What are the Jedi? Warriors? Peacekeepers?....the philosophical debate.

Discussion in 'Literature' started by I-poodoo, Aug 24, 2001.

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  1. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
    star 4
    Alot of the conflict here in this forum over the jedi in the NJO is based upon differences in interpretation of who they are, and what they should do.


    It is my assertion that the Jedi are not just glorified super-powered independent military special forces, but an order of monks devoted to the perserverence of peace, and ethics throughout the galaxy, and at their most aggressiveness become peacekeepers not warriors.

    yet as the Yuzhan Vong invasion progressed it has become abundantly clear to almost everyone that the Jedi should indeed act, but what action is justified is very hotly debated here.

    What are the Jedi? are they Warriors gifted with incredible power to defend the helpless.

    Or are the Jedi more than that? Are they monks devoted to find oneness with the force while promoting peace, justice, and ethics throughout the galaxy by acting as glorified policemen rather than as soldiers?
  2. Dodonna Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2001
    I think the jedi are made to be those monks, promoting peace, justice and ethics, defending the helpless, while searching for oneness with the force in themselves. However, in NJO with the vong threat the only way to promote peace is to stop the Vong. The jedi need to act to stop the vong from harming anymore of the helpless they're trying to protect.
  3. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Good topic here, and I hope it gets a great deal of attention.

    So, what exactly do I think the Jedi are?

    Hmmm. Not an easy question to answer. Philosopher or warrior... To this question I would certainly have to answer in the negative, to both of the options. What I want to know is, why does a Jedi have to fit one particular mold? Why can't he be a combination? In fact, isn't the best Jedi Knight one who is ready for all eventualities? If a Jedi was to be all warrior, then Kyp would be the ultimate Jedi. I think, no matter how avid of a Kyp supporter one might be, that it is easy to see that Kyp isn't perfect. He himself admits it. It's also just as easy to see that Jacen Solo is faaaaar from perfect, and also at the other end of the spectrum from Kyp. So you have the Jedi Warrior and the Jedi Monk, and neither of them are what a Jedi should be. In the middle you have Anakin, Corran, Jaina, Luke, Mara...all leaning a bit more one way than the other, but all closer to the truth than either Kyp or Jacen.

    But what a Jedi is at heart is a defender. A peacekeeper. Look at the opening crawl of the Phantom Menace. It talks about the "Jedi Knights, defenders of peace and justice in the Galaxy." Look at the very name. A Jedi Knight. Not a Jedi Monk, and not a Jedi Warrior. Historically, a knight, while best known for their prowess in combat, were also among the most learned men of their particular times. Why can't this be true of a Jedi Knight? I think that describes what a Jedi should be fairly well actually. A being trained in combat, with a lightsaber as his weapon and the Force as his ally, who seeks every ample solution to a problem before resorting to violence. BUT, they don't shy from violence when it is an absolute necessity, and there is no other alternative. To say that Jacen has it right because he's "more than a warrior" is wrong. He has it far from right, because so many innocents have died thanks to his indecision. To say that Kyp has it right because he's a Jedi Warrior, which is accoridng to some "What the current situation demands" is wrong as well. Kyp is far to aggressive, in my opinion. What those two need to find is the happy medium in between.

    So I guess my answer to the question would be this:

    Neither. A Jedi is neither a warrior or a monk, but a Knight. A defender.

    JMA
  4. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    I-poodoo, I think I'll be drained after you finish with coming up with all these interesting topics of debate! Stop! :)

    The questions you ask in this topic are exactly the sort of questions Jacen keeps asking and is constantly bashed for (it's amazing how any debate can stem from Jacen, huh). I'm sure you'll get alot of, "stop sitting around and act," "take on some moral responsibility and act", etc.

    I will be the first to admit that I am in no position to answer your questions. I'm not sure I'll ever be. Some may accuse my thinking exactly for the kind of inaction and cowardice that is a commonplace now.

    I will say this: I feel Anakin best exemplies the notion of a jedi up to now in the NJO. And mind you that Jacen is my favorite character. I have always thought that Jacen's idealogies, though very noble, are a bit too idealistic.

