Discussion in 'EU Community' started by BultarSwan, Mar 4, 2013.
Of course there were Jedi stronger than Yoda.
Revan, for example.
On the whole "Palpatine let Mace win" idea, I think that notion has been put to bed quite resoundly. Not only does the ROTS novelization make it clear that Mace won, but if Palpatine had let Mace win it would've robbed the scene of its shattering Tragedy (with a capital "T"). I tried looking for Abel Pena's essay "The Tragedy of Mace Windu and the Destruction of the Jedi Order" last night but could not find it online. Anyway, it's the best bit of writing on this particular topic I've ever come across, so if you have some time maybe you could be more successful than me in finding it. I think for a clear and orthodox understanding of this confrontation Pena's writing is required reading.
During his era, Yoda was the strongest. Now, we don't have much information on Yoda's younger...centuries...but we know that at the time of ROTS, he was THE most powerful Jedi in the Order. Now, as far as Mace beating Sidious, Mace's lightsaber skills were pretty much second to none, but his actual Force abilities weren't on par with Yoda's. Not even close. He actually states something insinuating that in Shatterpoint, when dealing with a large vehicle, he states that Yoda would have merely lifted the vehicle and placed it to safety, but that he was unable to. I believe that every era had their "most powerful", and Yoda was his.
I think Anakin, Luke or the other Skywalkers have more potential.
I do believe Anakin got dismembered well before his prime, and that Luke did not get into his prime until after ROTJ.
I believe that Yoda is the most powerful Force user during the two trilogies.
Darth Sidious has some awesome powers as well, especially in the EU, but I believe his powers were mostly those of subtle manipulation, doubt, and fear. I do not believe his mastery of the force overall exceeded that of Yoda.
It's all speculation of course, but I believe Yoda to be the strongest, whereas Anakin and Luke had/have the potential to be stronger.
As far as the EU goes, there may be many Force users throughout history stronger than Yoda.
Revan, Starkiller, Exar Kun, and many others, all seem to have been very, very powerful. But it's impossible to do a decent comparison I suppose.
Luke Skywalker for sure. From there, as others have said, the rest of the Skywalker/Solo Clan probably had the potential, but i'm not sure how far down the line that would go. Jacen's the only other one in the family besides Luke to ever fully develop his potential, and he was killed while still in his 30s. With a few more decades i'd say he definitely would've passed Yoda. Same can be said for his brother, as well as his grandfather. Both were cut down before they could ever reach their prime, though Vader did manage to develop much of the potential that Anakin Skywalker didn't, however he was forever limited by what happened to him on Mustafar. Jaina and Leia are definite no's. Kol and Cade Skywalker are certainly powerful, but not up to Yoda's level. We may still see more from Cade to change that however.
Outside the family, i'd consider the names Mace Windu, Thon, Nomi Sunrider, and Satele Shan, to be worth consideration. Galen Marek probably deserves some type of mention as well, along with his clone Starkiller. Note i'm not saying any of them were stronger than Yoda, just that they have some impressive feats and can be looked at for consideration.
As far as visual prowess goes. Galen Marek/Starkiller should indeed rank very, very high.
Lifting an X-wing from a swamp? Big woop, Marek tosses flying tie-fighters around as if nothing.
He pulled a frikking Star Destroyer out of the sky.
The book makes that a bit more believable. IIRC, the Destroyer was already falling out of the sky and he just adjusted its impact location.
Still impressive, but not quite the same as pulling it down from space.
I don't know about anybody else, but I pretty much don't count Galen Marek or his clone as being legitimate. I loved the game, of course, but I'm just not comfortable with listing him alongside other characters in the EU, considering that going by the game, he would own EVERYONE.
That's why I go by the book (at least for Marek. Not sure on the clone). The book tends to make things more believable.
(I'm fairly certain Palpy throws the fight/was toying with him for instance)
Yeah, always use the books over the games. That's what I was doing, because even then he's still a pretty impressive Force User. Very powerful, just not to a ridiculous extent like in the games.
I am still waiting for a comic/novel in which a Force user makes two capital ships crash into each other with the Force...
Anakin did get dismembered way before his prime. Had Anakin reached his prime, he would've become the most powerful Jedi or Sith to ever live. The only Skywalker to actually reach Anakin's level of potential is his son, Luke. The other Skywalkers of the SW universe indeed have a lot of potential, but not nearly as much as Luke or Anakin. The only Skywalker who came close to his uncle and his grand-father was Jacen.
Yoda is the most powerful during the PT, not during the OT. Sure, he could still lift and X-Wing out of the swamp, but combatwise, he wasn't nearly as prepared or fit as he was in the PT. He was too old to be as good a fighter.
Actually... As of DE (Dark Empire), Sidious becomes significantly more powerful than Yoda. They were equals during the PT, but after the OT when Sidious is 'reborn' he becomes incredibly powerful. IMO, it's quite clear in DE that he has surpassed his younger self and thus, Yoda, as well.
As I have said before, I believe that in the RotS novelization Yoda is stated as "the most devastating foe the darkness had ever seen". Making him the most powerful Jedi up to the PT. I'll check it later to confirm it.
I would argue that if we can speculate that Anakin Skywalker would have without a doubt have become the most powerful except that he was cut off in his prime, the same speculation can be made of Anakin Solo. You make an argument for Jacen, and that is not without basis, but I tend to think of his brother Anakin as having shown significantly more potential in the manner of amazing feats than Jacen did, (at least until his premature death).
