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PT Were the Clone Wars inevitable without Palpatine?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Big_Benn_Klingon, Jan 25, 2014.

  1. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Pretty much this.

    Palpatine was behind the TF in TPM and they would probably not have dared to act without him.
    Same thing with the seps in AotC.

    We are not given much info about the TF's problems with the republic and almost nothing about the seps problems.
    The TF were unhappy about some new tax. It didn't seem that they could not afford it but Palpatine managed to convince them that he could get rid of it for them if they did what he asked. So simple greed. But it also took quite a bit of prodding from Palpatine to get them to act and when the Jedi arrived, the TF were close to folding like a deck chair.

    What the seps demands were are never said but since they seem to be mostly greedy capitalists the motive seems to be the same, money. Some cut lines from the script indicate that their plan for their independent state is maximized profits for them, no taxes and the like. Probably they wanted to remove laws about minimum wage, make slavery legal and remove laws about dumping toxic waste.
    Those kinds of things.

    In short, remove Palpatine/the Sith and the Clone War as we know it won't happen.

    What could happen is that the senate would keep getting increasingly corrupt and the Jedi not caring about it. Eventually I could see minor systems, esp those on the frontier, wanting to leave. That they feel they pay their taxes but get none of the benefits. The big companies would just be happy with a totally corrupt senate. So the seps could instead be systems like Naboo.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
    only one kenobi and Iron_lord like this.
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Indeed. In fact, Qui-gon said on more than one occasion that the Trade Federation are essentially a bunch of wimps and they didn't have the testicular fortitude to do something like that. That someone else had to be behind them in order to go against their normal pattern of behavior. Remove Palpatine from the equation and everything would continue as is. There's a reason that Anakin exists and has a destiny. Palpatine is the root cause of it all.
     
  3. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Palpatine had the unique ability to "make things legal". The only other person who may have had the influence and connections to initiate something like this was Dooku, but without Palpatine he would likely not have had the motivation.
     
  4. CommanderDrenn

    CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2013
    I agree with you he would have had the means-he was an excellent speaker, and left the Order for his ideals, not lust for power. I also agree he wouldn't have had the motivation. He wanted to pursue his own ideals, not destroy the Jedi. A bit of a digressive thought, but I wonder how he went from idealist to Sith acolyte. He doesn't seem that evil of a Sith, but what we know of them suggests they are innately evil.

    On the original post: I think the galaxy was bound for a conflict, and Sidious' plot was a catalyst. The Republic was growing corrupt, had little to no presence in the outer rim, where slavery was prevalent among society. Many people saw these and were doubtlessly ready to destroy the Republic and install a new, less corrupt government. As shown on a handful of occasions in TCW and the EU, not all Separatists were "evil" people. Many merely disliked the Republic's current state.

    On a side note, I really dislike using the word "evil." It's too generalized for my tastes. Let's examine, what is, in my opinion, completely evil in Star Wars:

    Darth Sidious.

    Or was he? He's a villain, and he does awful things, but does that make him evil? He wanted power, and he was willing to do what it takes to get it. Evil, to me, is a nebulous and hard-to-define term, that should be used lightly in the case of truly awful things: sin, etc.

    So, back to the topic. In conclusion, I think it wasn't a question of if for a galactic conflict, but when.
     
  5. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 14, 2013
    In my humble opinion, something can be unrealistic and still be awesome. If I wanted realistic, I'd watch Trek, not Wars.
     
  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    And Palpatine does truly awful things.
     
  7. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    You don't think that causing the deaths of billions of people in the process of your pursuit for power is evil? Or that destroying a man's life by manipulating him into turning traitor against his wife, his mentor, and the Jedi is evil? Or that robbing the entire galaxy of its freedom is evil? If anyone is capable of doing such things and not care about what his actions will do to the people around him, then that person is truly evil which is exactly what Darth Sidious is.
     
  8. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2003
    With no formal training, Palpatine used the force to bludgeon his own parents to death; dude is the GFFA's definition of evil.
     
