What are your thoughts on Scientology???

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Boba_Fat83, Jun 7, 2005.

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  1. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Have you even read what Scientologists believe in? It is completely ludicrous and asinine and downright idiotic. I cannot see anyway that anyone could take it seriously. It is a joke. It's like a really bad sci-fi novel or movie. Read the current Rolling Stone magazine, look it up on the Internet.

    I've read what scientologists believe in and it's no more ridiculous than what Christianity, Islam, or Judaism believe in. If you're going to discount this faith for its ridiculousness at least be consistent about it.
  2. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    ^what he said.

    Scientology is no more or less legitamate than any other religion.

    Oh, and Buddism isn't a faith, it's a ideology based on the life of a real person.
  3. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Scientology is no more or less legitamate than any other religion.

    Including the one I just made up?

    Seriously: Indisputably phony beliefs aside, is the idea that "AIDS is a state of mind" legitimate? Is subjecting children to 18-hour work days, away from school and family, for months at a stretch legitimate? How about telling your members that they have nonexistent powers, and if those powers don't work, they're broken people and need to spend more money on "treatment"? Is that legitimate too? Is anything and everything Scientology does legitimate, just because it calls itself a religion?

    No offense, but if you're still defending them, you don't understand what they do.
  4. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Here. Read this, and then tell me if Scientology's still worth defending.

    Some highlights of my childhood in the Sea Org in Los Angeles from 1972-1982:

    My parents joined the Sea Org in 1972 when I was six years old. I remember my mom filling out my Sea Org contract, one of the questions was did I have any hobbies. I said I liked doing housework with my mom. I was brought to the Cadet Org and went to a public school. After school, I was supervised with a group of children. I saw my parents one day a week. I was never given a doctor?s checkup or taken to the dentist. Our living conditions were not sanitary. Many kids had lice and I remember a girl who had scabies.

    Captain Bill Robertson came to the Cadet Org on a mission around 1973. At one point, he had all the kids line up for muster, and then had us yell ?Hip, Hip, Hooray!? to L Ron Hubbard forty times, while we were photographed. The kids at the Cadet Org were always encouraged to ?write letters to Ron.?

    When I was seven or eight, I was given manual labor to do, such as cleaning toilets, scrubbing floors and washing dishes. I remember my mother being angry that they had children scrub toilets. She thought we could get a disease. I remember once when I was seven, my mom had to ask permission to take us from the Cadet Org to visit our dad at another location. She wasn?t given permission to take us, and as she sat angrily in the car, she shouted to no one in particular ?This is insane!? I asked her, what does ?insane? mean? She took us to visit our dad even though she didn?t have permission. When we got back we were assigned lower conditions for ?blowing.? Funny, a seven year old kid, being assigned a condition of Treason and made to do ?amends? which meant I was assigned to scrub the floor for a certain amount of hours. Someone tried to explain the conditions to me and help me through the steps of the conditions. I didn?t even know what the words meant.

    They didn?t really put high quality people in charge of supervising the Sea Org children. I remember one man, named Fred, who used to terrorize us. He would shout ?Revele, revele, roll-out!? and walk through our bedrooms to wake us up. If we didn?t jump out of bed immediately, he would rip the covers off and tip the mattress over. He would yell at us, push us, and pull our hair. He was a strong, angry man. It was rumored that he had sexually abused his daughters. One time he brought me and other children (about 15 kids) to the backyard of a Sea Org house on Beacon Street in Los Angeles. We had some supplies, such as rakes to clean up the yard. He told us to line up against the wall of the house, in order by height. He then picked up a brick and said, you are all going to clean up this yard, and if I catch anyone fooling around, I?m going to make you line up against this wall just like you are now, and I?m going to throw this brick at each one of your heads, starting with her (pointing to the smallest child.)