    Dodonna: "The jedi need to act to stop the vong from harming anymore of the helpless they're trying to protect."

    How do you suggest doing that? The jedi by themselves number less than a hundred. They by themselves can do their best to help those few that are need and those that they come in contact with, and they have been in fact trying to do that this whole series. Still, you assume that jedi by themselves can be THE answer to all the YV if they all started "acting." That, my friend, is a suicide mission. Just like Wurth Skidder trying to understand the yammosk all by himself and trying to change everything by himself.

    I do not doubt that before the series is over, the jedi will be united with the NR and possibly even the IR to defeat the YV. Still I do not think any action would be constructive in seriously thwarting the YV threat until there is some sense of unification.
  5. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "How do you suggest doing that? The jedi by themselves number less than a hundred."

    But what are numbers to a Jedi, Vergere? Are you saying that simply because the Jedi are so few that they shouldn't make an attempt to stop the Vong? Because lets face it, so far the Jedi are the only ones in the galaxy that have proven to be any kind of competition for YV warriors in hand to hand combat. The Jedi MUST take a hand in the fighting, otherwise the GFFA is in some serious trouble. Also, I need to reread some of the stuff at the beginning of the NJO again, but I thought the Jedi were up around a couple hundred. Not that that makes all THAT much of a difference, but twice as many as before is always a start. ;)

    JMA
  6. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    JMA: "But what are numbers to a Jedi, Vergere? Are you saying that simply because the Jedi are so few that they shouldn't make an attempt to stop the Vong?"

    Jedi aren't supposed to be stupid either, JMA! I mean if you want to delve into a suicide mission to save hundreds thats very noble and I would probably support it, but that will not deter the YV from killing hundreds of others. When a major opportunity arises to seriously thwart the YV threat, you wouldnt do much good to it if you were dead.

    Look, I'm not saying the Jedi should just sit back until some supposed opportunity arises - I also agree the jedi MUST fight and take a hand in the fighting. I'm just saying not to be stupid about it. Save as many lives as possible and survive, so you can actually help seriously defeat YV later. I actually believe the jedi have been doing this to the best of their ability so far. The notion of "acting" to me implies some sense of doing something just for the sake of doing something. Which are not the right reasons to take up arms.
  7. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "Jedi aren't supposed to be stupid either, JMA!"

    I understand that, and respect it, Vergere. I'm not saying I want all 200 Jedi or whatever to go running onto a Vong occupied world, lightsabers raised, and be annihilated in a blaze of glory when the Vong use a dovin basal to bring a moon down on that planet. THAT is acting for the sake of acting. But I refuse to believe that all a Jedi can, and should, be in a time like this is a ferryman on Luke's "great river". Look at what Anakin is doing. The intelligence he's gathered on the YV is invaluable to the Jedi, and I'm wondering when it's going to be used. His knowledge of the shamed ones, of the link that lambents can provide....and he's not just acting as a wetnurse, or ferryman, or whatever. There's alot to be said for waiting until the right moment for a massive strike. I think that that is indeed the correct course of action, for the Jedi to take a hand in the war as one unit. To do so NOW would be suicide. But this doesn't mean that they have to be completely inactive in a combative sense until that time arrives. I personally feel that their intelligence gathering capabilities are being shockingly wasted by the NR, and a large part of the blame for that falls on Luke. That's one example of actually doing something, something helpful, and not just done for the sake of feeling like you're keeping busy. Leading refugees to other, increasingly crowded, planets while the NR loses more and more ground, isn't the most productive thing they can be doing.

    JMA
  8. _JM_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 4
    Hmm....this is incoherent so apologies.
    -----------------------------

    To keep the peace you sometimes need to have the ability to enforce the peace so to be a peacekeeper would sometimes require you to be a warrior.

    In an ideal galaxy or world people would recognise the Jedis special wisdom and accept it, but if they do not then a Jedi who cannot act to defend the innocent would be rendered useless by the slightest opposition.

