PT Were there any non-Sith causes of the Clone Wars?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by darklordoftech, Jun 29, 2013.

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  1. Kenneth Morgan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    Sounds like the "Strong Federal Government vs. State's Rights" argument during the American Civil War.
  2. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
  3. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    CIS is never mentioned in the films. Well in the US that is the reality, corporations may not literally hold seats but they certainly control the Senators they "fund".
  4. Samuel Vimes Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    But that would qualify as corruption, which was my point. The senate in SW is corrupt and the source of this corruption seems to be largely due to the TF and other commercial entities. And as long as the senate remains corrupt, those commercial entities would be happy with the situation.
    Those that would object are those that feels their voice isn't being heard or even ignored. Smaller planets like Naboo and the like.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  5. Darkslayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2013
    star 6
    Invading Naboo got him made Chancellor, probably the most important part :)
  6. timmoishere Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Because they thought they could win?
  7. VanishingReality Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    The point of the Clone Wars is that they are a Sith trap. Even in the Old Repubic, Sith are pretty adept at whipping up armies out of absolutely nothing. I think TCW shows this pretty well when Darth Maul uses an army of completely random crime syndicates to attack Mandalore, it's clear he learned that from his master.
  8. Samuel Vimes Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    The plot demands it?

    Seriously, the motivation and goal of the seps in one of several things I think these films gloss over.
    I think it would have made better sense that the seps were instead smaller worlds, like Naboo, that felt the corrupt senate did not listen to them. That their concerns were ignored in favor of the needs of big commerce. Consider, Naboo was INVADED and they went to the senate for help. And what did the senate do? Nothing. Had I been a Naboo citizen, I would have questioned why we should remain a part of a republic that ignores it citizens to this degree.
    Take the European union and the crisis it is going through. Some countries are forced to make huge cuts in their budgets and many people loose their jobs and in those countries many of those regular people question the wisdom in remaining a part of the EU.

    Instead the seps, like the TF in the first film, are just Sith stooges. They do what they do because the Sith tells them to. No other reason.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  9. DRush76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    This would explain why Padme's sympathies shifted toward the Separatists, despite her distaste toward those who led them.
  10. Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2013
    star 1
    [IMG]

    The image above is of Dooku being hailed as liberator of a planet; an understanding of him that many do not realize.

    The answer to your question is Dooku; Dooku is the reason why the Separatists had an actual movement and why so many world followed. With his charisma and seemingly noble resolve to reform the Republic, Dooku molded what was just a coalition of greedy businesses (Trade Federation, IBC, etc) into an apparent legitimate secessionist movement that believed(in the eyes of the public) on trying to purge the corruption in the galaxy. It was Dooku's reformist and firebrand image that shifted the people's focus from seeing the Separatists as just greed united, to an actual alternative to the Republic. Dooku is what kept the movement together; it's him who swayed many worlds to join his cause and him who carried the face and resolve of the whole movement; most thought of the actual businesses as just suppliers and allies to Dooku rather than an actual leadership of the opposition. Dooku, as the Separatist's head of state, dealt with all the politics, public imagery, and propaganda that was required to have an actual confederation. Just look at how the charismatic and venerable Dooku makes his movement seem noble when he talks with Padme:

    [IMG]

    The character of Dooku has always been a severely unappreciated and overlooked one. Not many realize that without Dooku, Sidious could not have launched a successful civil war; only someone with the martial skill of Dooku(on par with Yoda, Sidious, and Mace) and the oratory flair and charisma that Dooku had, could have led so many systems seceding to his cause.

    Back to the original topic though, I believe that without Count Dooku, there would have been no war. Conflict of some sort between greedy private businesses and those loyal to the Republic, yes. But not a full-blown civil war. Without Dooku, the Separatist have nothing to offer for worlds to join them. Even with their huge armies and vast funds, there has to be an underlying sympathy base.

    Someone else mentioned the relationship between the Separatists vs. the Republic and the American Civil War. I have no doubt that George Lucas used the American Civil War to come up with ideas which makes the Star Wars prequels all the more richer.

    [Removed. Those comments do not contribute to this discussion, but you are more than welcome to add your opinion to that thread. ~Sx3]

    You brought up an analogy to Microsoft which I think also shows just how corrupt the Republic was: it's one thing for businesses to have influence due to backroom funding, but it's on a completely different level of corruption when businesses are blatantly given legal representation as seen with the Trade Federation in TPM.
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Oct 17, 2013
  11. Samuel Vimes Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    @ Komodo9Joe,

    Nice info but little to nothing of that is in the finished films. Which I think is a pity as I rather like Dooku and wished that the character was given more to do. He had potential but he came in rather late in AotC and was killed of too quickly in RotS.

    What we see of the seps in the film are people like the TF, whom we have already established as being corrupt and have no problem attacking whole planets to get what they want. The other seps hear about Nute desire to have Padme killed and don't object.
    They are building up a huge droid army, with which they plan to attack a defenseless republic and get what ever they want.
    To me, they come across as robber capitalist is some ways. Use military force against the weak and loot and plunder all they can.
    During Dooku's meeting, one of the seps says "What you are proposing could be seen as treason." But sadly there is no follow up to that. What their actual demands are we don't know.