    When the Sea Org children were living on Melrose Ave, we used to have a secret word that was yelled whenever a health inspector was coming to the building. I believe it was ?Code One? it meant we all had to go in our rooms and shut the door. This was because the Health Inspector was told there weren?t any children living at the building.

    I was taken out of public school while I was in the sixth grade. I got no further education. I joined the CMO when I was 12. I worked from 8:30 am to 11:00 pm, everyday of the week. I also had to participate in ?all-hands? which meant working all night, then working the next day as well. I had very little free time. Occasionally I?d get half a day off on Sunday for ?hygiene time? to do laundry and clean my room. Pay was about $5 to $20 a week. We were told we could have a day off once every other week if our stats were up. It was called ?libs? for ?liberty? (ironic, considering we had no freedom in the Sea Org). We used to joke around, as if we were quoting Patrick Henry, saying ?Give me Liberty, or give me Hygiene time!? More often th
  5. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
  6. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    Seriously: Indisputably phony beliefs aside, is the idea that "AIDS is a state of mind" legitimate?

    It's no more illegitimate than suggesting the world was created 4,000 years ago, or that the red sea can separate, or that it's possible to come back from the dead, or that it's technically feasible to put two of every animal in a boat and expect them not to eat each other, or that spending a night in a lion's den won't result in mauling and death, or that a tin of sardines can feed 5,000 people.

    No offense, but if you're still defending them, you don't understand what they do.

    You misunderstand my point - I am not defending their religion, just pointing out that your criteria for condemning them it completely flawed.

    There's nothing you can accuse them of that you can't accuse any other religion of.




    There's no doubt that Scientology has some crazy ideas and rules, but then so does every other religion.

    Oh, and regarding your AIDS comment - didn't the catholic church claim that condoms were ineffective against AIDS ? (rhetorical question, because I know they did).



    If you want to claim that Scientology is illegitimate then you need to find better criteria.
  7. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    It's no more illegitimate than suggesting the world was created 4,000 years ago, or that the red sea can separate, or that it's possible to come back from the dead, or that it's technically feasible to put two of every animal in a boat and expect them not to eat each other, or that spending a night in a lion's den won't result in mauling and death, or that a tin of sardines can feed 5,000 people.

    None of those beliefs can kill you. Except the one about the lion's den, but how often does that come up? Besides, surely you see the difference between the belief that one individual thousands of years ago could perform miracles, and the belief that you yourself can.

    Christianity's beliefs, outlandish as they may sometimes be, are harmless. Scientology's beliefs are designed to break you, and can easily harm you, especially when you get sick. (Which is easy to do when they've locked you in a rat-infested bilge with fifty other kids.)

    As far as the Catholic Church's stance on AIDS goes, it's very flawed, but which is worse: Telling people half- (or quarter-) truths to prevent them from geting AIDS, or charging them all their money for phony cures?

    There's nothing you can accuse them of that you can't accuse any other religion of.

    You didn't read those two articles. Read them. Then tell me that the Methodists, the Presbyterians, the Catholics, or the Jews routinely abduct adolescent children to force them into months of hard labor away from their families, without getting paid and getting locked in rat-infested holes whenever their "superiors" feel like it.

    Also, read this.

    And this.

    And this.

    And this. (I'll sum this one up: Girl dies of gunshot wound to forehead while on one of Hubbard's ships. Hubbard's men improbably rule it a suicide. Girl's father presses for investigation. Hubbard and his men respond with threats and harrassment.)

    And before you say anything about Catholic priests: Less than one half of one percent of the clergy has ever been accused of any sexual crime. Scientology's practices were all laid down and enforced by Hubbard himself.

    In conclusion, tolerance is all well and good, but too much tolerance can cause just as much damage as too little. Hubbard was a cruel, violent madman, and his "church" was built in his own image. Don't turn a blind eye to that. Don't.
  8. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    One more thing:

    When you talk about "better criteria," what kind of criteria do you mean? What would it take to convince you that Scientology is illegitimate and dangerous?
  9. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    In the news:

    Following last-year's Scientology-(and Tom Cruise)-bashing episode of South Park, Isaac Hayes, a Scientologist and voice of the character Chef on that show, has asked to be released from his contract.