    I don't think that anyone thinks the Jedi are super-special forces but I don't think anybody will deny that their powers would allow them in many cases to act in this capability.

    Justifiable actions are ones which lead to a reduction in the level of suffering (or potential suffering) in the Galaxy and which are taken in ultimate defence of the (relatively) innocent.
    To me the Vong warfleet, whose purpose was to increase suffering at Fondor, would morally have been able to be destroyed by Centerpoint. The same applies to any Vong military ships and personnel, their intention is to inflict pain and reduce free-will so they deserve to be opposed.

    On the other hand destroying the worldship is not justifiable as Kyps purpose was to increase suffering by inflciting it upon the Vong, rather than decreasing it by protecting innocents from the Vong. The military potential of the worldship made it a viable target but Kyps reasons were unworthy.

    I disagree with Kyp generally because he is placing his own judgement above that of not only Luke but that of those the New Republic has appointed in their defence.
    But I disagree with Luke because his skills and knowledge would have been an asset to almost any operation against the Vong or in assisting refugees whose end result would have been to reduce suffering.

    What we need to ask is not if Jacen is right, but if Luke was right in the Black Fleet Crisis to refuse command of that E-Wing squadron.
    Luke decided that his personal growth in the knowledge of the Current and that rejection of violence required him to decline and although it has not been spelt out this may well have helped him achieve the inner peace to reject power in favour of enlightenment.
    But what were the immediate consequences of this? By denying the E-Wing squadron the benefit of his leadership and flying skills he may well have condemmed them to suffer greater losses in the fight against the Y'vetha.
    So long-term enlightenment vs short-term life saving....can we blame Jacen for following his masters example?
  9. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    I have ansered this question for myself, but I will ask you all a question. Do you think it is possible for a warrior to be a peacekeeper? And if that answer is yes, what does that mean for the Jedi?
  10. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    JMA: "But this doesn't mean that they have to be completely inactive in a combative sense until that time arrives."

    Nope and I've already said I agree to this. But with a big qualification: to save lives and survive yourself.

    "I personally feel that their intelligence gathering capabilities are being shockingly wasted by the NR, and a large part of the blame for that falls on Luke."

    I completely disagree. Everyone wants someone to blame when things arent going well and when things arent going according to their notion of the "correct action to take," which can be disputed in and of itself. Right now, fans blame Luke and Jacen for a majority of that inaction. Luke however has done everything in his power, not only to unite the jedi internally, but also to stay on good terms with the NR so that when the opportunity arises, the jedi may call on the NR for a striking victory. Although you may be right about the NR wasting the jedis' scouting capability, that is part of the inner turmoil that has given rise to this series. The NR and jedi are not only at war with the enemy, but at war with themselves on many levels also. The authors have done a magnificent of portraying this inner struggle that the YV has caused. Jacen is a concoction embodying many aspects of this inner turmoil of the NR and jedi on a 1-person scale.

    "Leading refugees to other, increasingly crowded, planets while the NR loses more and more ground, isn't the most productive thing they can be doing."

    Maybe not, but for the moment, I certainly cannot think of a better course of action. Right now we want to maximize everyone's chances of survival so that everyone will still be around when we do learn enough of the enemy to strike decisively and morally (in jedi terms).
  11. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Vergere:

    "Nope and I've already said I agree to this..... Maybe not, but for the moment, I certainly cannot think of a better course of action (Concerning the Jedi's remoteness from the battlefield to shuttle refugees to safe havens)"

    I think I might be misunderstanding your point, but to me this seems like a glaring contradiction.

    You're not against the Jedi taking a hand in the combat, so long as they survive to fight another day. Ok, I can understand that. Intelligence gathering gives them the opportunity to actually add something to the war effort, rather than the refugee effort. It also minimizes the chance of a Jedi being killed, as they would be trying to stay out of sight as much as possible.

