PT Were the Clone Wars inevitable without Palpatine?

And again, that is an incorrect interpretation. The Republic was taxing the TF. The TF blockaded Naboo in order to demonstrate their displeasure with the Republic's new law.

 

Right, I know that, now. But it wasn't my initial understanding — at least not when I first saw the film. And there were other things, like battle tested army and worlds of the Trade Federation that kind of added to my reasoning, too. Still, I have to admit...it's a bit vague on who's taxing who, though.

 

Because it would have been addressed in TPM and AOTC, that there was dissatisfaction prior to the return of the Sith. As it stands, the Republic was still seen as an efficient government whose leader became mired in scandal, leading to his being impeached.

 

The explanation that it was the Republic taxing the Trade Federation sounds like an EU explanation. I don't follow the EU, and there are examples of other plot points from the movies that the EU has "expanded" on that weren't what was originally suppose to be the plot. I did find it in one of the Visual Guides (the explanation that others are giving) that it was the Republic taxing the Trade Fed but there is no source for this explanation. It just still doesn't feel right from what we saw in the movies.
Just from the story standpoint, it's easier and cleaner to have the TF doing the taxing. If the story is that the Rep is doing the taxing, You almost make the Trade Fed a sympathetic entity being taxed by the big corrupt government, instead of a greedy corp entity trying to take advantage of the little guy, a greedy corp that controls the Big Corrupt Gov on top of it.

Oh well, I will have to give ole George a call one of these days and ask him...

 

So . . . you're basing your answer on an assumption?

 

But again the thinking of the Senate eludes me here.
1) Why are they calling it a tax on Trade Routes when it really is an army tax?
If there are anyone other than the TF using these Trade Routes they would get taxed as well even if they don't have an army.
2) Why isn't the Senate dealing with these pirates themselves, isn't that their job? Or the Jedi's?
If these Pirates are such a big problem, then others would be affected as well, like regular travel.
3) If the Senate is worried that the TF would get too powerful then again, deal with these pirates themselves. It gets rid of the pirate problem and prevents the TF from getting too strong.
4) About the TF's weaons etc. Why have all the droids and tanks and what not? To deal with pirates, all they would need is blasters on their ships, that's it.
It would be like in our world that ships, worried about pirates of the coast of some countries ask to be allowed to arm themselves. They get an ok and so they put nukes on their ships. Wouldn't that be gross overkill and lead to questions?
5) If the Senate is worried that the TF might use it's huge army against them, taxing the TF wouldn't really help. It doesn't get rid of their army and on top of that, the TF are now pissed at the Senate and thus even more likely to use their army.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Think of it like this, if you're a company that's managed to avoid being taxed and now you're being taxed, you'd feel picked on as well. Especially if your business practices are shady. Lucas was clear in his script that the Federation was the villains in this and that translated into the film. Dialogue that was cut was the kind that gave away where the direction of the film was going. That's why the Federation was operating in secret and the Senate would quash their invasion. Why they're scared of the Jedi.

As to the EU, where do you think they got that information from? From Lucas's writing.

No, based on the fact that there was no problems until the Sith made them.

It wasn't. The existence of the army was a separate issue. The main issue was that the Republic needed the tax dollars that is generated from the trade routes. The Droid Army was just a mitigating factor in how powerful and potentially dangerous the Federation was.

Pretty much. That's part of the reason why smugglers exist. They get past the taxed routes illegally, until the time of the OT, where Imperial checkpoints start cropping up.

The Senate has become bogged down in procedure. Just like in the real world, where pirates travel up and down the coasts and are largely ignored until they do something illegal. The Jedi deal with what they're assigned to deal with. They're keepers of the peace, not the gestapo.

Potentially, but most likely they'd go after surefire bets like a Federation ship carrying large sums of credits and other currency.

You'd think that, but then, the Senate's rather ineffective. Procedure and all.

Right, that's the problem. But as we know, the Trade Federation has a seat in the Senate and has bought off a number of senators, to keep the Senate from doing a formal investigation. Or if there is one, a nice bribe makes that report go away.

That's two separate issues.

 

WTF?