    Lastly, let's say the republic hadn't attacked at Geonosis and Dooku would have made the first move and launched an attack against the republic, slaughtered the jedi and forced his demands on the Senate. Would smaller worlds look upon him like a hero, a good guy?
    He attacked a republic that has no soldiers, crushed the Jedi and now is enforcing his demands through military force.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  12. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    Stuff that is in the finished films- Jedi Council members like Mace saying "Dooku is an idealist - not a murderer"

    So we have reason to believe that "idealism" is at least the publically professed motive he has for being part of the Separatists.

    "Corruption in the Republic" we know of, from TPM.
  13. timmoishere Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6

    It doesn't need to be a part of the finished films. It's still a part of the canon, since nothing in the films contradicts it. If you like the Dooku character and want to learn more, you have to turn to the EU.
  14. Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2013
    star 1
    Sadly, it's true that much of Dooku and the Separatist's goals didn't make it into the final cut. However, the scenes were filmed and it originally wasn't just Dooku being brought up early in the movie by Padme and later appearing in the third act. In parts that were cut out of the movie, Jocasta Nu(the librarian) tells Obi-Wan a rough back story of Dooku: how he was a maverick and decided to leave the Jedi Order because he felt that the Senate that the Jedi served was corrupt. Then there was a great deleted scene which is based on that image I showed you of Dooku interrogating Padme above: where the two discuss politics and the state of the Republic and Dooku tries to convince Padme that the Republic is indeed beyond repair. Unfortunately, in the final movie, Dooku is hardly shown his significance and tragic tale of pursuing good ends through wrong means and being corrupted along the way; a sort of forerunner for Anakin which is what Lucas had originally intended.

    That gathering between the Separatists also had more dialogue before the final cut. Many more Separatists spoke lines of their commitment which can now unfortunately only be seen by looking at early scripts and unreleased photos. I'll post for you though what the crux of Dooku's argument was to get the Separatists to join:

    COUNT DOOKU
    Now is the time, my friends. This is the moment when you have to decide between the Republic or the Confederacy of Independent Systems.



    COUNT DOOKU is at the head of the table. JANGO FETT stands behind his chair.

    In addition to the original group, there are also THREE OPPOSITION SENATORS: PO NUDO, TESSEK and TOONBUCK TOORA, and a COMMERCE GUILD DIGNITARY, SHU MAI and a MEMBER of the INTERGALACTIC BANK CLAN, SAN HILL.

    COUNT DOOKU
    As I explained to you earlier, I'm quite convinced that ten thousand more solar systems will rally to our cause with your support, gentlemen. And let me remind you of our absolute commitment to capitalism...of the lower taxes, the reduce tariffs, and the eventual abolition of all trade barriers. Signing this treaty will bring you profits beyond your wildest imagination. What we are proposing is completely free trade (looks at Nute) Our friends in the Trade Federation have pledged their support. When their Battle Droids are combined with yours, we shall have an army greater than anything in the galaxy. The Jedi will be overwhelmed. The Republic will agree to any demands we make.


    PASSEL ARGENTE, the Corporate Alliance Representative.

    PASSEL ARGENTE
    I am authorized by the Corparate Alliance to sign the treaty.

    COUNT DOOKU
    We are most greatful for your cooperation, Chairman.



    SHU MAI, the Commerce Guild Representative.

    SHU MAI
    The Commerce Guilds do not at this time wish to become openly involved. But we shall support you in secret-and look forward to doing business with you.



    There are chuckles around the table. COUNT DOOKU smiles.

    COUNT DOOKU
    That is all we ask.



    SAN HILL, the banker.

    SAN HILL
    The Intergalactic Banking Clan will support you wholeheartedly, but only in a non-exclusive arrangment.



    WAT TAMBOR, the Techno Union representative.

    WAT TAMBOR
    The Techno Unions are at your disposal, Count.


    As you can see, Dooku convinced the Separatist's to join by mainly playing on their greed: promising them unlimited trade and the abolition of all taxes.

    Dooku is a very intelligent man and he knows what and what not to do. He wouldn't mar his image by barbarically attacking helpless worlds. Many unhappy worlds might willingly ask to join his secession and Dooku would be looked as a kindly, old firebrand who gave help to planets that wanted out of the Republic. Not to mention that he would be giving anti-Republic speeches about the corruption in the present Republic which do hold a lot of weight since there is a lot of truth in what he says. That's one of the especially sinister things about Sidious and Dooku: they know how to use certain truths to their advantage.

    Of course, the ultimate truth here is that war at the point of AOTC is inevitable. The Sith control both sides and have full power to engineer a conflict between the two.
  15. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Looks like the people of the galaxy pretty much has to choose between being governed by a corrupt government or being ruled by tyrants who control an army of killer robots.
  16. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    With that summation, it's no wonder someone like Owen Lars is of the opinion that "he should've stayed here and not gotten involved..."
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