    Yet you also say that the best thing a Jedi can do right now is shy from the battlefield in order to perform a task that any Force-sensitive would be just as capable of doing. Why? Why waste precious Jedi resources? The Jedi are special, they can obviously do things nobody else can, utilizing senses nobody else has. So why on Earth would planting them in a job that a non Force-sensitive could do just as well, be the best thing for the Jedi? It's worthy, yes. They are helping to preserve life. But finding a key to ending this war would preserve more lives in the long run, and that's something the Jedi need to be doing now and not later.

    JMA
  12. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    (Forgot this comment, sorry for the double post)

    Vergere-

    "Right now, fans blame Luke and Jacen for a majority of that inaction."

    I'm not blaming Luke for inaction. I'm blaming him for either not seeing the obvious or not using the Jedi for a task which they, above all other beings in the GFFA, are more suited for. While I wouldn't call myself a Luke supporter, I certainly wouldn't call myself a Luke detractor, not for the most part. I'm much more Anti-Kyp than Anti-Luke, and I don't feel he's solely to blame for Jedi inaction. I admire him for getting the refugee river flowing, but I'm fairly certain it will flow without Jedi sitting and watching it. He's started it, now move on to something more useful.

    JMA
  13. Darth Cerberus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 1999
    star 3
    Look at how the Empire was defeated: Luke and Vader defeated Palpatine. And then the Rebellion/New Republic forces defeated the non-Force using Forces of the Empire. The Rebellion had no chance in hell of defeating Palpatine, or with him even the rest of the Empire. But Luke (or even the Old Republic Jedi) would never have been able to defeat the Empire without non-Jedi assistance.


    As already pointed out, the Jedi can not defeat the Vong single handedly. They need to work in cooperation with the NR military. While some efforts have been made to this end, opposition from both politicians AND JEDI (and I think people like Luke himself, Mara, Jacen, etc are prime suspects here) have hindered this.


    The Jedi Knights "are defenders of peace and justice in the Galaxy." Exactly, when Jacen refuses such a role, he is no longer a Jedi. He is a lightsider (although he's so full of pride I think he is far closer to turning than anyone else) but most certainly not a Jedi.

    100 individuals can not defend the galaxy by themselves without being prepared to use the Force in ways they are not prepared to. That is fine. But to compensate for this they have to cooperate with the other groups out there who are charged with similar functions (eg the NR military). Most Jedi have no military experience and need the assistance of professionals who will be able to utilise their unique abilties in roles that the Jedi are comfortable with.

    -----------------------------------
    Quote:
    Are they monks devoted to find oneness with the force while promoting peace, justice, and ethics throughout the galaxy by acting as glorified policemen rather than as soldiers?
    -------------------------------------

    IMHO, the varying opinions on the rightness of Luke, Kyp and Jacen's actions demonstrates that the Jedi are very falible. It also disproves _JM_'s statement that they have a "special wisdom" that people need to accept.

    Kyp, Jacen, and all the other Jedi are ordinary people with extraordinary abilities. But those abilities are entirely physical. Superior moral judgment or even average intelligence are not automatically ensured with the ability to use the Force. Things like that must be learned just as everyone else has to.

    Even within such a small group, there are widely varying ideas about what constitutes 'justice' and what is ethical. Giving the Jedi free reign to romp around the galaxy executing what they see as justice is exactly what was being criticised in VP and used as justification for establishing a Jedi Council. Jedi or not, no one can go around inflicting their personal moral ideologies onto complete strangers.








  14. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    The misunderstanding is mine. You know as well as anyone that not ALL the jedi are helping refugees escape and not ALL of them are scouting. The reality is that jedi are placing their resources into whatever he or she feels is the right thing to do right now. For Kyp, its scouting and scoping for any opportunity to go on the offensive. For Jacen and Luke its been saving as many lives as possible. I think these activities actually balance well.

    "Yet you also say that the best thing a Jedi can do right now is shy from the battlefield"

    First of all, to save lives, you have to fight - and i'm never against that. To fight just to find some needle in the haystack (the key to ending this war as you call it) is foolish. Wurth Skidder thought he could that all by himself by getting himself captured and turning the yammosk against the YV. Well served jedi resources there. What Anakin found (with regard to the lambents) was an offshoot of his MAIN purpose on Yavin IV: and THAT was to save Tahiri's life. Nothing more and nothing less.
  15. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
    star 4
    Vergere-
    "I-poodoo, I think I'll be drained after you finish coming up with all these interesting topics of debate."

