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Were the Jedi of the Old Republic really Guardians of Peace and Justice?

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by DarthEmpron, Sep 7, 2012.


Should the Old Jedi Order be remembered as Guardians of Truth and Justice?

  1. Yes, without a doubt

  2. Yes, even though they made mistakes

  3. Does it matter?

    0 vote(s)
  4. No, but not purposely

  5. NOOO!!!!

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  1. DarthEmpron

    DarthEmpron Jedi Youngling

    Sep 7, 2012
    First, I'm new to this forum so I have no idea if this is even the right spot.

    Second, this is not a hate-topic against any jedi.

    I'm just baffled by some of the actions of the Jedi Order during the Old Republic era. For a group of people who were described by Old Obi-Wan as the Guardians of Truth and Justice, the jedi were involved in some shady actions and decisions.

    If a fan were to go off the Prequel Trilogy by itself, you could make an valid argument on why the Jedi were just as bad as the Sith.

    First off, Knights of the Old Republic. Exploration into it's backstory reveals that the mandalorians invaded Republic space, bombarded entire planets with billions of people on them and were dominating the Republic forces. When the Republic begged the jedi for help, the jedi refused.

    They refused to aid the republic that they were created to guard and guide even as said republic was being massacred by a race of war-hungry warriors whom had no intention of stopping or negotiating. They turned their backs on the republic when they were needed and asked for aid.

    What the hell kind of jedi were these? Sure, the Council will explain that they felt something that caused them to make their decision and were still cautious after the Exar Kun crisis. But how is aiding the besieged republic a path to the dark side? If the Council had decided to act instead of sit then Revan wouldn't have went on his own with a large group of followers and KOTOR never would've happened.

    Three thousand years later, we come to the end of the Sith Wars after the Battles of Ruusaan. The Ruusan Reforms occur which strip the jedi of all military offices and ranks which isn't too much of a problem seeing as that the sith are apparently gone. But what strikes me is that the Reformation not only places the jedi under the direct supervision of the Supreme Chancillor and Judicial Sectors, but also dictated that training should start from birth and the jedi largely had no problem with this.

    What the hell kind of jedi were these? By placing themselves under the direct authority of the Republic, the jedi had become trapped by it. Wouldn't being a guardian of peace and justice mean that the jedi would have to act outside of the republic? Now that they're officially tied to it, the jedi were now obstructed by political red-tape and pretty much came to accept the growing corruption of the republic.

    Then, there's the dictation to train jedi from infancy. I understand training an apprentice from youth since children are more open-minded and teachable then say full-grown adults. But forcing a family to give up an infant and then train the baby as soon as it comes to the temple? That sounds more like brain-washing and less like training. If someone is indoctrinated all their life to accept a way of living without any independent questioning or thought, which makes them less effective in that way of living. Especially in a position like a guardian of peace and justice who is to be intuned with an all-encompassing energy field.

    Plus, the life-time commitment required to be a jedi just seems cheapened when most of it's members never had a choice in the matter.

    Then we come to the Prequel Trilogy and problems build from Episode 2 onwards. I leave out Episode 1 because the questionable jedi actions there are explainable. The reason that jedi don't act to stop slavery on Tatooine is because Tatooine is not part of the Republic, they're guardians of truth and justice in the Republic. As bad as slavery is, the jedi don't want to overstep their bounds. Qui-Gon tried to free Anakin's mom, but didn't have enough money and was in a hurry to save a planet suffering from an oppressive occupation.

    But between Episode 1 and 2, the jedi didn't do anything about Anakin's mom. Why didn't they arrange for her freedom to be bought and therefore allow them to train Anakin in peace (the Chosen One whose future is filled with grave danger). Sure, they'd have to restrict Anakin's visitation with his mom if not outright forbid it, but Anakin wouldn't have been as bratty with more of a peace of mind about his mom.

    Then the Clone Wars occur and the jedi do two things that should be direct violations of their code. First, they agree to lead an army of illegally commissioned and unethically used clones to fight a war that they know has been arranged by a sith lord whose infiltrated the Republic. They also basically boot out any conscientious objectors and take away their lightsabers. Why?

    Next, they form an alliance with Jabba the Hutt. Let me say this again. They form an alliance with a known despotic gangster who runs slavery, bounty hunting, human trafficking, gambling and murder rings and the jedi, the guardians of truth and justice...form an alliance with him.

    WHAT KIND OF JEDI ARE THESE? Sure, you could argue that it was a lesser of two evils circumstance, since Hutt Space is apparently needed for the war effort and it's better to have Jabba on their side than with the Separists. But...then you have the Jedi knowingly compromising tenets of the Jedi Code:

    The Jedi are the guardians of civilization, yet do not allow civilization to destroy needlessly.

    So it's okay to lead a war against a group of star systems who want to make their own government due to the corruption and inaction inherent in the system of the Republic...and form an alliance with a criminal organization without doing anything against that organization's actions?

    Jedi respect each other, and all other life forms.

    Unless your a clone, a slave or a separist.

