FF:NSW Were there female Stormtroopers?

To settle a discussion a friend of mine was having, do you think there would have been female stormtroopers? If you have an opinion, try to quote examples to illustrate your theory.

 

It's when I see threads like this in the classic trilogy forum I wonder if we're all seeing the same films?

For starters, the Stormtroopers are all clones, and second, there is not one Stormtrooper in the films with breast plate armour.

 

Well, I don't know...the armour does have a bit of room to move

And there's always scope for the traditional "women dress up as men to enter the armed forces to find their boyfriend/husband/brother"

And yes, I do realise I'm just being silly

 

SM: without discussing anything remotely Ep3-related, GL has said things before that have ended up being complete bollocks. Aside from that one quote, I'm yet to see any evidence that says all stormtroopers in the OT are clones, so it's up to interpretation for the time being.

On topic, though - it's possible, if you're an EU follower. Daala made it through the Academy, though technically I don't think she was ever a grunt. There certainly weren't any in the movies, though.

 

Ok Hawk, you got me started.

What quote are you referring to? There was one not long after AotC came out, but there was also one in the 1980 ESB edition of Starlog magazine where Lucas specifically said the Stormtroopers were clones. So that idea has stuck around from nearly the beginning.

First off, on the AotC commentary track, Lucas refers to the clones as Stormtroopers, in fact, the only reason they are called Clonetroopers anywhere (and not in the film I may add) was to avoid confusion at the marketing end. Seeing as Hasbro are still, and shall be forever more, making toys of Stormtroopers.

I posted a poll in Ausgen a couple of years ago, asking ppl's opinons on whether the Stormies are clones. Stinrab posted a link in that thread to a statement by Lucas, hosted on TFN, that he did in fact say the Stormtroopers were clones, and the point of AotC was to set that up.

On that note, how much do you know about foreshadowing and storytelling? One of the final scenes in AotC shows the Stormtroopers boarding transports, with the Emperor (in all but name) looking on. I remember asking a few of my friends who have no idea of an EU existing what they thought that was, many of them responded by saying they felt the impression was now that the Stormtroopers are in fact clones.

I know unless Lucas turns up in a pop-up window during ep3 and points at the Clones, saying "These guys here? They're the Stormtroopers in the OT, get used to it fanboy." That it's still open to interpretation.

IF you read the EU.

If you don't, and you're not hanging on to what some authour wrote about the Imperial academy 10 years ago, then you can quite clearly see what direction that is heading in with the films.


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All of that said, let's put a real world spin on this.

Would the Empire put women in the front line? Would almost any army?

No they wouldn't, and I'm sorry ladies, but this is the one area that I shall rightfully remain a chauvinist over.

Women do not belong on the front line or in combat infantry roles in any conflict, or any military force. Ever.

Imagine the potential for abuse. A female soldier is taken prisoner by an opposing force, what do you think would happen? Actually, you can ask that question of a number of US female soldiers taken prisoner during both Gulf wars. You won't like the answer.

What about morale? You have a bunch of guys who are like brothers, they will die for each other, they will pull each other through and they will treat the other men like they were hatched out of the same eggs. Throw a woman into that mix, and you have jealousies, lack of trust if there's any involvement emotionally with the female soldiers, breakdowns of comraderie and in the end, all out fights. Yes ladies, we're that pathetic.

Also into the question becomes a level of decency, you take a platoon out in the bush, then you need to be comfortable when you stop for meals or rest, and the guy nearest you needs to jump back a few feet, whip his pants down and take a crap. Guys who work together in close quarters in the bush can handle this, but what if there were women present?

Which leads into another point, hygiene.

Women aren't designed like men, aside from the fact that every 4 weeks or there-abouts, they'd be totally unable to go on covert patrols (because of the smell factor after a day or two) they also have a higher centre of gravity, rendering the extra straps, buckles and all other sorts of things on military backpacks and combat webing designed to centre a man's gravity while marching, patrolling and running quite inoperable, and the military won't spring to make two totally different types of equipment to counterbalance this.