    Certainly hope not, Vergere, You've always bee able to come up with excellent points in these topics, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of them here.

    Vergere-
    "I feel Anakin best exemplifies the notion of a Jedi up to now."

    I agree, but with one condition for Anakin to become the "SuperJedi". He needs a kilogram more brains and a kilogram less balls. He's been acting really brashly since Conquest, and for the most part his strength in the force and the famed Solo luck has pulled him through, but he needs a bit more wiser to be able to think upon his options instead of going with his gut and hoping luck will pull him through. Maybe after he's grown...

    JMA-
    "Neither. A Jedi is neither a warrior or a monk, but a knight, a defender."

    Yes that's it. Thank you, JMA, that is the balance they need to find, but getting it to where it's clear on the particulars and details that'll be trouble. It's easy to have a clear defined charter of conduct as an individual (i.e Jacen). The hard part is getting many individuals to follow the charter as a whole group to the same degree especially under such desperate conditions as a war for survival (Jacen's failure to convince anyone that he's not being just a coward).

    I think everyone has agreed that the Jedi must do something. This river seems like a good start, we'll see. I also think this is why the OR Jedi had the Council so all options could be discussed to a crisis and to act correctly at the best time without any of the infuriating inaction of late.

    Knights, defenders! I love it.
  16. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "You know as well as anyone that not ALL the jedi are helping refugees escape and not ALL of them are scouting."

    This is true, and I think it is a great example of just how fractured the Jedi are as a group. I feel they could work much more effectively, to whatever end, as a unified entity under the guidance of a governing body. I'm a big advocate of the reinstatement of the Jedi Council, although I realize that at this current juncture in the NJO, that's highly impossible. I'm not just talking about it being hard to arrange a Council when a war is going on either. In order for this Council to be most effective they have to have as many differing opinions as possible...and I feel the majority of the older Jedi, who are the only ones really suited to the task of being on a Council, are almost wholly on Luke's side. Unfair advantage, and the council wouldn't be serving it's purpose.

    "To fight just to find some needle in the haystack (the key to ending this war as you call it) is foolish. Wurth Skidder thought he could that all by himself by getting himself captured and turning the yammosk against the YV. Well served jedi resources there. What Anakin found (with regard to the lambents) was an offshoot of his MAIN purpose on Yavin IV: and THAT was to save Tahiri's life. Nothing more and nothing less."

    Couple of points here:

    A) I'm not talking about "fighting to find a needle in a haystack". What sort of spy, which is what I think the Jedi are most useful as right now, goes around picking fights? Intelligence gathering results in a minimal risk of danger, and it's certainly more useful than what they're doing right now.

    B) Does it not make sense that the more you know about your enemy, the more effectively you can fight them? Who else in the NR could gather information on the Vong with the skill and efficiency that a Jedi Knight could? The more you know, the better your chances in a fight, the less lives that are lost. It's a win/win situation.

    C) Anakin's purpose on Yavin IV is irrelevant to this discussion. Is the fact that he had a major breakthrough in dealing with the Vong diminished, because he didn't mean to discover it? Of course not. All it should do is trigger understanding amongst the other Jedi. If a lowly lambent, as Vua Rapuung called it, could trigger such a realization within Anakin, what else could the Jedi discover about the Vong that could help them find a way to end this war? If Anakin wasn't meaning to gather intelligence, what could 50 Jedi, each on a mission to find out as much about the Vong as they could, while keeping as low of a profile as possible, discover?

    JMA
  17. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    Don't forget that Luke spearheaded and assigned many scouting missions in the DT duology. Right now, since theres a bounty on the jedi, Luke just feels that the best course of action is to forge an underground railroad, if you will, for jedi and other refugees possibly. And right now, I happen to agree. It certainly is not safe for jedi to be out in the open when anyone anywhere could turn on them (and Peace Brigade would make sure everyone knows the identity of the jedi, I'm sure).