The movie makes it clear that it is the Republic that is taxing the Trade Federation. Why the hell would the Trade Federation tax themselves?

It's not an EU explanation, it's "George's explanation. Don't be a dumbutt.

 

This sounds like an assumption to me.

 

Mace and Yoda discuss that the darkside of the Force has clouded their vision, and Mace suggests they might tell the Senate that their powers are diminished. The clincher is that Yoda replies that only the Sith would know that they are weakened.

 

But, it isn't really Padmé seems convinced that the Senate will act. The TF appear to believe that they will. On top of the fact that we have Palpatine/Sidious describe and show how he is behind everything that is going on we also have the expectation from almost every character that the Senate will act (the Jedi work to get Padmé to the Senate without any suggestion of doubt that it is the most useful course of action). Palpatine/Sidious also tells Padmé (who's expectation is action) that the Senate is no longer what it was.... Whatever else, the clear expectation of action demonstrates a high level of belief in the system. There is no sign of dissatisfaction.

If we are supposed to believe thetre is some level of wide dissatisfaction then the story we are shown does a poor job, imo.

 

You just proved my point exactly, if it was the Republic taxing the Trade Federation then you could and would sympathize with the Trade Federation. Most of us if we owned a company would want to retain and maximize our profits. So if the government is taxing the hell out of your company, wouldn't you try your hardest to retain your profits? I bet most of us would, and why would that make you evil or a bad guy? You can certainly question the way the Trade Federation goes about showing their displeasure with the way they are being treated, but it doesn't make them inherently evil as we are lead to believe . As I have said, having the Republic tax the Trade Federation doesn't make the Trade Federation sound so greedy and evil as if the Trade Federation was taxing the trade routes that the outlying systems were using, then blockading one of the planets that refuses to pay the taxes to the Trade Federation. Once again the trade fed was placing a fee to use their trade routes much the same way the banking clan would charge fees for using their banking services.

Changes are made to the Script whether it be additions, omissions, or outright rewrites for a reason. If we wanted to start hashing older versions of scripts, then I could easily say that the Story is completely wrong because we need to find someone named Starkiller, not this Skywalker character...

As to the EU, once again as I have stated earlier in this thread. I will not take EU as a justification just because it's EU. There are plenty of examples where what Lucas puts, or thinks doesn't mesh with what the EU has done. I will go over two great examples again:
1) Boba Fett, ask Lucas and he will tell you that in his mind Fett died in the Sarlacc. No more story. However, realizing that fans wanted more stories about Fett, he allowed Fett to come back to life in the EU. But again, Lucas considers him dead. That is per an article written for a feature on StarWars.com called Ask The Senate (I believe that's what it was).
2) Who Ordered the Clone Army. This was to be covered in ROTS. It was said by Pablo Hidalgo, that it would be covered, and he also stated we have already seen who ordered the clone army in AOTC. This person was obviously to be Dooku (maybe not so obvious to some). However, Lucas cut that from the film. This left it a free for all for EU, which then turned it into some crazy plot by Dyas so on and so forth. It was not "from Lucas's writing" as you have claimed EU gets their material from. Again, I will not just accept EU stories for the sake of them being EU. They don't always flow with what Lucas intended.

 

Really? That's all you have to add to the conversation are insults, and a completely wrong accounting of my points? I was going to actually re-post all my thoughts on the topic for your benefit, then thought I wouldn't know how to bring it down to your reading level.

 

The EU is a part of the same universe that the movies inhabit. There is no reason to dismiss it purely on the basis of being EU. Denying the EU's validity is pointless. It's all Star Wars. The movies are not special.

 

I can choose to ignore the EU all the same as you choose not too. It is my preference. I don't tell others that they should or shouldn't ignore or like/not like the EU. I leave it up to the individual. I just point out why I don't. I also point out some of the incorrect assumptions of what the EU is.

 

But you are blatantly ignoring evidence just because it doesn't fit with your vision of what Star Wars is. You are making absurd claims that the TF was taxing Naboo, and you have no evidence to back it up. Meanwhile, there is a ton of evidence which points to the fact that the Republic was taxing the TF. It is all very clear.