There's just a few points, I could come up with a lot more, but just think about this: Sure, there are women who all of the above just wouldn't matter, they could lift as much as the guys do, they could do all the same level of work, and they may just be able to slip past the whole sex issue and just be

 

I tried to read all of that post, really, I did try!

If GL said that all stormtroopers are clones, why didn't he dub them with Kiwi accents in the 2004 DVD edition of the SW trilogy?

While there might not have been female stormtroopers in the movies, some fanboys would sure like to see them anyway.

 

If GL said that all stormtroopers are clones, why didn't he dub them with Kiwi accents in the 2004 DVD edition of the SW trilogy?

I was waiting for that one!

Why would he? Are accents genetic? Things effect vocal cords also, things such as environment, yelling a lot (every seargent I ever knew had a raspy voice from lots of yelling.) and let's not forget they all wear helmets, it's possible that the helmet speakers are what makes the difference. As for the accent, I don't remember any cloning facilities in the films being based in New Zealand.

That's all in-universe stuff anyway, I suppose the simplest explanation is that the scene where Han & Luke walk into the detention area and speak would have had to have been re-done to show them being cuagyt out almost immediately. (Although, enough butchering the classics already George!)

There's a quite obvious Jango clone in the OT anyway, seen the Stormie that bumps his head in the doorway of the control room where 3PO and R2 are hiding? George says on the commentary tracks that he put Jango bumping his head in AotC to reflect the fact that one of his clones does it 20 years later.

If George put the head bump into AotC and then says it was because of his clone in the OT doing the same thing, then the Stormies in the OT are clones.

 

I don't remember where I read it, or even if it's an official position, but I tend to agree with the idea that some of the stormtroopers are clones, and others are not (I think this has been the EU position for a while, too, at least in games).

When Jango died, they lost him as a source for the clones. It's possible that Boba stepped up to the plate as a source (a kid needs pocket money, hey?), but otherwise the pure source of DNA for the clones died out with Jango. Clones that survived the clone wars became stormtroopers, and the rest of the ST ranks were filled with recruits from the Imperial Academy.

Were there any female Imperial officers? I don't recall any from memory. It's possible the Empire was sexist as well as racist. Who knows.

Of course, there is also Lucas' "I don't use evil chicks" motto. Is a female ST evil?

 

I agree with Oz's theory. I was reading one of the Clone Wars comics, umm Volume 1, the Battle for Kamino. And one of the ARC troopers knew that Jango had been 'comprimised', so his orders were to destroy the rest of the ARC clones, so they couldn't be used against the republic, they didnt end up having to because the Jedi saved the day.

I think because they would have only have a certain amount of generations cloned after Jango carked it, that it wouldn't provide an unlimited supply of stormies, so I agree that the imperial academy could have some input to stormtroopers, so while I believe they are clones, I also believe there maybe the odd no brainer, non clone. I mean, the only basic requirement of a stormtrooper is that your a bad shot right?

 

Well, I gotta go with Lucas' thoughts on it. Remember him? The guy that created the whole thing to begin with?

 

Yeah well, Lucas said a lot in the commentaries, and it wasn't all consistent with the films. I think he was a bit fast and loose with his comments. He should have had Steve Sansweet check them for continuity before they were added.

(That was a joke, btw).

So I take his comments on the dvds with a grain of salt. I've still not seen anything that definitively states that ALL stormtroopers are clones.

 

And nor is there anything in the movies that definitively states that they are not

But I'd argue your point about taking Lucas with a grain of salt, it's his universe, if he says they're clones, they are clones.

 

Until he decides to say otherwise in the Ep3 commentary.

(I kid, of course, but as Oz said, he doesn't stick to everything that he's said.)

 

Well, he's sticking to what he's been saying since TPM, and after the setup of AotC, there's no way he'd go back on Stormies being clones now.

But can someone please explain to me why they'd be taking the word of an EU authour over the guy who created Star Wars in the first place? That's what I don't understand about this.