    The authors, as I've said before, have created a unique time when the people of the galaxy, NR and jedi alike, are not only at war with the YV, but also at war with themselves. That makes determining any correct course of action an ambiguous task at best.
  18. III_Vir_RPC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 1
    The Jedi are neither warriors nor philosophers. They are knights (hence the name Jedi Knight), in the chivalric sense of the word. The Jedi Order is very much like the Teutonic Order---somewhere along the line, they have lost their initial purpose (probably when they acquired governmental connections).

    If, like the army of the Hochmeister Ulrich v. Jungingen, the Jedi charge blindly against the Yuuzhan Vong, they will meet the same fate as v. Jungingen did in 1410---annihilation.

    The Poles and Lithuanians who slaughtered the better portion of Hochmeister v. Jungingen's army (before they stabbed v. Jungingen through the throat a few times) were largely uncivilised; even the finest knights of King Wladislaw Jagiello were unable to compare to the Teutonic Knights---the latter were the finest in all Europe.

    Nevertheless, the Teutonic Knights were thoroughly defeated, the Hochmeister slain, the Order?s military might shattered, in the Tannenberg forest, bested by a horde of semi-barbaric Slavs (the spectacular defeat of Hochmeister v. Jungingen in the battle of Tannenberg was a source of considerable enmity for hundreds of years to come).

    The Yuuzhan Vong are, sadly, somewhat analogous to the valiant Poles and Lithuanians (in terms of the manner in which they fight, not in terms of motivation). If the Jedi, the élite knights of the Republic, attempt to face the Yuuzhan Vong by themselves, they will meet the same fate as the army of Hochmeister v. Jungingen.

    But....

    The Jedi are not by any means excused in their criminal lack of action thus far. The Jedi have committed greivous sins of ommission; in their desire to avoid the dark side, they sit idly by, whilst the Yuuzhan Vong invaders grind the galaxy ?neath their heel (not, of course, that cowardly hiding is something new for the Jedi; General Skywalker is, after all, following the example of his masters).

    But such an analysis is somewhat off-topic.

    At any rate, the Jedi are an order of knights. It is their responsibility to act as such. They are defenders and protectors---that is their responsibility, their raison d?être. They do not exist to avoid the temptation of the dark side. Consider what might the true Jedi, not their modern counterparts.

    What might Vodo Siosk-Baas or Thon do in such a situation as a Yuuzhan Vong invasion? Do you think they?d dither about needlessly, contemplating the possibility of falling to the dark side?

    Ever since the Sith War, the Jedi have lost their clearness of mind. Most likely, the terrible loss of the Army of Light has caused terrific restructuring within the Order. The modern Jedi have lost their way. With their exaggerated concern over theology or morality, their lofty idealism, has blinded them. It is no wonder that the Phantom Menace was able to sweep them aside.

    Jedi as philosophers? Jedi as warriors? The Jedi are neither, and they are both---they are knights.
  19. Jedi_Master_Thrawn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2000
    star 1
    They are both, and more. they are Warriors when nessasary, they are Peacemakers when possable, they are Teachers constantly, and they are (wise) advisors when heeded.
  20. Streick Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2001
    I think that the Jedi are mostly peacekeepers but they are the protectors of the galaxy, they should act but the specific course of action is the hard choice.
  21. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    I just wanted to note that the discussion between JMA and I has moved from what constitutes the correct sense of a jedi to what the jedi should be DOING right now (since we all agree that they should indeed be doing something). If anyone wants to join in, feel free!

    JMA: "I feel they could work much more effectively, to whatever end, as a unified entity under the guidance of a governing body."

    Unified is always good, but that also depends on the circumstance. Right now, I believe the resident people of the galaxy are best served by the current situation of the jedi: equally balanced between actively scouting and helping to save people.


    "and I feel the majority of the older Jedi, who are the only ones really suited to the task of being on a Council, are almost wholly on Luke's side. Unfair advantage,..."

