PT Were the Clone Wars inevitable without Palpatine?

Saying that they want to test their "New" army, that's really a year old, and that was battle hardened against pirates (thru actual combat) against a planet that won't fight back is like me saying

I just bought a car a year ago, put 6,000 miles on it mostly highway, but I want to test my "New" car (even though its a year old) by driving it down the street at 5 miles an hour.

 

The army had never been used to invade a world before.

Do you understand that at all? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

 

The knowledge of the Battle Droids as security was already known. Several was used at Eriadu as protection for Nute Gunray. What wasn't known was that there was a large army of them. That wasn't widely known. Panaka quickly deduced that with that many ships and with the knowledge of the droids, that there was obviously a large army aboard each ship.

You've tested it by driving the car. You haven't tested how fast it will go, how long it can go without stopping for fuel, nor what the impact safety is.

 

Here's another possibility (re: Panaka's knowledge of the army):

We know from the dialog that Padme and Gunray have been in contact several times since the blockade began. It is a strong possibility that during one of these earlier communications, in order to intimidate the Naboo, Gunray showed them a holo of their army assembled in their ships' hangars. Perhaps Gunray could have even boasted about their army's prowess, and Panaka took him at his word.

 

So if Panaka deduces, that there is a large army on the ships, an army he didn't previously know about (but somehow deduces), how does he know it's battle hardened?

From the movie:

"Our security volunteers will be no match against a battle hardened federation army"

Did he deduce the army he didn't previously know about (but deduced) would also be battle hardened?

 

So you don't think it's possible that Gunray could have shown them his assembled army during one of their previous communications?

 

Nope, cause the Jedi are surprised to see it, and surely Naboo would have gotten word out that they had an army. Communications were still up right until the invasion. Furthermore, the Queen and her advisers seemed caught off guard at the communication disruption and the prospects of an invasion.

 

The last time Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were aboard a Trade Federation ship, they only encountered a handful of security droids. Seeing the army would have been a stark contrast to what they had experienced previously. That's what startled the Jedi.

As for the Naboo, they knew that an invasion might occur, but they thought that the legal issues of such an act would keep the TF from actually doing it.

 

I'm sorry guys. I am done with the EU talk. I have shown enough contradictions and holes in the EU story to satisfy myself that the EU story holds no merit.

However, I am still open to discussing what's seen in the movies, and actual real evidence from Lucas himself, towards the discussion of who is taxing whom.

The contradictions from the EU are more than obvious, and why I hate the EU. I am glad they aren't considered Canon anymore.

 

One of them came right out and called it an Invasion Army. If the Trade Fed had tipped their hand to the Naboo that they had said army ready to deploy, then the Naboo would certainly have gotten word to the Senate on Coruscant of the army, and certainly the Jedi would have known going in.

I just watched the scene, they were pretty surprised by the communications disruption and the thought of an invasion.

 

LOL just stop... They were testing their Army against a Planet they knew wouldn't fight back, they weren't testing it to see how well it would do in an actual fight. So my example is 100% accurate.

Saying that they want to test their "New" army, that's really a year old, and that was battle hardened against pirates (thru actual combat) against a planet that won't fight back is like me saying

I just bought a car a year ago, put 6,000 miles on it mostly highway, but I want to test my "New" car (even though its a year old) by driving it down the street at 5 miles an hour.

 

Because they didn't expect them to invade. Panaka said that if they did this, they'd be breaking the law. So long as the blockade was in place, the amount of trouble the Federation wouldn't be as severe as it would be otherwise. You're also missing the point. By invading and occupying the planet as they did, the Droid Army was proven to be more than just defensive. There's a long term goal of using the Droid Army to fight the Clone Army ten years down the line.

 

Like I said, I am done with the EU. You can stretch things as far as you want. Now to stretch it that the Trade Fed knew it needed experience to fight the Clone Wars ten years later is really hanging on by the finger nails.

 

Well quite interesting this.

About the TF/Trade routes/Taxes.

Let me see if I got this right. The trade to worlds on the outer edges was deemed unprofitable and thus those worlds fell behind in economic growth and the like. So to rectify that, the Senate decide to let remove the Tax on Trade to those worlds. In order to promote more trade and economic growth. Ok, makes sense so far.

The TF started to ship goods to those regions but had a problem with pirates. They asked the Republic for help but the Republic did nothing except allow the TF to arm their ships. So the with their armed ships, the TF trade heavily and made a lot of money. So now the Senate decides to Tax the Trade Routes.

Why? The Senate removed the Tax in order to promote Trade and economic growth and then they quickly bring back the same Tax they just got rid off? Don't they think that this would just bring back the situation they had before? With the remote worlds having little to no trade?
I have read that this Tax was because the TF now had armed ships. If so, this is an ARMY Tax, not a Tax on Trade Routes. The TF is being Taxed because it now has a big army.
Calling it a Tax on trade Routes is misleading.

