of thinking for himself so he needs someone to give him a push into whichever direction they send him and he had Palpatine with the Dark Side direction and then he had Luke with the Jedi direction.

If somebody tells you to forget about the people you care about, your training wouldn't mean jack especially if you can't do anything with it. What good are the Jedi and their training if they are going to sit on their butts and allow the Sith to tear the galaxy apart for 20 years? That's why both Anakin and Luke were willing to act, although Anakin did it for the wrong reasons. Besides, Anakin already had 1 vision come true and there was nothing that could convince him that his 2nd vision would come true either.

Just because the future is in motion doesn't mean that it's not going to happen.

 

The Jedi did try, once upon a time, to bring the Sith back. And these attempts all failed. That's the problem with the dark side. It's power and power is not easily given up. If history is indication.

Anakin did realize his mistakes, but he continued to rationalize it away as for the greater good of everyone. Anakin only cracked with Luke because he choked Padme and killed her. Obi-wan didn't give up on Anakin until after he sliced him up. He was doing his duty when they fought. They both did. They both knew that it was duty that drove them to fight. Obi-wan didn't want to kill Anakin, but Anakin wouldn't listen to reason. He was lost because he would not let go of his anger and hate, his greed had the better of him.

They aren't tricking him. They are going by their Jedi beliefs. Once someone is lost to the dark side, that goodness is gone. That person is no longer the same person. When Yoda said that Anakin is gone, consumed by Vader, that is the Jedi belief there. It's not a lie, it is as Obi-wan says, a point of view.

Well, see here's the thing. Shmi was free and she still died. Anakin didn't start to worry about his mother again until after she was free and a captive of the Tuskens. Padme was not a captive of anyone and had her freedom, but he still saw her death. It's fear of death, not the conditions that drive him. And how do you relieve someone of fear? What, freeing Shmi and taking her to Coruscant will magically mean that she'll never get hit by a speeder or an assassin could be sent to kill her? No. That's the thing. Fear exists no matter what you do and where you go. Only you yourself can relieve your own fear. No one else can do it for you.

Anakin did have someone to guide him and he was sent to Utapau. Comfort doesn't help no matter what you like to think. Anakin needed to take control on his own and has had thirteen years of training to do this. He choose to do things the quick and easy way.

 

They didn't try hard enough like Luke did with Vader. The Jedi haven't shown anything to convince the Sith that the Dark Side is nothing more than poison wrapped in a sugar-coated topping.

I don't believe that Anakin realized his mistakes because the Dark Side has consumed him to the point where as Obi-wan put it, "he unwittingly let Palpatine twist his mind" into becoming a Sith Lord. Also, Obi-wan already made up his mind about Anakin which is why he pulled out his lightsaber and he didn't try hard enough to reason with Anakin.

Saying that it's a point of view IS tricking Luke because Obi-wan still wants him to think that Anakin and Vader are 2 different people but they're not. Luke proved it at the end of ROTJ when his sacrifice convinced Vader to give up the Dark Side and fulfill the prophecy which make Obi-wan and Yoda's Jedi beliefs incorrect.

First off, Anakin doesn't know that Shmi is free and nobody from the Jedi Order bothered to check up on her so Anakin has been suffering from the seperation long before he had the visions. Second, the minute Palpatine mentioned Darth Plagueis's ability to cheat death has made Padme his captive. Anakin knows that if he doesn't help Palpatine destroy the Jedi, he'll be forced to watch Padme die so he had to join up with him. Third, you relive a person's fears by encouraging them...give them hope that anything is possible because they will never give up their fears if noone believes in them. Lastly, no speeder nor assassin would go anywhere near Shmi as long as Anakin's senses alert him of any danger.

All because Palpatine is undermining all of Anakin's training by meddling with his head and filling it with false beliefs that he's better than all the Jedi. Anakin can't help himself if someone doesn't give him the "right" motivation and overpower Palpatine's influence over him.

 

Yes, they lied to Luke. But I don't think they were wrong for doing it. Luke had to find out the truth on his own.