  9. Darth Maul Apprentice

    Darth Maul Apprentice Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2014
    Inevitable? I'd say no. Sure there would have been wars, maybe even some involving clones since that's what the Kamino's do (make clones). But those wars would probably be on a much smaller scale. I can't see a Galactic size war without someone pulling the strings.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  10. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost star 9

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    I could not see it happening if you look at everthing that happens before the PT and during the PT that involves the war is done by palps.
     
  11. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008


    Would the Clone Wars or something like it have happened without Palpatine's interference? I don't know. I think the possibility was there - even without Palpatine's scheming. I just don't know if a civil war would have erupted in the end. More importantly, if a civil war similar to the Clone Wars had erupted, I don't know how it would have ended.
     
  12. Ambervikings91

    Ambervikings91 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 1, 2012
    not at all, he is the one who orchestrated it, they may have been possible but certainly not something that was destined to happen
     
  13. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    I don't buy that only two men caused the whole mess. I think it wouldn't have mattered if Palps was there or not.
     
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  14. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Palpatine was the one who convinced the Trade Federation to become more aggressive, he was the one who told them to blockade Naboo, he was the one working with Dooku behind the scenes to create the conflict between the Separatists and the Republic, and he carefully orchestrated the war itself in order to prolong it as long as possible.

    So there's no way the Clone Wars would have occurred without Palpatine's meddling.
     
  15. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    You guys can believe what you choose. I don't buy it.
     
    Big_Benn_Klingon likes this.
  16. The Star Wars Archivist

    The Star Wars Archivist Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 22, 2013
    It was not inevitable. Palpatine orchestrated everything. From the clones to the Trade Federation to the Separatists and Count Dooku.
    It may not be all that realistic, but, it happened.
     
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The Trade Federation existed before him - but it was him that manipulated them. Some of the issues - greedy corporations, dissatisfaction with the Republic - may have existed without him - but he and Dooku were the ones that made the most of the issues and turned them into an outright schism.
     
    The_Phantom_Calamari likes this.
  18. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000

    ^^^This.

    I'm with those who say that the Clone Wars would never happened if PalpSidious and Dooku didn't have the power or authority to make it happen.
     
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  19. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008


    You're not going to get realism with Star Trek or Star Wars.

    Certain fans who either like the Prequel Trilogy or the Original Trilogy are guilty of this. Just because you dislike the Prequel Trilogy, does not give you the right to put down those who do.
     
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  20. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    It's not a matter of belief. The evidence is clear across both the movies and the EU.
     
  21. Darth Dominikkus

    Darth Dominikkus Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2013
    The galaxy and the entire republic was a chess board and Palpatine was the chess master. He played everyone and everything and used whatever he needed to in order for all that happened to happen, in his control of course. Palpatine was in control of it all. He was the fuse and the lighter to the "tinderbox".
     
  22. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    So everyone here keeps saying. I don't buy it and clearly you're not getting why. It wouldn't matter if it were Palps or Dooku or not. It is simply a plot device. And anyway, even as it's done, I still don't buy only two *men* brought down the Republic. I'd say it was the Force. Both the Jedi and Sith were basically demolished as well.
     
    Big_Benn_Klingon likes this.
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    The Force didn't bring down the Republic. It was the Sith. It could be anyone with the political savvy that formed the Confederacy, which is the point. TPM clearly demonstrates how ineffective the Federation was prior to Palpatine.

    OBI-WAN: "...how do you think the the trade viceroy will deal with the Chancellor's demands?"

    QUI-GON: "These Federation types are cowards. The negotiations will be short."


    OBI-WAN: "It's an invisible army."

    QUI-GON: "It's an odd play for the Trade Federation."


    AMIDALA: "The Federation would not dare go that far."


    QUI-GON: "The situation is not what it seems. There is something else behind all this, Your Highness. There is no logic in the Federation's move here."
     
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  24. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008
    So, are you guys basically saying there was nothing really wrong with the Republic or within the Republic? Are you saying that Palpatine created tensions between those who joined the Separatists and the Republic Senate? Or that no such tensions existed before Palpatine began his scheming?
     
  25. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Tensions did exist, yes, but Palpatine's meddling amplified them.