 

Essentially - and I can see both sides of this, hence why I like to play devil's advocate - the EU was saying that stormtroopers were conscripts and recruits long before Lucas ever gave a definitive word on the issue. The EU fans go on for years, happily thinking that stormtroopers are your average Joe Solo, then Lucas comes along with his new movies and decides he doesn't like what has kept his franchise alive for twenty years. Understandably, told that so much of what they took as canon is completely wrong, the completist fans are a little resentful and aren't really willing to accept that Lucas would sweep away well over a decade of novels, comic books and video games because of an idea he could have modified in the movies to fit existing continuity, but chose not to. Yes, the stormtroopers are probably clones - but they could have just as easily not have been, had he not said as much.

 

Good points. However, I always took the EU games and books as not really a part of that universe, and it was the first story I read with a named Stormtrooper that had me thinking that way, seeing as I had a Lucas interview from 1980 saying he alwayd intended for the Stormies to be clones.

I can understand how this really puts out the noses tists, but this is far from the only contradiction in the EU with the saga (or within the EU itself). The question I ask, is that if Lucas contradicts something in the EU, does this lessen your enjoyment of the EU books when you read them? When I talk about Star Wars, it's from a film perspective. I take the EU with massive grains of salt, I don't think a lot of it is worthy of the name Star Wars, much of it could have the crerw of the USS Enterprise transplanted in instead of the heroes we know, and there'd be very little to re-write.

But in the end, are the Stormies clones or recruits?

The answer is niether, they're extras in plastic armour, and it is all fiction.

But it's Lucas' fiction, I don't care what Barbara Hambley has to say about it.

 

Just off topic a bit - does that mean you approve of Ewoks and Gungans?

 

I've begun thinking of two types of EU recently - that which was written before the PT, and that which was written during it. Anything written before the PT should, as you said, be taken with an extremely large grain of salt, as it had minimal input from George Lucas and was basically allowed to go almost anywhere it wanted. The new stuff, especially the Clone Wars material, is much more structured and is designed to complement the movies, which is the way I think the EU should have been from the start. I'm much more willing to trust that than the early stuff.

Also, bringing out Hambley was a low blow, even the hardcore EU fans regret that.

 

I agree Hawk, and I've been reading some of the comics set during the clone wars, and I like them.
I also see what you mean with the older EU and the newer. Instead of trying to retro fit it all in, they should just admit that it was writtemn before the new films and be done with it.



Just off topic a bit - does that mean you approve of Ewoks and Gungans?

My aproval or dissaproval is irrelevant, seeing as they are in the films, just like Midichlorians, Greedo shooting first (even if now it's just by the narrowest of margins) and lines like "yippee!".

But to answer your questions, the Ewoks never bothered me when I was 12, and they don't now. They're harsh, ferocious little mongrels,and the idea they could take out Stormtroopers on Endor really isn't that far fetched, seeing as they're naturally camouflaged, and the Stormies are big white targets.

Also what people seem to forget with the Ewoks when they call them teddy bears and harmless, is that they were going to eat Han and concievably the rest of them.

As for Gungans, we really don't see enough of them to judge. Judging the whole race by that one idiot Binks would be like aliens judging all of us by George W. Bush. Hardly fair.

 

Now, I'd like to think of the stormtroopers as clones, but I'd probably go with what was said above. There seem to be two theories; one that they are not clones, and gradually became recruits (enter Davin Felth), and the second is that they are clones. It's pretty hard to judge, either way, but it does depend on whether you follow EU or not...
I've always though of the stormtroopers (at least in the trilogy and beyond...) as recruits and enlistees. But the idea of them as clones is pretty cool, though, and I would have liked for the EU not to contradict that.
However, had GL decided to make the movies all originally, maybe there would not be such large flaws...
But then again...maybe there would be no clones, either...

