PT Were the Clone Wars inevitable without Palpatine?

The only reason this conflict was named "the Clone Wars" was due to the Republic's use of clones as troops. I'm not saying that the same war would have broken out without Palpatine's influence. But I won't say that the Clone Wars or a similar conflict would have never broken out without the Chancellor's influence. I think the potential for some kind of galactic was already in place So, I will say that it was possible that a conflict similar to the Clone Wars to break out without Palpatine's influence or manipulations.

 

There has to be a reason to believe that something is suspicious. The facts are thus...

1. Palpatine's two year term was coming to an end the year that Dooku resurfaced on Raxus Prime and started his talks.

2. Palpatine was asked by the Senate to stay longer in office, when this started. They kept him in office with each passing year.

3. Dooku and Palpatine have had no prior relationship to speak of.

4. The Jedi Council discount what Dooku said about Darth Sidious controlling the Senate, because they would know if that were the case. They think that Dooku was lying his ass off, trying to create tension.

5. The Council only suspects that Palpatine is corrupt in that he's taking unfair advantage of the Senate during the Clone Wars, not that he is a Sith Lord. Much less in league with one.

6. Mace can feel the dark side surrounding Palpatine, but that doesn't make him a Sith Lord. Just that he's doing a lot of bad things and it is getting worse.

The problem is that as Qui-gon said, the Federation is a bunch of cowards who don't have the guts to pull something like this off. Meaning they'd never even think of separating from the Republic, much less go to war, because that would mean the end of their business. There would be a massive shake up and the Federation would be broken down into nothing. Only a Sith Lord could generate that kind of defiance.

 

The Federation was not the only major organization that joined the Separatists. AOTC made that perfectly clear. And there were still plenty of systems who were not particularly thrilled with the Senate's rule of the Republic. What I'm saying that the potential for a civil war or some kind of conflict was there, regardless of Palpatine's machinations.

 

But the only reason the Separatists even existed was due to Dooku's charisma. Dooku, who was in league with Palpatine.

 

Well I wouldn't say NO reason. In AotC the Jedi find out about the Clone army and that is made for the Republic. The person that is said to have ordered it is a Jedi but said Jedi is dead and according to Obi-Wan, he died before the army was ordered. IF Obi-Wan is correct then it means the army was ordered under a false name. So who did it? This someone most have lots of money as the army would be very expensive. Since the Jedi files have been tampered with and Kamino removed, that implies a connection and only a Jedi could have done this. Dooku is a possible suspect here and his connection to Jango is also suspect.
Then we have the timing of all this. The army was ordered shortly after Palpatine came into office.
At that point there apparently was no seps threat. So why would someone want the republic to have an army? Unless they knew about the seps, but how could they know that? Unless this person was also behind the seps.

The Jedi have no solid evidence against Dooku or Palpatine but I would say they have reason to suspect foul play. If Dooku did indeed order the clone army, which is a possibility based on what the Jedi knows. Why did he do this if he also is behind the seps? Well if he wants a long civil war that is what he would do. If looking at what happened with Palpatine you have, the TF invade Naboo, Palpatine gets elected to a position of power. The seps threaten to attack, Palpatine gets almost unlimited power and a whole army that will obey his every command. That too is reason to at least consider that something is up.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Which only happened because the Sith Lords promised them a great reward for going against the Republic. Vader was that reward. They didn't just decide to up and start a revolution on their own. Dooku was their link to Palpatine. This is clear when Dooku says that the Death Star plans would be safe with his Master and then we see his boss, who is Darth Sidious, who started this whole affair ten years ago.

YODA: "Capture Dooku, we must. If escape he does, he will rally more systems to his cause."

OBI-WAN: "If we can capture him we can end this war right now."

Those systems joining him happens because he encourages them to join the Confederacy.

The Jedi determine that Sifo-Dyas did order the army, and when Palpatine was confronted

Spoiler

he said that it was Valorum who had been involved before his tenure as Chancellor. This is lie, but that's what he uses. And since Valorum is dead, he cannot deny what happened.

 

Was that in TCW Season 6? Interesting. Fits with books like The Essential Atlas and The Essential Guide to Warfare, at least.