    You know, that's one of the great things about this series. There has been a real division within the jedi order with some real questions about how things should be done. You look at Luke on 1 side of the debate - I look at Luke rather in the middle, always trying to pacify Kyp's ideas and actions with the NR government and Borsk. He is a leader and as such, there are real responsibilities not to upset any one side internally and externally of the jedi order. Bureacracy has always been a necessary evil in Star Wars, and Luke may have been designated to such a role. This is, afterall, the NEW jedi order.

    "Intelligence gathering results in a minimal risk of danger, and it's certainly more useful than what they're doing right now."

    There is always a grave risk of danger no matter what you do - especially right now in the NJO series with so many after the jedi - YV and NR people alike. Don't forget that a few of Kyp's dozen died trying gather the information about that worldship in Rebirth. The rest narrowly escaped. Now Kyp is a competent jedi - no one disputes that. Kyp is a survivor - even though his Dozen were completely decimated by YV skips when policing smugglers in Vector Prime, Kyp survived. If I were Kyp, I'd feel guilty at the numerous jedi I've lost who were loyal to me or at least a bit more responsible to those who follow me. Luke truly understands this as a leader but I feel Kyp has yet to understand this. The point is, gathering intelligence is not completely danger-free and may even incur more danger if you walk into something completely unexpected. If you feel that gathering intelligence about the enemy may be more important to a long-term cause right now, fine. I will always feel that fighting to save and rescue lives will be far more important - at least for the moment. The balance between those jedi doing either is ideal in my mind right now.

    "Does it not make sense that the more you know about your enemy, the more effectively you can fight them? Who else in the NR could gather information on the Vong with the skill and efficiency that a Jedi Knight could? The more you know, the better your chances in a fight, the less lives that are lost."

    What about those lives that are lost in gathering information when you could have been working to save them? These lives may number in the hundreds or thousands. As long as I'm needed to save people, I for one cannot turn by back on them. That is what being a jedi is all about.

    "Anakin's purpose on Yavin IV is irrelevant to this discussion."

    Wrong - it is very revelant to this discussion... especially to THIS discussion. We are discussing the true sense of the jedi and you argued that anakin is gathering evidence to help the long-term effort of actually defeating the YV ("Look at what Anakin is doing. The intelligence he's gathered on the YV is invaluable to the Jedi"). I argued that gathering evidence was not the primary purpose of Anakin's mission on Yavin IV - it was to save Tahiri's life. That is in fact what a jedi should be doing! I never said you can't try to learn and gather evidence while you're specifically trying to save someone. The fact that he chanced on lambents through which he could vaguely sense
  22. _JM_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 4
    I didn't meant to imply I thought Jedi were infallible, after the number of mistakes we've seen them make that would be a incredibly stupid statement.

    What a Jedi does have (over a "conventional" policeman / negotiator / arbitrator) is the ability to use the force to sense the intentions and feelings of both sides in a dispute and (occasionally) to be able to meditate and feel the best solution.

    So if a Jedi uses his link to the universe (or at least to the galaxy) to gain insight then he or she has a special wisdom.
    If on the other hand they just let their own prejudices get in the way of gaining this insight then they are no better and in many cases worse than a trained arbitrator.
  23. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    First I would like to say that all of you have been stating very good points. I don?t really disagree with any of you. There were some things that III_Vir_RPC said that just didn?t exactly sit right with me. I think that he might be being a little too harsh with the Jedi. Than again, that?s probably just me. :)

    Before I start talking about the way I see things, let me define some words that I feel need to be defined to make my point.

    Monk: a man who is a member of a religious order.

    Religion: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.

    The word Knight has many meanings, not the least of which being ?A man-at-arms serving a feudal superior? or ?a man ceremonially inducted into special military rank after completing service as a page and squire.?

    A monk is not necessarily a person who hides from the world and prays all day. There have been monks who have become masters of martial arts, and have been some of the greatest hand to hand fighters the world has ever seen.

    The word knight implies to me a defender whose chief skill lies in the art of combat.

