PT Were the Clone Wars inevitable without Palpatine?

But, if that was the case then why, as Samuel Vimes pointed out, would the TF want inaction in the Senate? If the blockade was about Republic taxation of the trade routes then they would surely want action in the Senate against that taxation. If their actions against Naboo are related to their taxation of the planet then it makes more sense that they would want inaction in order to get what they wanted from the new treaty with Naboo.

And...using the TF spending their own money dealing with a problem the Senate refuses to deal with (piracy) as an excuse to tax the trade routes (the protection of which costs the Senate nothing) would make for a pretty feeble argument in the Senate - especially as Lucas has said that one of the major problems with the Senate is that the TF are so powerful.

It makes more sense in every way it could be looked at that the taxation is by the TF on the outer rim planets, in order to pay for the military protection that the Senate has delegated to them.

 

That one I'll answer because of the fact that all of the corporate leaders, the ones who became part of the Confederacy were craven cowards. They didn't have the guts to do this on their own, which is what Qui-gon said to Obi-wan and Padme. The Federation's actions didn't make sense because they would never go that far, which meant something else was behind that. When Maul revealed himself and Anakin's existence brought everything into focus, which was that the Sith were back and manipulating the Federation into acting as they have. The Senate and the Jedi never worried about a betrayal like that due to Nute Gunray and Lott Dodd being milquetoasts.

Not dumb. Ignorant and arrogant. The ultimate mind trick which didn't require the Force.

That's because they don't think the Federation has the guts to do what it does. Enter the Sith. The wild cards in this scenario.

You don't argue with a Sith Lord who will slice you from stem to stern. They're more scared of him than of the Senate. The Senate will just arrest them and put them in prison. The Sith will leave them in pieces.

No, Sidious was saying that he'll keep the Senate from investigating Padme's accusations. If the Senate is organized, then it will go badly for them. Nute is aware that Padme made it to Coruscant and plead her case in the Senate. He's also aware that Lott Dodd and Aks Moe have stalled for time through the calling of a committee to investigate and that Padme called for a vote of no confidence in Valorum, thus resulting in a new election of a Chancellor. All of which is buying them time.

1. There's a reason why Count Dooku, General Grievous and Assaj Ventress were in charge.

2. None of them, including Palpatine himself, realized that Padme was going to lead a strike team into the palace. Course, there wasn't much worry since the shields on the control ship could fend off N-1 fighters.

 

Imho, that was a mistake on Lucas' part when he made the PT. Making Palpatine the 'mastermind' of everything. I don't think that was the case in the original OT-era back-story notes, not even when ROTJ was being made.

 

"Everything which has transpired has done so according to my design." Straight from the horse's mouth.

 

RoTJ novelization:
Palpatine musing:

Back in the days when he was merely Senator Palpatine, the galaxy had been a Republic of stars, cared for and protected by the Jedi Knighthood that had watched over it for centuries. But inevitably it had grown too large - too massive a bureaucracy had been required, over too many years, in order to maintain the Republic. Corruption had set in.

A few greedy senators had started the chain reaction of malaise, some said; but who could know? A few perverted bureaucrats, arrogant, self-serving - and suddenly a fever was in the stars. Governor turned on governor, values eroded, trusts were broken - fear had spread like an epidemic in those early years, rapidly and without cause, and no-one knew what was happening, or why.

And so Senator Palpatine had seized the moment. Through fraud, clever promises, and astute political maneuvering, he'd managed to get himself elected head of the Council. And then through subterfuge, bribery, and terror, he'd named himself Emperor.

 

The "everything" in that quote is referring to the two traps he's set up - the one for the Rebels (DS II) - and the one for Luke (his compassion for his father). I never thought "everything" meant everything that happened 20-50 years previous to ROTJ.

Yes, that says that he seized the moment. Nothing about him 'orchestrating' the 'phoney war' Clone Wars and their factions, nothing about the "dark side clouds everything", etc. (and certainly nothing about the Sith getting their 'revenge' on the Jedi).

 

I actually think that Palpatine's controlling everything, and the way that was portrayed, was the strongest point of the PT. It keeps me coming back to the movies to watch it again and again so I can get those chills down my spine when he declares "the FIRST GALACTIC EMPIYAH". You just gotta love to hate to love Palpy. Pure evil.

It also makes his death in ROTJ even more potent, imho. "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..." BWOOCCCCSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH

The most impactful explosion, imo, in the saga, was his death. I mean Alderaan might be able to contend, but that's about it.