There are several things that make no logical sense here. The TF, and the outer worlds presumably, have a problem with piracy. The TF ask the Senate for help but the Senate does nothing but allow the TF to arm their ships so that they can deal with the problem themselves. And then they decide to Tax the TF for doing something themselves that the Senate should have done. If the Republic had provided the protection then it makes sense that the TF would be Taxed. They pay for a service the Republic is providing. But the TF is doing all the work themselves, they are paying for the protection themselves. And now the Senate, who hasn't done anything to deal with the problem, wants the TF to pay extra for doing all the work themselves?
If the Senate Tax the TF because it is worried that the TF has now got a big army. Well that doesn't solve the problem. The TF still has their big army and now they are pissed at the Senate.
If the Senate is worried that the TF might abuse it's power then the solution is simple, make themselves stronger.
Take over the protection of the Trade Routes and now they can tell the TF that their heavy weapons are not needed. Then they can ask that the TF pay Taxes as the Republic is now providing a service.

If the Tax is really the Senate Taxing the TF, why didn't the TF just stop the Trade with the remote worlds?
That would have been a far more effective protest. The TF could simply paint the Senate as hypocrites.
The Senate removes a Tax to promote Trade and when that Trade comes about, they reinstate the very Tax they just removed. The TF apparently existed before these new Trade routes. So they can simply go back to their old business and let the Senate stand there, looking stupid.
The TF have the moral high ground here but by blockading Naboo, they make themselves look like thugs.
I get that the TF probably aren't very bright but this is a bit too stupid.

About the Droid army/battle hardened and the Naboo invasion.
First I have a bit of a problem with calling a droid army, "Battle hardened" because that phrase often involves emotion. That the soldiers are hardened or toughened by battle. Neither of which would normally apply to a robot army. But I digress.
The invasion of Naboo would not be much of a battle as the Naboo has nothing to put against the TF forces.
The Naboo knew that and so would the TF. So it would not be much of a test. The droid army lands, go to the capital and take the Queen prisoner. End of invasion. It is not much of a test to fight someone that surrenders imideately.

In closing, when I first saw TPM I did think that the Tax was a something the Senate came up with.
But only one Kenobi makes a good point. If the TF ask for the Republic's help in dealing with outlaws and the Senate refuses. Then the TF is given the right to collect Tax in order to pay for their own cost in providing security actually makes sense. If Naboo refuses to pay then it make sense that the TF blockade them and the treaty can fit into that.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The Trade Federation didn't know about the Clone Wars. Palpatine did because he was intending to use the Naboo invasion to start the war. He didn't expect the outcome to turn out as it did, with Maul's death and Nute's failure to maintain control over Naboo, but the whole operation did achieve his goals. He became Chancellor, he created tension between the Senate and the Federation and he was about to create the Clone Army. These three goals were necessary to his larger plan.

It wasn't about the army so much as taking the profits from the Federation and using it to break up what was essentially a monopoly and to help the poor economic structure of the Republic. The Senate had no problem with security, but a major problem with the rumored army that could be a major problem down the line.

That was Palpatine's plan. This is the blurring of lines. The Federation and the Senate were both right and wrong in this situation, but through manipulation, Palpatine was able to plant the seeds of war between two sides. There would be heroes on both sides, because they had legitimate grievances and Palpatine made sure that the factions wouldn't negotiate and settle matters to get back on track. In a more logical and fair system, this would be the case.

Right, but there's more. The Federation has been told that this is about one thing and Palpatine has another idea in mind. So far, the Droid Army has fought battles either aboard starships or any planetside battles while business with being conducted and a raid takes place. They haven't secured a planet before which becomes a major sticking point in the Clone Wars itself. The occupation of various worlds by the Confederacy. Palpatine hasn't told them the true goal of blockading and invading Naboo and spins half truth to get them to go along with it.

 

I think a war with the Trade Federation was inevitable. As for a inter-galactic war between The Republic and Separatists, I think such a conflict would not have come to fruition without Palpatine. What likely would have happened is a private war between Naboo and the Trade Federation (maybe some other systems would fight the Federation if it was pulling what it did on Naboo in TPM). The Jedi might have gotten involved, but it would merely have been one system versus another, not a gigantic galactic war.

 

There was no issues between the Naboo and the Federation until Sidious told Nute that they're blockading and then invading Naboo.

 

Yes, I maintain it would've happened at some point regardless of Sidious or Dooku. They did NOT orchestrate *everything*.

 

Uh, Lucas says otherwise.

"We do reveal that Dooku is Darth Tyranus, he's a Sith Lord, and that he's in league with Darth Sidious and Darth Sidious is pulling all the strings and everything is going just the way he wants them to go. The Emperor continues to pull the strings."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

Certain things weren't his doing, but a lot of his rise to power was through his manipulations and what he had Dooku do for him. Including the conflict between the Naboo and the Federation.