From Wookieepedia:

The Trade Federation protested the taxation of the Free Trade Zone by the Galactic Senate. As a daring example to other planets, Nute Gunray started a blockade to stop trade on Naboo. He was manipulated by Darth Sidious, who ordered him to invade Naboo.

 

Yes I am choosing to ignore it because as, I have pointed out before, EU does not always fit in with what Lucas implies. I have given actual examples of this. I have also stated previously in this thread, and I will also state again. I am open to the fact that I may be wrong in my thoughts on this topic that we are discussing. I realize that today Lucas could come out and confirm what you have been saying. Too which I would acknowledge it as the truth. However, I will not give EU the same respect just because it has the Star Wars logo on it! If you choose to, than that is purely up to you.

 

So there you go, you are wrong in your thoughts on this topic. The Republic was taxing the TF. The TF was upset by this, and so at the urging of Sidious, they blockaded Naboo. That is how it all happened.

 

That is your opinion, and I have mine. Forums are a place for discussion, and debates on differing opinions are a form of discussion. I have given my side of what I think is going on in the movie, and used evidence to support my ideas, instead of just saying well because the EU says so. I am not trying to change minds, just supporting my opinions in the spirit of discussion. I have also been open-minded enough to show that I could be wrong on the matter, since, in the movie it is not 100% proven either way. It was just how I see it. You can go back and look at my previous posts on this subject, I have not (at least I don't think I was) told someone that they are definitively wrong. I have also stated that I was open to anyone showing me evidence from lucas on this topic. Again, just because the EU says so isn't proof enough for me...

If it is for you, than good for you, and I wouldn't try to talk you out of it!

 

You have presented no evidence, only opinions. I have presented no opinions, only facts.

Lucas isn't the only resource one can turn to in regards to Star Wars. There is a wide world of resources available. Go look them up. And you cannot dismiss the entire EU just because some of it doesn't fit with your perception of Lucas' implications. And in this case, the EU fits 100% with the movie's implications. The movie says the Republic is taxing the trade routes:

Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.
Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.

"Supreme Chancellor, delegates of the Senate. A tragedy has occurred, which started right here with the taxation of trade routes that has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the Trade Federation."

If I understand you right, your only basis for your beliefs is that it would render the TF in a sympathetic light? Well, so what? The TF were ultimately the pawns of Sidious. Everything they did in the movies was at Sidious' behest. When they were no longer useful to him, he discarded them as if they were nothing. That's pretty damn sympathetic to me.

Perhaps you don't understand just what the Trade Federation was? They weren't a government, they were a corporation, basically the equivalent of Fed-Ex. They didn't have authority to impose taxes. The only reason they had representation in the Senate was because of the vastness of their company's reach; they literally had a monopoly on all Outer Rim shipping. And since the Outer Rim's trade routes were previously tax-free (in an effort to stimulate the economy in the galaxy's outer reaches), the Federation's wealth grew immensely. They were reluctant to give up any of this wealth when the Republic decided to abolish the Free Trade Zones. And that's when Sidious stepped in, to show them how best to voice their displeasure: blockade the homeworld of the Senator responsible for championing the taxation bill to Valorum in the first place.

 

Show me exactly where it says the Republic is taxing the trade federation! It simply states the taxation of trade routes in in dispute. The opening crawl neither proves nor rejects either one of our sides.


Why would Palpatine, who's planet was just invaded by The Trade Federation, include the taxation of trade routes as a Tragedy? He clearly says the tragedy starts with the taxation of trade routes. He doesn't say the tragedy started with the bloackade or invasion!
If the taxation was on the Trade Federation, then he would not have included it as part of the tragedy. Why would he care of the Trade Federation was taxed or not, in fact it wouldn't be a tragedy to him as more than likely Naboo voted to have the Trade Fed taxed, thus drawing their ire, (and the reason for Sidious to pick them for his plan). The only reason why he would include it as part of the tragedy is that the Naboo were the ones having to pay a tax that the Trade Federation was enforcing on the outlying planets to use their Trade Routes, that their Trade Franchise allowed them to monitor.