Additionally, in a separate case Luke Skywalker himself acknowledged that Kyp Durron had the potential (assumed biological but that is an assumption) to be more powerful than Luke and yet Kyp has never surpassed him. So despite Anakin Skywalker's power, it can also be speculated that he might have fallen to the same arrogance, or whatever defect* of mentality or training that prevented Kyp from surpassing the Grand Master.
*Defect is admittedly a strong word in this case. I was struggling to find an alternative.
Do you really think Sidious became so much more powerful after his "death" during the Battle of Endor?
Clearly, Sidious' strenght was manipulation. Turning the Republic into an Empire, exterminating the Jedi and dissolving the Senate were Sidious' greatest achievements.
What did he do during DE? Do not get me wrong, I love DE! I just think Palpatine was no longer the man he used to be.
I don't think there are any solid statements about Palpatine being more powerful, except those he made himself. If I remember correctly he stated in DE that he'd become more powerful in the Dark Side after coming so close to death and passing through it. Considering Darth Krayt did the same and himself learned new abilities and was more powerful I think there's some precedent for Palpatine's statement to be true. Though, he could also just be exaggerating.
The main reason people assume DE-Palpy is stronger is the fact he pulls off stuff we don't see in the movies. Force Storms for instance. Not to say he couldn't do that already, we just don't see it until DE.
Well, if he said he became stronger and then pulled off feats we didn't see in the movies... It is only logical to assume he's speaking the truth.
Besides, what he does in DE is freakin' amazing. If you don't remember clearly, you should re-read it.
That relies on believing that he was unable to pull of the feats he did in Dark Empire back during the movies. I shy away from that view specifically because they are the movies and therefore very limited in what they're able to show. We certainly didn't see Mace Windu tearing apart droid armies with his bare hands in the movies, but he was certainly capable of it, as he was doing that exact thing a few years prior to the final one.
Yoda and Sidious are stated as equals during the movies, at least. I really don't see Yoda pulling off the equivalent of the feats Palpatine achieves in DE... Because we really haven't seen anything that puts Yoda on that level, which means he indeed become more powerful in DE.
Granted, the Sith were not bound by the same rules as the Jedi. I'm fairly certain that there were many Jedi who could have pulled off feats like Force Storms, but they were forbidden to do so. I believe Yoda would have easily performed all the same feats that Palpatine was capable of.
In The Jedi Path- Force Storm is stated to have been "recently classified as a Dark Side power" due to its destructiveness. Implication- it was not considered Dark Side before that- and it was not something Palpatine invented due to him "attaining an unprecedented level of power" but was known, and used, before him.
We'd then have to say that most Darksiders are stronger than most Jedi because they have more destructive feats. That's the entire point of the Dark Side. The powers it grants are larger in scale and more destructive, while the Light Side's are more subtle, but no less powerful. We'll never see a Jedi use Force Storm, because it's a Dark Side technique.
Except maybe in "olden times" before the reclassification.
I could certainly see it being used by good guys in the Force Wars of the Dawn of the Jedi era, although maybe not in the lead up to the Darth Bane era.
You misunderstand. I am quite familiar with this. What I am saying is that we never see Yoda achieve some feat on the level of DE Palpatine, light side or dark side. It doesn't matter. We don't ever see it. Even though, as you put it, light side feats are more subtle, they exist and can be compared to dark side feats as the equivalent of these. For example, we do see Luke achieving crazy powerful feats after NJO, and he's light side. We can't assume Yoda's able to match OT/DE Palpatine's level of power becase we never see him doing anything even close to it.
Unless you believe Yoda can achieve light side feats equivalent to murdering fifty stormtroopers with lightning, desintegrating three powerful Prophets of the Dark Side who were knwoledgeable in Sith alchemy, which according to the Dark Side Sourcebook only considerably powerful Force-users are able to master, summoning hyperspace wormholes that could "tear the surfaces off worlds" and obliterating starships, then Palpatine did become more powerful after the Prequel Trilogy, where he was stated as Yoda's equal.
Palpatine eventually surpassed Yoda. His feats demonstrate this. He was Yoda's equal during the PT, and only during the PT. After it, there's nothing to suggest they were still equals, due to Yoda's lack of feats when compared to Palpatine after the events of the PT. We can't just assume Yoda remained his equal forever based on absolutely no evidence to support it.
And I perfectly understand that Yoda's feats don't match up to say a Force Storm. However, this is still based on the idea that Palpatine was unable to create Force Storms back during the PT, which really has no proof to back it up, save believing that because Yoda was stated to be Sidious equal in the PT he can't have been his equal in DE because of the Force Storm showing up there. However, if it's an ability that Sidious had in the PT/OT then the argument falls apart. The nature of the Light Side itself and the type of Jedi Yoda is won't ever allow for a feat that equals the level of destruction caused by the Force Storm. Luke does it sure, but he's also a special case, and a Jedi that's done more than his fair share of dabbling in the Dark Side and various aspects of the Force. Hardly the strict traditionalist that Yoda was.
When it comes to comparing the Dark Side to the Light Side, in general I have a hard time seeing the Light Side as superior, specifically because the Dark Side has the greater presence/effect on the physical world. However if there were a type of scale or comparison chart that was created, one that had X Light Side Ability/Feat equaling X Dark Side Ability/Feat, then yes I could very easily seeing Yoda be up there at the top.