 

The novelization for RoTJ is kind of irrelevant at this point, now isn't it?
What matters is what happened in the prequels, not what some book that was written way before the prequels came out.

Nothing what was written in that small part says anything about how things actually happened anyway. We can only go by what we have actually seen, and that is Palpatine using both sides in a way to get himself to power and get rid of the Jedi. He was actively in charge of both sides in the clone wars, so yes, the whole thing only existed because of him. Could a war have happened at some point in time without his influence, I don't really see how, but it's not entirely impossible. This very war though, was exclusively his work.

 

I was pointing out how I preferred the pre-PT conceptualization/scenario* of how the Empire came about in the old back-story notes (that were made during the production of the OT films).

I responded to the ROTJ novelization because Iron_lord brought it up.


*where Palpatine didn't 'orchestrate' everything during the back-story (not talking about his master-mind orchestrations circa ROTJ).

 

I think one of the little plots that so many people miss about Palpatine is the role reversal he shares with the Jedi across the 6 movies. In the PT everything goes according to his design and plan. His plans, in part, are built around the Jedi's arrogance and Palpatines victory is in part due to their arrogance. In ROTS Palpatine tells Yoda that his arrogance blinds him, which is true to a point. Even Yoda admits the Jedi are arrogant.

Now we go to the OT, and Palpatine is now the overly arrogant one. His victories in the PT have now lead him to believe he is always right, and can't be wrong. That his plans will never fail. He tells Luke that everything that has transpired has done so at my design, to which Luke responds that his over confidence is his weakness. Which Luke was right. Part of why Luke and the Rebellion won, was Palpatines arrogance in thinking that by allowing the plans to fall into the rebels hands he would be able to defeat them.

Just a little bit of role reversal I've enjoyed over the 6 movies.

 

I don't think Sids controlled everything and yes I think it would've happened anyway.

 

Would probably not have been called the Clone wars though, without Palpatine & Dooku hiring Jango.

 

I don't make that assumption.

 

wait what? You think Palpatine and Dooku being involved in hiring Jango is an assumption?

 

TPM clearly demonstrates that the Federation is run by a bunch of cowards who would never go to war on their own. Qui-gon, Padme and Panaka all confirm that. Nute and Rune even say that they should have never gotten involved with the Sith. Dooku and Palpatine are shown as the ones who start the war and Palpatine controls both sides.

 

Some war would have happened eventually. The Clone Wars? Doubt it. Droids might have been used or not. Clones might have been used or not. Maybe a double-sided clone fight would have happened. But the Clone wars from the PT? Doubt it.

 

The problem with clones is that they grow slowly, even if faster than normal humans. That's why Jango had to be hired 10 years before the expected war.

 

The only way a war would happen, is if someone ambitious like a Tarkin were the mastermind. Nute Gunray would **** his pants the minute ten starships appeared filled with Jedi Knights. He about did with only two of them.

 

I think so, Dooku was already losing faith in the Republic and the Jedi before Palpatine recruited him to the Sith, I think that even without Palpatine's interference he would've tried to create a "new Republic" sooner or later, only so long he would've been able to tolerate the corruption in the Senate!

 

The exact details of the tax dispute not being established in the film can be irritating, its unfortunate that Lucas regarded it as nothing more than a maguffin to get to the action.

As far as I can see, the film offers contradictory evidence. Early in the film Nute Gunray is signalled by the Queen and says " At last, we are getting results," which does seem to imply that she must have some influence over the taxation. As it is based on the EU reason for the taxation of trade routes, What result can Amidala give?

Certainly it doesn't seem likely that Naboo is refusing to pay taxes to the TF, makes no sense. If they don't pay then the TF can refuse to trade with them and Naboo is stuck. If they try to ship their goods themselves as pointed out they have no protection from pirates ( can you say, easy target?... And if the TF take up a bit of unofficially official piracy themselves, who can stop them? ) Seems a blockade is pointless.

Later we have Palpatine say that the problem started "Right here in the senate" So the Senate is taxing the trade routes, thats fine but what has Naboo got to do with it? Why blockade them. In fact why not just pass the price on to the outer rim planets and forget about the Blockade?

I'd also like to know how the blockade is perfectly legal? and how the Chancellor can have ambassadors force a settlement, since the TF are part of the Senate why not do it direct on Corusant ( unless the fear of the Jedi is justified and they really are there to act as enforcers).

 

As I have maintained throughout the conversation that even though I hold onto a contrasting view of the EU and a few members here, I still understand that my view could be wrong, and that Lucas always intended it to be what the EU has said. However, I just don't see anything in the movie that makes me believe that the EU is the truth. Let's see if I can use my pov on what you brought up.