 

Nearly everything that occurs during the prequels (and the Clone Wars cartoon) is a result of Palpatine pulling the strings. He manipulates nearly everybody he comes into contact with into furthering his plans to destroy the Jedi and become Emperor.

 

If that's what you guys choose to believe that's fine. Not me.

 

Okay. What do you think that Palpatine did not manipulate about the PT/TCW?

 

It's not about choosing to believe or not. It's about the evidence. Palpatine manipulated just about every aspect of the Clone Wars, including when to give the Republic victories and when to give the Separatist victories. His plan was to prolong this sham war for as long as possible in order to discredit the Jedi in the eyes of the public, as well as whittling down their numbers via attrition. Since we know that Palpatine and Dooku were in league with each other, this is probably the most obvious of Palpatine's manipulations.

We also know that Palpatine is Sidious, and so it is obvious that Palpatine manipulated the Trade Federation into blockading Naboo. This act gave Palpatine the necessary sympathy votes in order to attain the position of Chancellor itself.


As for what Palpatine did not manipulate, he did not count on the queen escaping from Naboo, nor did he count on Anakin joining the group on Tatooine. But Palpatine is the master of the Plan B, so he quickly used the new developments to his advantage.

 

First, that is not what was said earler in this thread.
timmoishere said:

So the tax is 100% an army tax. The TF are taxed because they armed their ships.
This is what I find lacking in logic. The TF want help from the Senate about the Pirates. The Senate won't help but allow the TF to arm themselves. But then the Senate decide to tax the TF because they armed themselves.
The tradeoff here is odd. If the Senate had dealt with the Pirates then it makes sense that the TF should be taxed because they are getting a service from the Senate.
However here the TF pay for their own protection and on top of that, the Senate are taxing them for it.
That is why it makes more sense if the TF are the ones who are taxing the trade routes and Naboo. They are maintaining security in the outer regions and dealing with pirates and have to pay for that themselves. So then they are taxing the trade routes and the worlds along them.

Second, I would say the Republic HAVE a problem with security, the pirates.
The TF started to trade with the more remote planets but pirates kept attacking their ships.
The TF asked the Senate to do something but the Senate could not be bothered and basically said, "We don't feel like helping you but we will allow you to arm your ships and have droid soldiers onboard." And when the TF did exactly that the Senate said "Oh you have armed your ships? That means extra taxes for you!".
These pirates could also have attacked other transports from other republic worlds and yet the Senate don't lift a finger to help?

Thirdly, the Senate apparently allow loads of private armies, the TF and the other corporate armies we hear about in AotC. But at the same time the republic have no army on it's own. They have the Jedi sure but no army. Didn't that ever worry anybody? Was there no one that thought, "Hey, the TF have a massive army and heavilly armed ships and we have nothing. What if they decide to attack us?"

But much of this seem to rely on both sides being rather dumb.

The senate wants to promote trade and boost the economy of the outer systems. So they get rid of the tax on trade here. Makes sense. But then when that trade starts to happen the tax is brought back. Palpatine might be the one to propose it but the other people have to go along with it.
Did they just go "Yes this sounds like a good idea, never mind that we just got rid of this tax in order to promote trade but lets bring it back. I am sure that will not cause that trade to go away."
And the TF, instead of looking like thugs and blockading a planet, they could instead say "I you bring this new tax we will stop trade with the outer planets." Which was the whole reason why the tax was removed in the first place and now the senate look like idiots.

The senate allow all manner of private armies, all the while having no soldiers of their own.
And when they start to feel that the TF's army is getting a little too big, their solution is to piss the TF off by taxing them. Real smart.

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But again, can't the TF think? They had the moral highground when the senate went back on theor word and all they had to do was to stop trade with the outer systems and the senate would look foolish. Instead they act like bullys and what did they think was going to happen?
They conquer a whole planet and they think that will never come out? The TF did not want the invasion becoming public knowledge but something like that isn't something you can hide, it gets out.
Also, in TPM, Sidious says that he will keep things as they are in the senate, at a stand still.
But that is not what the TF want, they want action. They want the senate to vote away this new tax.
And a deadlocked senate isn't in their best interest.Unless they are the ones taxing Naboo and the senate is deadlocked in acting against the TF. Then it makes sense that the TF wants the senate to remian inactive.

Also, invading a world that won't shoot back isn't much of a test. The TF land troops, go to the capitol and invasion over. The Naboo didn't resist in any way it seems.
Also how "secured" were Naboo really? The TF let fueld and armed Naboo fighters just sit there in the hanger in the palace they had invaded. A very normal procedure in an invasion is neutralizing the enemy military forces and weapons. Letting armed fighters just sit there for anyone to take isn't very bright.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The Republic merely used the TF wanting to arm their ships as an excuse for reimplementing the taxes on Outer Rim shipping. Many senators were fed up with the Federation's abuse of their monopoly in the shipping industry, and so many were quite eager to see this tax bill put through in order to take the TF down a peg.