Looks like Obi-Wan's "impression" was wrong - and Yoda & Mace didn't correct him because they themselves weren't certain, at the time - since they had not yet investigated Kamino to find the exact date of the order.

 

Yep, I read that on Wookieepedia.

 

The galaxy was already geared for a civil war regardless with systems joining the Separatists - but in effect leading their own systems out of the Republics eye. The galaxy was already divided. But as for the Clone Wars - it was Palpatine's instrumentation throughout. Without Sidious' apprentice leering Jedi away (Sifo Dyas) and secretly ordering the creation of the Clone Army whilst Tyranus hiring and using (the unneeded) Jango Fett as a template.

As many have said (in great detail) Palpatine/Sidious' hidden agenda was one of elimination and bring his power to the forefront of galactic rule. Without that plan of domination in it's many guises - nothing would have made it the great war other than one mess of bickering and smaller battles between systems.

 

Except neither the Republic nor the Seperatists had any armies prior to AOTC so there was no possibility for civil war. PalpSidious made sure that the Clone Wars will happen when he had Dooku order the separatists to assemble their droid armies while PalpSidious orders the creation of a clone army by pretending to be Sifo-Dyas.

 

I know this was LOE's position, but I don't think TCW confirmed it.

Spoiler

In fact, the episode had a character indicate that Dooku had wanted to become Sifo-Dyas in some sense, which is open to interpretation but has led some to conclude that Sifo didn't actually place the order and he was just impersonated from the start. However, the Kaminoans do not know Dooku as "Sifo-Dyas" but as "Tyranus".

Perhaps the situation was left intentionally ambiguous to make room for the EU scenario as was done with Grievous' backstory way back in Season 1.

 

Well the TF did have an army in TPM and it was called "Battle-hardened". That implies it had seen some action.
The cloners on Kamino had made other armies in the past, which suggests that at least some powers in the SW galaxy have armies.

But TPM shows the TF be very hesitant in taking action and they only go this far because Sidious tells them to. Without him, the TF wouldn't dare to go against the Jedi. Also the TF are served by the current situation in the senate. The senate is corrput, and some senators are presumably in the TF's pocket. So they can get their way in many issues. Those that would probably most displeased would be smaller worlds that feel that the senate isn't looking out for them and that it's in the pocket of "big companies." So if there were any seps, they would probably be made up of smaller worlds that are fed up with the corrupt and ineffective senate. Then, in an ironic twist, the republic could turn to the TF for armies if the seps want to leave.

So some conflict could possibly happen but not as big. The Jedi are an unknown in this scenario. Their ability to use the Force had gone down and if that was due to Sidious and his growing power, then if he did not exist, then the Jedi might be able to see more clearly. And thus they might be able to resolve these matters.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Except that nothing of this is in the films and in another thread you said that the answer is in the film.
So based only on the films, since Obi-Wan's statement is never questioned or proven wrong, I take it as being correct. So then the most logical scenario is;
Dooku hires Jango and either he or Palpatine pose as Sifo-Dyas and places the order for the clone army. Dooku then deletes the Kamino file before leaving the Jedi order.
The Jedi know enough to suspect Dooku as having a hand in the creation of the clone army.
Since the army is for the republic then someone in the republic is most likely involved.
The army was apparently ordered after Palpatine took office and he is now the one who commands an army of totally obidient soldiers, who will do anything he commands.
Enough for someone to at least suspect foul play.
But this is OT so better we leave it.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Action against smugglers and pirates. Not in conquering planets. Qui-gon, Padme and Panaka all agree that they have never done anything like this before and they're going too far this time. Not to mention that Dooku said that there will be a fine military force once all of the Confederacy leaders combine their resources together.

Private armies for local defense. Nothing for the Republic and judging from how it was outside the Republic, something that either hadn't been done in a long time or was outside of their jurisdiction.

Except they don't think that Dooku had anything to do with the Clone Army. That Jango was working independently. He was hired by Sifo-Dyas and then he was hired by Dooku, ten years apart. This is why the Jedi don't suspect that the Sith were behind it. Being an independent contractor means you don't take sides. You go where the money goes. If I were a mercenary for the US and Russian governments, that means I'm on neither side. I just go with whoever is paying me that month.