    From the AP:

    "There is a place in this world for satire, but there is a time when satire ends and intolerance and bigotry towards religious beliefs of others begins," the 63-year-old soul singer and outspoken Scientologist said.

    "Religious beliefs are sacred to people, and at all times should be respected and honored," he continued. "As a civil rights activist of the past 40 years, I cannot support a show that disrespects those beliefs and practices."

    "South Park" co-creator Matt Stone responded sharply in an interview with The Associated Press Monday, saying, "This is 100 percent having to do with his faith of Scientology... He has no problem ? and he's cashed plenty of checks ? with our show making fun of Christians."



    As a fan of the show, I'm sad to lose the character of Chef. If Isaac Hayes doesn't want to work with people who bash his religion, that's fine, but I think he should be more honest about his reasons. South Park has never been a show to pull punches with regard to religion. Hayes's implication that this behavior is new is dishonest and insulting to his fans and fans of the show.

    <rant>Yet another bit of Scientology insanity.<rant>

    P.S. on another South Park note, tonight Comedy Central is airing the episode where Cartman kills a kid's parents and feeds them to the kid, yet the network has indefinitely pulled another episode because of a menstruating Virgin Mary. Go figure.
  10. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    You're 100% wrong. I can criticize Scientology not because of its beliefs, (which I admit are idiotic, but so is being a NY Rangers fan) but its methods of using fear and isolation into forcing people to either stay or be quiet about its motives. There's a quote in the Rolling Stone article that's highly disturbing:

    So you're going to hold my family as collateral in order to assure my obedience? Name me another religion that does that and isn't subjugated to the scrutiny of others. How is this NOT considered a cult? It DEMANDS strict obedience to its own set of rules and offers severe punishment if they're not obeyed. Now, I know you're going to point out that most religions place "God's Law" above man's, but name me a time where a Christian was held in a room for days, weeks and months on end for "violating" God's Laws. The harshest we get (as Catholics) is a 5 minute confession. We're not subjected to the following:

    They PHYSICALLY BLOCK YOU. I've never been physically blocked leaving anything Church (Catholic again) in my life. How is this not a violation of civil rights? Not even a hospital can make you stay if you don't want to! But hey, these people sign these waivers giving up control of their lives to others who want to use them to promote their own agenda, so I shouldn't feel too bad.

    Everything I've read makes this sound like another harmful practice masquerading as a religion. (See for example, Opus Dei) Not to mention the complete scam of making people pay for their enlightenment:

    True, you've only been around for 50 years, but you have amassed fortunes into the billions. Surely you can offer these things for free, no? I mean if you really want to be taken seriously, you shouldn't have a menu board with prices next to L.Ron's name, no? Why not make the fee voluntary? People call the Catholic
  11. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    its methods of using fear and isolation into forcing people to either stay or be quiet about its motives.

    um, so does the catholic church. It's also rife in the islamc faith too.
  12. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    Yes, but they're called on it and the outrage is overwhelming (see the recent Pedophile Priests Problem (and yes, I do like alliteration)). When someone calls attention to the evils behind Scientology, they're threatened, sued, barred from seeing their family (eihter convincing the family, or through straight out kidnapping) and there are even times when the "church" has suppossedly spread false rumors about the person leaving (like they're either homosexuals or pedophiles) to defame them. The media has largely ignored them (although Tom Cruise pretty much forced them to address the situation after his rants during last year's press tour for Wra of the Worlds.) or were threatened to be quiet on it.