 

And what of TIE pilots? In RotS, I believe there will be clone pilots in starfighters, so what of these TIE pilots? The very concept of TIE pilots being clones belies the fact that Han Solo was training to be in the Imperial Academy as a pilot...same as Biggs Darklighter. And also along with EU folk, such as Hobbie Klivian, and Tycho Celchu.
So, maybe if TIE pilots are not clones, then stromtroopers could also be recruits - at least in the OT.

 

I was waiting for someone to mention Davin Felth. I don't know I guess this has turned into a clones vs enlistees thread rather than whether there were women or not. I think that the comments about women being in the army is not very open minded. I mean, look at Starship Troopers (the movie). Men and women hapily fighting alongside each other.

I believe that women should be allowed to be in the front line of combat. I've seen a lot of women who I would not like to see shooting at me (take the Aussie Olympic shooter that got a medal in Athens) and a lot of women that would put most men to shame in the toughness area. There are also ways of deploying troops based on a roster system where people can fall back to a command position after a few weeks if need be. Another example would be the game skirmish. There are tons of women who play that game even though you would think it was only a men's arena.

I think as time goes on and our society changes (take for example unisex toilets) the whole issue of people being discriminated because of sex will become a thing of the past.

If the stormtroopers are conscripts, there doesn't seem to be any reason why they couldn't allow women. Especially on a Starship or on the Death Star. There are heaps of stormtroopers there and no need to be away from their post for weeks on end to bring the sanitary argument into play. Also, not all women are buxom and even some guys have large chests, the trooper armour would be able to accomodate.

I haven't made my mind up yet, but I would think that if Darth Vader thought that Leia would be just as big a threat as Luke he wouldn't descriminate based on sex. I mean he didn't say "Wait, there is another.... nah, it's a girl...." did he?

 

Okay, as a serious contribution to this whole conversation (*gasp!*) I'm going to throw my lot in with the EU arguement...

Okay, if we look at Daala, she was 'recruited' (I put that in mark because I'm a little shady as to how exactly she got into Carida) but was never promoted becasue of the Empire's policies against non-humans and women. She created a false identity for the wargames part of her training, an identity that was male, and that's what got her noticed by Tarkin. Good old Tarks decided that such a brain couldn't be lost to the Empire because of her sex, so he shunted her off to the Maw Installation because 1) he didn't want to lose her, but didn't want to be seen going against policy and 2) she was an ex-girlfriend he probably didn't want hanging around

So Daala, was an anamoly within the Imp system, I think there's even a part of the books that talk about how female recruits never got past Ensign or something similar and idiot boys were promoted above them. The empire didn't like girls in power, that was obvious. I mean, Iceheart had to kill her daddy in order to take over his job...not promotion...and the Emperor was dead by that time...and she was Palpy's girlfriend to boot, supposedly! There's obviously scope for sleeping you way to the top afterall

Although that is EU, so maybe, just maybe the Flannelled One doesn't agree with this idea.

And Deet's has a point about the TIE pilots...even Farmboy Luke wants to go to the Academy So possibly we're looking at a first wave of clones, followed by eager young men willing to fight for their Empire?

And I've probably just repeated the same arguements that have already been debunked, but you made me think so I had to get it all out somehow

Edit: Uh, short answer fro the TL,DR crew... There were no female Stormies, they would suck (as for the reasons mentioned in Magi's post - I agree, I can go along with the "one of the boys" only so far. And they don't supply funnels ) but they were, according to EU, trained in the Navy, along with other recruits.

 

I'm surprised that after AOTC that anyone is still discussing this?

There are numerous quotes from several people (not least GL) which say Clonetroopers are Stormtroopers, they are all clones - verbatim!

For example, remember Leia's comment in ANH?

"Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?"

Sounds like all Stormtroopers are the same hieght.

Besides who would get conscripts when it's easier just to clone them?

I won't give you any spoilers about ROTS but something will happen which will prove just how obedient Clonetroopers are (as per Taun We's comments in AOTC).

 

"Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?"

Sounds like all Stormtroopers are the same hieght.


Or just that there aren't any short stormtroopers. It doesn't make them clones. Otherwise basketball players would be clones, too.