I can choose to ignore any EU I wish. As I have stated so many times now, it is my choice just as it is yours to accept it. Just because they slapped a Star Wars logo on it, doesn't mean I accept it. Or have to accept it simply because you do.

 

sigh....

Palpatine himself specifically said that the idea of taxing the trade routes began in the Senate. This is dialog straight from the movie.

And the opening crawl specifically says that the TF wants to resolve the matter of taxation of trade routes by blockading Naboo. If the TF is the one doing the taxing, blockading Naboo won't have any effect on the taxation of routes, because Naboo is only one planet. The other routes are unaffected by this. Blockading Naboo only makes sense if the TF is doing so to send a message to the Republic.

And again, the Republic is the only major government in the galaxy. It is the only entity that can enact taxation on the scale implied by the movie.

I also find it funny that you demand to see the exact spot in the movie where it says the Republic is taxing the TF, yet you cannot produce such evidence to support your own beliefs. Hypocrite.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lott_Dod
The taxation of trade routes

"We submit that the senate does not have the right or the authority to enact taxation of the outlying trade zones. This is nothing more than a ploy to break up our consortium."
"It was the Trade Federation who opened the hyperlanes to the outlying systems, who risked the lives of its space-faring captains to bring formerly primitive worlds into the Republic, and new resources into the Core."
"Now we learn that we are expected to defend ourselves against the mercenaries and pirates who masquerade as freedom fighters, merely to enrich themselves at our expense. We come before you asking for aid, and instead become the victim of an indirect attack."
―Senator Lott Dod, protesting the Senate's refusal to give aid[src]
Around 33 BBY, the Trade Federation began to suffer from terrorist attacks launched by the Nebula Front, an organization that was opposed to the Federation's control over the trade routes. The Front scored a victoryagainst the Federation above the lommite mining world of Dorvalla, where it succeeded in destroying thefreighter Revenue and stealing a shipment of valuable aurodium. The Federation, fearing that the attack would be the first of many, decided to petition the Senate for assistance, as its own defense forces were insufficient to deal with the threat. Supreme Chancellor Valorum, fully aware of both the situation and the Federation's questionable dominance of the supposedly-Free Trade Zones, brought the organization's request to the Senate during a session.[6] With other crises, such as the Yinchorri Uprising, in mind, Valorum stressed the need for diplomacy as opposed to militant expansionism, adding that conglomerates like the Federation were oppressing planets within the Free Trade Zones. Dod was quick to respond to the Chancellor's accusations, arguing that the Federation was suffering losses because the Republic refused to either establish a military force to protect the zones or allow the Federation to defend itself. Valorum attempted to dissuade Dod from continuing the argument; although the Neimoidian stopped, several other senators joined in Dod's protest.[8]
Senator Dod and the Trade Federation delegation in the Senate
Valorum did not want to give the Federation more power, however, so he proposed that worlds within the Free Trade Zones—currently represented by the Federation in the Senate—should leave the Federation and instead join the Republic as full members. This move, if implemented, was expected to cause the trade routes in the area to become subject to taxation, something that the Federation did not want to deal with. Dod, unhappy with Valorum's proposal, announced his offense at what he considered to be an indirect attack against the Trade Federation, arguing that the Senate lacked the authority to tax the trade zones and was attempting to break up the Federation. Dod also stated that should the Senate refuse to intercede with the Nebula Front on the Federation's behalf, the governing body should at least give the trade consortium the appropriate means so that it could defend itself. Several other senators joined in, inserting their opinions into the debate. Finally, Valorum, on the written advice of Senator Palpatine of Naboo, proposed that some of the revenue from the taxation be used as financial assistance for outlying worlds. When this did not satisfy everyone, Palpatine suggested that a trade summit be held on the Outer Rim world of Eriadu to continue the discussion and eventually finalize the issue.[6]
Dod attended the Eriadu summit alongside Trade Federation Viceroy Nute Gunray and the other members of the Trade Federation Directorate. After arriving on the world, Dod informed Gunray of Senator Palpatine's stance as a potential ally of theirs after the Viceroy inquired after the man's identity. The two Neimoidians were flanked by their security droids as they walked with the rest of the Directorate. Dod stood by silently as Gunray and the others engaged in conversation regarding Chancellor Valorum and the impending taxation legislation. Unbeknownst to Dod, Gunray had entered into an agreement with the Sith Lord Darth Sidious[6]—the secretSith persona of Senator Palpatine[8]—that would see the Neimoidians firmly in control of the Federation. To secure this result, Sidious had supplied Gunray with an additional battle droid, a commander that ultimately feigned a malfunction and assassinated the non-Neimoidian members of the Directorate. When the droid was added to the other security droids guarding the Neimoidians, Dod told Gunray that he thought they had only brought twelve droids, not thirteen, although he did not question the matter further. The Federation delegation entered into the summit chambers and took their seats, with Gunray making note of Dod's location.[6]
Before Valorum could begin his opening remarks, a Human page approached Gunray and informed him that aplasma leak had been detected in his shuttle's engines, a security matter that he needed to tend to immediately. Dod asked the Viceroy whether or not he should remain with the rest of the delegation, but Gunray told him to accompany him to handle any legalities that should arise. After they departed, blaster fireerupted within the chamber, prompting the remaining members of the Directorate to activate a force field that had been set up around their seats. Though successfully shielded from outside attacks, the Directorate members had trapped themselves inside, vulnerable to Sidious's thirteenth droid. When the time came, the commander and the twelve other droids unleashed a volley of blaster bolts that killed the remaining Directorate members as the other members of the summit helplessly watched in horror. When the two Neimoidians returned, security agents initially prevented them from entering the hall. After learning of the events, Dod and Gunray did not protest when technicians utilized field disruptors to deactivate the droids. Because of their diplomatic privileges, the pair left Eriadu without responding to any inquiries. The Republic launched an investigation into the incident, and when asked about the thirteenth droid, Dod said that both he and Gunray had been puzzled by its presence. The Republic also concluded that the reasons for the Neimoidians' absence from the massacre was legitimate, albeit somewhat mysterious, as whoever had contacted security about the plasma leak had disappeared by the time of Gunray's and Dod's arrival.[6]
Dod addresses the Senate during the Naboo crisis.
In the end, despite all his influence, Dod was unable to prevent the passing of a bill enacting the taxation of the outlying trade routes.[2] Senate Resolution BR-0371 became law, much to the Federation's chagrin.[12] The Trade Federation, however, was not ready to submit to the new law without a fight. Senator Dod, from his repulsorpod in the Senate Rotunda, was fully prepared to do what was necessary to further the conglomerate's goals, despite the setback.[4]
Invasion of Naboo