 

Unfortunately, as of TCW "season 6" they do think Dooku had something to do with the clone army.

 

Jango claims he's never heard of Sifo-Dyas though.

 

Yeah, and the Jedi had to wait till ROTS to find out that PalpSidious also had a hand in the clone army's creation.

 

I'm not saying that a civil war within the Republic would have manifested in the same manner as it actually did with the Clone Wars. I'm saying that due to the disatisfaction that many systems harbored against the Republic anyway, there was potential for some kind of separation/conflict to manifest, even without Palpatine's machinations. I'm saying that the possibility for some kind of civil war was always there, regardless.

I find it hard to believe that Sidious was responsible, in some way, in the Jedi's declining ability to use the Force. I believe they were solely responsible for their declining connection to the Force, due to their own complacency, arrogance, willingness to be dictated by the Senate, and other internal flaws. Palpatine merely took advantage of this. The only "dark side" that truly clouded the Jedi came from within.

 

The work of several Sith leading up to Palpatine did use the Dark Side of the Force to cloud the Jedi's sense of the Force.

 

I meant Tyrannus.

Dissatisfaction is not the same as actively going to war.

 

Interesting...

My first thought is that we aren't sure how much Palpatine in his Sidious persona influenced events prior to TPM. I'm sure it is covered somewhat in EU, but I am not an EU fan so... TPM is picked up where the Sith finally reveal themselves, and we find out in that Movie that it is because of Sidious' influence that the Trade Federation decided to blockade and invade Naboo. Without his influence the Trade Fed would have never thought of doing it, as we hear from Qui Gonn at the beginning of the movie. That is how I picture things going on before Sidious, the Republic would have just trudged along where the big financial powers (ie Trade Fed) would have just been happy scooping up all their revenues, and not really wanting to unbalance the Status Quo in fear of losing money. It was Sidious' influence that pushed those Financial/Economic Powerhouses to want to start pushing for more.

So in my mind, I think it was Sidious'/Palaptines' influence that caused it. However, just like 1930's Germany, the state of the Republic at that point was the perfect set-up for him to finally put his plan into full motion.

 

Actually it was Naboo that was not happy with the Tax. The Trade federation controlled the Trade Routes and it was the Trade Federation that taxed those routes. The Naboo refused to pay, so the Trade Federation blockaded the planet to not allow the Naboo to participate in Trade using the Trade Routes controlled by the Trade Federation. At least that's how I saw it...

 

Ohhh that's something I always love talking about. What did the Jedi know well specifically Yoda... One of the things that I always bring up is the look that Yoda gives Palpatine in the beginning of AOTC. Clearly Yoda notices something and but bites his tongue. That dirty look Yoda shoots Palpatine is just too on purpose.

 

I agree with you.... I always thought it was Dooku. Sidious got a hold of Dooku before he left the Order, turned him before he left. Dooku erases Kamino from the Archives, leaves the order, kills dyas, pretends to be Dyas, orders the army, under his Sith name Tyranus he recruits jango.
Furthermore when P. Hidalgo was doing all the Hyperspace stuff for Episode 3 he did a Q&A where he was asked if we would get an answer to who ordered the Clones, and he said we would and that the person who did it was already in AOTC. Unfortunately Lucas removed that back story from the final film, which left it open to the EU.

 

Nope. The Senate was calling for the taxation of free trade routes, which would cut into the Trade Federation's business model since they weren't being taxed for the use of trade routes. Naboo was invaded simply because it was Palpatine's homeworld, so that he could gain the sympathy vote in the Senate. The Federation, not knowing this, were under the impression that by taking control of Naboo, so that they could essentially blackmail the Republic into backing off and thus keep their profits.

I know, I have the quote. He couldn't come out and tell us who did it, because he wasn't allowed to. What the publishing division did was tell a story to explain why the Jedi didn't discover the truth sooner, since Lucas wasn't planning to go in-depth in discussing it.