    There are many different types of Jedi. There are certainly Jedi whose chief skill lies in the art of combat (the most obvious examples I can think of are Tenel Ka and probably Kyp). There are Jedi whose chief skill lies in the art of healing (Cilghal comes to mind). There are Jedi whose chief skill lies in diplomacy (Leia and now Jacen seem to fit in this category). Fighting is certainly one of a Jedi?s skills, but it is not always his best skill.

    The ward monk does not imply a chief skill of any kind. It only means a man who holds his morals above everything else. I personally think that to say that a Jedi is a monk is much more accurate than to say that a Jedi is a knight.
  24. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Before I post another response, I just want to comment once again on the unbelievably high level of conversation that's been in the forums recently. Kudos to all involved, because these conversations have been fantastic!

    Now, on with the show...

    "What about those lives that are lost in gathering information when you could have been working to save them? These lives may number in the hundreds or thousands. As long as I'm needed to save people, I for one cannot turn by back on them. That is what being a jedi is all about."

    That's an excellent point Vergere, but ask yourself this question: What are the Jedi doing, by aiding those refugees, that a normal person could not do? Why do you need a fully trained Jedi Knight to perform the task of basically herding sheep? Now granted, Luke and Leia have been vital in getting this river flowing, but like I said earlier, I'm fairly certain the river will continue to flow at this point, without Jedi to babysit it. I was all for the Jedi being involved in the refugee business at first. With the Vong invasion being new and shockingly devestating at first, it was their most pressing task. They needed to help protect the living by finding a relatively safe haven for them. They did, the Force is served, and on to the next task. Well, that's how things should have worked out, but sadly they haven't. Now that the river o' refugees has been established, and the YV forces being stretched to the breaking point, there is almost a cease-fire in the GFFA. My question is, why aren't the Jedi moving on to what the Galaxy needs right now. Now is the PERFECT time to gain intelligence, because the fighting has slowed to a minimum for now. Judging by the upcoming titles in the series, it doesn't look like that's going to be the case for much longer. Their window of opportunity to learn more about their enemy is closing fast. The fact of the matter is, the NR still knows precious little about the YV. The information that they do have has come almost solely from Jedi intelligence gathering. Why not expand the search?


    "I argued that gathering evidence was not the primary purpose of Anakin's mission on Yavin IV - it was to save Tahiri's life."

    Technical point here. Anakin's mission on Yavin was actually not to save Tahiri, but to get the Jedi children off planet. He was only forced to rescue Tahiri because of her foolishness. Make of that what you will.

    "Of course to use this, all the jedi would need lambents and forge new lightsabers for themselves. And forging your lightsaber is a very personal experience."

    They wouldn't have to forge new lightsabers, they'd just have to open up theirs and replace their current crystals with the lambent. And yes, it is a very personal experience. But this war, for the Jedi especially, is a very very personal thing. It's something that I see as a necessity. Vague or not, the fact is that Anakin can sense the Vong. In Conquest he is able to anticipate YV attacks to an extent, keeping him alive against impossible odds. The ability to sense the YV would give the Jedi an unbelievable advantage, and make them that much more effective, allowing them to save even MORE lives.

    "50 jedi would be so conspicuous that if word ever got out, which it very well could, they could be heading straight into trap. Especially what the YV would love: to get their hands on 50 jedi at one time!"

    Well I'm not talking about sending all 50 of them to one place certainly! Send them in pairs, like Luke did before. Also, I think you might be overstating the fame that the Jedi have. The Order as a whole is a famous thing, and certain members have been thrust into the spotlight for various reasons, i.e. Luke, the Solo kids, Kyp...etc. But what about Jedi such as Dorsk 82 and Kelbis Nu? We don't even know the names of the majority of the current active Jedi, and I doubt Luke does a live telecast everytime another student ascends to the rank of Knight. A Jedi going undercover, so to speak, would stand a very very good chance at being able to sli
  25. Peacekeeper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2001
    star 3
    Jedi are peacekeepers...PEROID...
    But they fight when they need to... i.e tales of the jedi series
    Think of the kights templer...
    But the problem is that luke keeps looking back @ the old jedi order & trys to copy it...
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