"Honorable representatives of the Republic, I come to you under the gravest of circumstances. The Naboo system has been invaded by the droid armies of the Trade…"
"I object! There is no proof! This is incredible. We recommend a commission be sent to Naboo to ascertain the truth."
―Queen Amidala and Senator Dod — Listen (file info)[src]
In 32 BBY, the Trade Federation blockaded and invaded Naboo as a means of protest against the taxation of trade routes. The move was not conceived by the Neimoidians, however. Rather, they were instructed to do so on the advice of the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, their mysterious benefactor.[4] On Coruscant, Sidious, in his alter ego of Palpatine, repeatedly tried to meet with Dod to discuss Naboo's situation, with no success.[8] Chancellor Valorum dispatched two Jedi—Master Qui-Gon Jinn and his Padawan, Obi-Wan Kenobi—as his ambassadors to the Federation, but before any negotiations could commence, Viceroy Gunray attempted to have them killed per Sidious's orders. The pair escaped to Naboo's surface and rescued the captive Queen Amidala and her entourage. The group fled Naboo and, after a detour to the planet Tatooine for repairs, they arrived on Coruscant, where the Queen brought news of the Federation's actions to the Senate.[4]
During the Senate session, Senator Palpatine revealed the Federation's invasion of Naboo to his senatorial colleagues but was cut off by Dod, who rushed his Senate platform to the center of the rotunda. The Neimoidian objected to Palpatine's insinuations and called for him to be silenced, but Valorum ignored him, ordering Dod and his delegation to retreat from the discussion. Palpatine continued and introduced the Queen to the governing body. As she began to divulge information of the Federation's invasion, Senator Dod again detached his platform from the wall of the chamber and rushed to cut off Amidala mid-sentence. Staying true to his filibustering ways, Dod objected to the Queen's accusations and suggested that a commission be formed and sent to Naboo to determine if Amidala's claims were valid. Valorum initially overruled him, but Dod pressed further, calling for an impartial observation in accordance with the rules for procedure.[13]
This time, the Gran Senator Aks Moe seconded the motion. Valorum consulted with his Vice Chair, theChagrian Mas Amedda, and concluded that a commission should be established in accordance with the rules that Dod had cited. Valorum asked Amidala to defer, but she was resolute and announced that she would not suspend her plea. Having seen the bureaucratic manipulation firsthand, Amidala took Palpatine's advice and called for a Vote of No Confidence in Valorum's leadership, hoping that a new Supreme Chancellor would be able to bring order to the Senate and resolve the Naboo crisis. Following a cascade of cheers of both support and disapproval, Dod maneuvered his Senate pod close to Naboo's and briefly exchanged a glance with Palpatine before Senator Edcel Bar Gane of Roona formally seconded Amidala's motion. Dod then suggested that the motion be sent, for further analysis, to the procedures committee.[13] Among the candidates proposed to succeed Valorum was Representative Ainlee Teem of Malastare,[4] whom Dod had previously supported as a potential candidate for the Chancellorship.[8] In the end, Amidala personally led the liberation of her homeworld and captured Viceroy Gunray, while Valorum was voted out of office and replaced by Palpatine.[13] Though Gunray ultimately faced four trials before the Republic Supreme Court, he still retained his title of viceroy, and the Federation itself only faced minor setbacks in the aftermath of the Naboo incident. By 22 BBY, Gunray had pledged the Federation's support to the growing Confederacy of Independent Systems, a collection of corporations and other organizations with grievances against the Republic government.[14]