    All in all, the whole "Church" has a feel of Communism (the betterment of community over the individual to the point where the state of the individual is largely ignored to straight out Gestapo tactics in keeping people both in line and on course.
  13. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    When someone calls attention to the evils behind Scientology, they're threatened, sued, barred from seeing their family (eihter convincing the family, or through straight out kidnapping) and there are even times when the "church" has suppossedly spread false rumors about the person leaving

    Not to sounds like a broken record, but the catholic church has done that too.
  14. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    No, I get you, but has the church done it recently? Have you seen the church attack an individual with eninimity seen on the scale that Scientology does it? I'm not talking about a group of people, (we're all well aware of the Catholic Church's stance on homosexuality and abortion and other social issues) but picking on an individual to the point of ruining that person's life? All because they disagreed with what they were being told? That seems (forget seems IS) a violation of a basic human right - freedom of thought. And name the time in the past fifty years when one of thee major religions did that, ruin someone's life for thinking differently.

    And I get the fact that you're not defending Scientology, just pointing out how it shares similar faults with the major religions, but one thing that it doesn't share with the major religions is that it's dominated by money. They make money by giving you a sense of self. Which is fine, there's plenty of things that charge for that, but NONE of them are religions. Visiting a shrink, falling in love and doing drugs all give someone a sense of self - but no one would consider them religions. And god knows they all cost money. (as those with a girlfriend can attest) I can't imagine the IRS giving me a tax break because I fell in love or talked to a psychologist!
  15. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6

    Eh, there's still some debate on that. Remember, Hubbard certified to suffer from schizophrenia, IIRC. He was almost certainly mentally ill. It's possible he started out as a scammer, and later believed his delusions.

    The man was crazy. Really, legally, bats***.



  16. Beowulf Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 1999
    star 5
    Well, to get the tax break, you have to be married. That's how you can gain financially by falling in love.


    It's too bad Scientology took off as well as it did. L. Ron Hubbard must've been quite persuasive...
  17. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    It's possible he started out as a scammer, and later believed his delusions.

    That's certainly possible. He went around telling people he was a living god, surrounded himself with people who treated him like one, every second of every day... I wouldn't be at all surprised if it went to his head.

    Then again, he apparently went against his own teachings (there were drugs in his bloodstream when he died), so who really knows?
  18. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    No, I get you, but has the church done it recently? Have you seen the church attack an individual with eninimity seen on the scale that Scientology does it? I'm not talking about a group of people, (we're all well aware of the Catholic Church's stance on homosexuality and abortion and other social issues) but picking on an individual to the point of ruining that person's life?

    Isn't that more or less what happened to the guy involved in translating and publishing the dead sea scrolls ? The Vatican were unimpressed with the translation so kept the scrolls and prevented their publication for decades.
  19. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    No, I get you, but has the church done it recently? Have you seen the church attack an individual with eninimity seen on the scale that Scientology does it? I'm not talking about a group of people, (we're all well aware of the Catholic Church's stance on homosexuality and abortion and other social issues) but picking on an individual to the point of ruining that person's life?

    I'm sure the author of that trite piece of work The Da Vinci Code would say the Catholic church is trying to ruin his life. Not that it has worked successfully, but that they've done it.
  20. GrandAdmiralThrawn66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 1

    How has the Catholic church tried to ruin Browns life? You do realize the Da Vinci Code is fiction, same with Angels and Demons? :cool:
  21. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Catholic church didn't enslave his children.
  22. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Sweet South Park. It's done more to make Scientology look stupid than even scientology's own followers.

    This week's trashing of Chef and scientology was just plain fantastic. And to end it with a Revenge of the Sith parody made it even better. I'm gratified to live in a society where even though it's sometimes difficult to make fun of people for their most idiotic beliefs, at least some people are willing to do it.
  23. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    Quite frankly, "But so and so does it too!" is not a valid defense. Does that make it okay?


    Besides, last time I checked, I don't see the Pope sitting in prison for a few years for espionage and fraud against the U.S. government.



  24. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    No, it never makes it okay. But it does make these people crying foul out to be hypocrites.
  25. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    exactly - I could not have said it better myself.
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