Remember, that these explanations are from my pov that the Trade Federation are the ones that established the tax on the outlying systems through their bureaucratic power within the Senate, and those taxes are to be paid directly to the Trade Fed. This falls in line with the corruption of the Senate, the greed of the Trade Federation etc etc. Naboo refuses to pay, hence the blockade.

First the issue is of the results Gunray speaks of. Remember, the line of getting results is said before Amidala says anything. Gunray is unaware that Amidala knows of the Jedi sent to demand a settlement. So when she calls on them, and before she says anything Gunray assumes the blockade is working and assumes she is calling to tell him that they are willing to start paying the taxes that the Trade Federation demands be paid to use the Trade Routes. After all the blockade is suppose to have the same results as our real world Sanctions, starve them into submission. When Amidala informs them that she is calling them to let them know she is aware of the Jedi, Gunray plays stupid.

As I said the blockade is suppose to have the same effect as our real world Sanctions. The point of the blockade is to let nothing get past, nothing at all. If the Trade Federation doesn't have a blockade then there is a very good chance that Naboo will be able to continue to trade, even if piracy happens, it's not going to stop everything. Furthermore, it opens up the possibility of relief aid from other planetary systems. Systems that can better protect themselves from piracy. basically if you're the Trade Federation trying to starve Naboo into submission, you take no chances and make sure nothing gets in or out.

One of the bigger issues I have with the EU explanation of the blockade is that from the standpoint of the movie, the blockade is perfectly legal, it's the invasion that is the illegal part. If you go by the EU explanation, that the senate passed a law that states the Trade Federation has to pay taxes, then it is a legal and binding law. Hence any action to thwart that law by lets say blockading a planet, would make that action (the blockade) illegal. However we see that in the movie it is never brought up that the blockade is illegal. The Senate obviously knows about the blockade, the Chancellor knows. On top of that, how do you send ambassadors to reach a settlement as the Chancellor did, if the action that is being undertaken (the blockade) is illegal? There is nothing to settle, the Trade Federation is breaking the law. Furthermore how does blockading a single planet going to change the minds of the thousands of other planets that would have had to vote yes to taxing the trade federation? It doesn't make sense. That would be like blockading Seattle, with the hopes of changing the minds of every other city in the USA. Just not a realistic way for the Trade Fed to obtain their goal.

I feel the goal of the Trade Federation was to make an example of Naboo to any other outlying Planets that refused to pay the Taxes. It's easier to make an example of one planet to scare a handful of other planets, than to make an example of one planet to try to scare thousands and thousands of planets.

It only makes sense that the blockade was legal because the Trade Federation, with the power they hold over the Senate passed a law that said the outlying systems had to pay a tax, or toll to the Trade Federation for the use of the trade routes. Once Naboo refused to pay, well then it was well within the Trade Federations right to blockade the planet in an attempt to 1) make sure the law was upheld, 2) make sure that their rights under the law(collection of the taxes from Naboo) was upheld. This would make the blockade legal, as it was Naboo who was technically breaking the law. However, it would not make an invasion legal as that was a direct attack on the sovereignty of Naboo. That is why they (the Trade Fed) needed the treaty signed so badly, it was a treaty saying that Naboo agreed to be occupied by the Trade Federation, thus making the invasion legal. The issue of the treaty is only ever brought up after the invasion, not during the blockade.

In the movie when Amidala goes before the Senate, she never brings up anything about the blockade, only the invasion. If both the blockade and the invasion were illegal, certainly she would make sure to bring up both to show that the Trade Fed has gone way over the line, however, she never says anything about the blockade, again suggesting that there was no legal standing for her to bring it up, only the invasion. It again suggests that the Trade Fed were within their rights to blockade, because it was the Naboo who were actually breaking the law, albeit a corrupt law.

Furthermore at the Senate, Palpatine gives his speech in which he says this:



In his little speech, Palpatine clearly includes the taxation of Trade Routes as part of the Tragedy. He says the tragedy started with the taxation of trade routes. He doesn't say the conflict started with the taxation then led to the tragedy. To me, by including the taxation of trade routes as part of the tragedy that has befallen Naboo, it shows that it is Naboo that is being forced to pay unfair taxes. If the Trade Federation were the ones being overtaxed, then there would be no need for Palpatine to include it as part of the tragedy.

 

Palpatine is playing up the taxation of the routes is why this started. He's spinning it as a tragedy that needn't have happened in the first place, but for corruption of the Federation.