Now, if you can show me any equally compelling evidence to support your claims, please do so.

 

I am the hypocrite? Please learn to read. Just today in one of my previous posts to you, I openly admitted that the movie does not 100% definitively prove either side of this debate. Name calling only pleases me, please keep it up! Furthermore, I stated show me exactly in relation to the opening crawl, which you had posted. I did not say show me in the exact spot in the movie. You sir are just putting words into my mouth now as well as falsely calling names. Please grow up.

Yes Palpatine does say it started there, but it doesn't prove or disprove that the Republic pushed for it, or the Trade Federation did... Thus again I ask, why would Palpatine consider it (the taxation of the Trade Federation) part of the Tragedy that has befallen his Planet?

If the Trade Federation is doing the taxing and the outlying systems refuse to pay, then picking a planet to make an example of is a way of resolving the situation. It is the same thinking if we approach it from your POV, if the trade fed is the one being taxed, then surely blockading one planet is not going to stop the republic from taxing all the other trade routes from other planets. The trade fed simply picks one to make an example of, and we know why they pick Naboo.

Once again, let me explain clearly for you. I am not saying you are right or wrong. I am simply saying that it has always been my thought process it was the Trade Federation doing the taxing, I leave the possibility open that I am wrong. Why you're getting so mad is beyond me...

 

Sigh... EU...

I stated already as well, that I admit EU has covered this. I just don't pay attention to it.

In July 2001, Lucas gave his opinion on the matter of what is canon in Star Wars during an interview with Cinescape magazine:
“
There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe.



I too don't get involved in the parallel universe...

 

I am getting frustrated because of your dishonesty and your refusal to accept genuine evidence when it is directly presented to you. Now please admit that you are wrong and let's resolve this. The Republic taxed the TF, and the TF blockaded Naboo in protest at Sidious' urging.

That Lucas quote is so overused, and it doesn't mean what you think it does. All it means is that he focuses on his movies, not the extra material. They are still a part of the same fictional universe. Subsequent quotes from LFL have confirmed this.

You say you don't follow the EU, yet the EU is the one place that gives a definitive answer. Willfully ignoring evidence is a clear sign of dishonesty.