    Thoughts? Am I too harsh? Is there something that I've missed? And no this isn't because I hate morally grey situations. It's just that Jedi are paragons of the light side of the force and yet, we've seen various examples of the order making decisions that seem counter to what they're supposed to be.
    darth fluffy likes this.
  2. Mitth_Fisto

    Mitth_Fisto Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Sep 29, 2005
    A think you bring up some very good points. The older order from KOTOR era seems especially to be backward and bueracracy logged from the portrayels. I think largely these Jedi were at a cross-roads and felt the force saying something isn't right or what it appears here, and instead of checking it out they decided to sit on their haunches and await it to reveal itself. A sort of 'we don't know which road is right so we take the one with the least action to avoid wrong doing'.

    Then they stuck their foot in it again afterwards and didn't start to correct their stance until the Exile. Then they were too concerned with rebuilding then actually doing anything.

    Ruusan if I remember right came after the Thought Bomb had happened, the Jedi leadership and best fighters under General Hoth were gone. Although the Sith were reeling and the Jedi were as well I think this left those in charge of the situation those who were not ready or prepared for it. Basically the leading decisive voices were gone and the still developing Jedi that were stuck in the hot seat took the first peace deal they saw to get out of the seat they weren't prepared for. No matter what warts they had to agree to.

    Gotta go for now, but I'll comment more later ;)
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    In Tatooine Ghost, (according to Shmi's diary Leia finds and reads in the novel) Shmi receives a Tobal lens (exotic starship component) which she suspects to have come from the Jedi. She arranges for a suitor of hers- Cliegg- to get it- he buys and frees her.

    In The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Qui-Gon, in a conversation with Obi-Wan, reveals that it was him that arranged for her to get it:

    bolded lines are in movie- conversation continues in book:

    Obi Wan said, "The boy will not pass the Council's training. He's too old."
    Qui-Gon replied, "Anakin will become a Jedi, I promise you."
    "Do not defy the Council, Master ... not again."
    "I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan."
    "If you just follow the code, you would be on the Council. They will not go along with you this time."
    Qui Gon placed his hand on Obi-Wan's shoulder and said "You still have much to learn, my young apprentice."
    Obi-Wan gazed out across the surrounding skyscrapers. "What if the boy decides he wants to be with his mother?"
    "That would be Anakin's choice," Qui-Gon said. "However, I've already taken a step to help his mother. I've arranged for a courier to go to Tatooine and deliver a Tobal lens to Shmi Skywalker."
    "A Tobal lens?" Obi-Wan said. "You mean the crystal used to convert heat to light, the type used to power Renatta photon drives?"
    Qui-Gon nodded. "The Toyarian who owns Shmi won't accept Republic credits, and he would be suspicious, to say the least, if Shmi suddenly had any large amount of currency to buy her freedom. However, I believe that if Shmi acquired an item such as a Tobal lens, she would recognize its value as a bargaining chip."
    Obi-Wan shook his head. "You can be most baffling, Master."
    Qui-Gon shrugged. "As I said, you have much to learn."
  4. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jul 6, 2007
    My pro Mandalorian vote is in:p
    Bardan_Jusik likes this.
  5. imiller

    imiller Jedi Master star 3

    Apr 26, 2004
    While I like some individual Jedi before Luke, both pre and post Ruusaan, most of them are indeed very problematic for me. The lack of choice post-Ruusaan is a big sticking point, as is the insistence on no attachment, rather than developing healthy relationship patterns. Setting hormone-riddled teen Jedi up to fail, that is.

    Really, there's no sense that the Jedi have anyone akin to Luke. A few stick out - Nomi Sunrider and her daughter, Bastila Shan, perhaps Satele Shan, but on the whole, the Jedi are not the kind of heros I enjoy reading about. (Cue Knight Errant fans coming in to protest that Kerra Holt is all that...still not seeing it)
  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    The Jedi Path did have some moments that sound rather dubious:

    Should the urge to contact your birth families or form romantic attachments emerge, please consult your Master. To dwell in the dark will lead to suffering. Attachments will cause you to lose sight of your path and are cause for expulsion from the Jedi Order.

    And the response to the "misperception that the Jedi are kidnappers" raises more questions than it answers:

    An all too familiar accusation for Jedi Recruiters, this charge springs from the pain of emotional attachment. It is also technically false. Within the Republic, the Jedi Order has the legal authority to take custody of Force-sensitives, and some Masters have argued that the Force's presence in a child indicates that child's consent to join the Order even before he or she is able to speak.

    The Pius Dea era Jedi also don't come off well- with "The Trial of the Flesh" (one of the formal trials Padawans must go through to reach Knighthood)- being pretty extreme:

    During the Pius Dea era, the Jedi Order subjected Padawans to torments of cold, cuts, sonic shocks, and the application of sustained, low-powered blaster fire in the technique that smugglers call "the Burning". Now condemned as barbarism, this practice is best understood as a product of its time. It did, however, crystallize the Trial of the Flesh's most fundamental principle: divorcing the self from the spirit.

    That era also had the Jedi basically abandoning the Republic to its fanatical leaders for centuries- before finally being convinced to overthrow the Chancellor, by a Caamasi delegation.
    darth fluffy likes this.
  7. Bardan_Jusik

    Bardan_Jusik Mand'alor - Manager of EUC, SWC and Anthology/BtS star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Dec 14, 2009
    Seconded. :p

  8. Black Sun 4 Life

    Black Sun 4 Life Jedi Youngling

    Sep 8, 2012
    I completly forgot about this.
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