What are your thoughts on Scientology???

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Boba_Fat83, Jun 7, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    But it does make these people crying foul out to be hypocrites.

    Like who? If you've noticed, no one here who's pointed out Scientology's numerous serious crimes is religious.

    Seriously, what would it take for you to consider Scientology illegitimate or dangerous? We've got scams, sadistic mind games, the abduction and enslavement of children, and the occasional murder or three--what does it take?

    If Jim Jones/Marshall Applewhite/David Koresh were still around, would you be saying, "Sure, he's orchestrating massacres/driving people to suicide/raping an adolescent harem, but--look, it's the Goodyear Blimp! I mean--look, it's the Catholic Church!"

    And all because they call themselves a religion. Is that all it takes to get a free pass?
  2. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I'm not giving them a free pass. I'm saying if people want to wallow in their own stupidity that it's their decision. Much like people that follow a widely recognized religion.

    Seriously, what would it take for you to consider Scientology illegitimate or dangerous? We've got scams, sadistic mind games, the abduction and enslavement of children, and the occasional murder or three--what does it take?

    Given that the big three have all done some or all of these things in the past and still continue to do some of them, I'd say Scientology is just joining in the fun.
  3. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Besides, last time I checked, I don't see the Pope sitting in prison for a few years for espionage and fraud against the U.S. government.

    That would be because the Pope, even if he committed fraud, is in his own country not the U.S.

    Religion has its dominance. Over the centuries, in the name of religion, people have persecuted, damned, hanged, shot, raped, murdered, conquered, and ruled with a bloody fist. And they got their way. No need to threaten the masses since the masses are now followers. If Scientology had been around for thousands of years it too would not need to resort to the corruption that it does, it would only have to resort to the corruption that religion does today which is far more mild though no less serious(hiding pedophiles for example).

    It's like Hubbard pulled the wool of everyone's eyes after he told them he was going to pull the wool over their eyes. The guy was nuts but he knew he invented a relgion out of a bogus science fiction tale and somehow he got a tax exempt religion out of it. If the stories of Jesus or Krishna or Buddha or any other Messiah were invented today in this century rather than thousands of years ago they would be met with the same criticism as Scientology.
    The story of Xenu is nothing more than a creation story minus the high-browed wording of ancient religious texts.
  4. lorn_zahl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    Not if you believe in something else and it comes from your heart. It's just too bad people can't get along.

    "Since 1986 authorities in France, Spain and Italy have raided more than 50 Scientology centers. Pending charges against more than 100 of its overseas church members include fraud , extortion , capital flight, coercion , illegally practicing medicine and taking advantage of mentally incapacitated people."

    - Time Magazine, May 6, 1991


    There's some dirt for ya. People are flawed and it'll manifest in what they believe in.


  5. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Given that the big three have all done some or all of these things in the past and still continue to do some of them, I'd say Scientology is just joining in the fun.

    You're going to have to back that up. Do modern Christians practice child slavery? (And I'm not talking about any kind of metaphorical "slavery;" I'm talking about unpaid, sixteen-hour work days on rusty, disease-ridden ships.) Do modern Jews?

    Seriously, you can't paint every religion with the exact same brush. If you did, you'd have to accept the Branch Dividians, the Jonestowners, and the Church of Batman as legitimate faiths, and excuse all their practices, no matter how criminal, damaging or otherwise reprehensible, because "oh, it's their religion; they can do what they want."

    You can always walk away from a Christian church; just stop coming in on Sundays, and you'll never have to look over your shoulder for any spies or thugs dogging your steps. Not so with Scientology; try to leave, and they'll first make every effort to physically restrain you, then do everything in their power, legal and otherwise, to ruin you if you succeed in escaping. This doesn't bother you?

    If Scientology's innumerable, ongoing scams, games, abductions and worse don't bother you, then I'm asking a third time: What would?
  6. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    You're going to have to back that up. Do modern Christians practice child slavery? (And I'm not talking about any kind of metaphorical "slavery;" I'm talking about unpaid, sixteen-hour work days on rusty, disease-ridden ships.) Do modern Jews?

    Are you really going to go with that line of thought? Is that what you think I meant by some of the modern day religions practicing things they?ve all done in the past? No, Scams: see: Jim Baker and the collection plate. Sadistic mind games: religion in and of itself is a sadistic mind game. Where else can you get people to believe in an omnipotent boogie man? And occasional murder?well they don?t really officially practice it these days. But I don?t see Christians crying foul when an abortion doctor is murdered. And while believing Xenu is a stupid and vapid belief system it?s still the person?s right to practice it. If you?re harping over the fact that it?s a scam you?re going to have to go after every religion in history as well. They all have been dangerous for the population as a whole at one point or another. All religion is a scam of one form or another and they all ask you to deny specific parts of your humanity to serve whichever deity they believe in.

    Seriously, you can't paint every religion with the exact same brush. If you did, you'd have to accept the Branch Dividians, the Jonestowners, and the Church of Batman as legitimate faiths, and excuse all their practices, no matter how criminal, damaging or otherwise reprehensible, because "oh, it's their religion; they can do what they want."

    Yes, they can do whatever they want. So long as it?s within the bounds of the law. And if members perpetrate criminal acts then punish those members. How hard is this logic to see? If Catholics can white wash their sins by saying, ?Oh well, we?ll punish our members and the laws of those nations can punish them. But they do not represent us as a whole. Nor does anything we?ve done in the past.? Then so too can scientology. Ditto to any Christian, Jew, or Muslim that commits a heinous action. Hold those specific members responsible for it. Not the entire religion. And that?s where you people are going wrong. I believe if you want to be stupid and generally ignorant of things then join a religion. But that?s your right as a human to be stupid. No-one says that you have to join in the idiocy.

    You can always walk away from a Christian church; just stop coming in on Sundays, and you'll never have to look over your shoulder for any spies or thugs dogging your steps. Not so with Scientology; try to leave, and they'll first make every effort to physically restrain you, then do everything in their power, legal and otherwise, to ruin you if you succeed in escaping. This doesn't bother you?

    If you?ve been a member of a church for a while they won?t just let you walk away that easily. Especially if your whole community is a part of your church. You will be shunned by your neighbors and anyone else you knew for leaving. So don?t try to play ?the other religions are more innocent? game. Churches are much like the mafia except they don?t kill you physically. They kill you socially.


    If Scientology's innumerable, ongoing scams, games, abductions and worse don't bother you, then I'm asking a third time: What would?

    I never said it doesn't bother me. But I?m kind of cynical in that way that it?s just the way religions act. All religions have a bunch of kooks in them taking one form or another IMO. And while that view may not be acceptable, it?s true. I?ve never seen all members of one religion act sanely all of the time; so I?m given to believe that the insanity that religion brings to people is dangerous in every 100 people or so. It gets worse when the insane ones gather in clusters.
  7. LORDeron_MAULer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2003
    star 4
    You know...I'm sensing a distinct disrespect for all religion of any kind...
    I'm not exactly an expert on this topic or thread, or anything aqbout Scinetology, but wouldn't the afformentioned things bad about Scinentology be against the law? you make some valid points though.
  8. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I have very little respect for religion except Pagans/Wiccans, Judaism, and Hindus. These groups are worthy of respect for the unerring ability to just let things be and not worry about how many converts they get.


  9. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    but wouldn't the afformentioned things bad about Scinentology be against the law?

    At least part of his operations take place in international waters, so there's that.

    Still, there's all the child abuse he himself directly orchestrated, his own wife spent years in jail when the CoS was busted for infiltrating government offices and stealing classified information, and, of course, there's the whole "charging people all their money for phony AIDS cures" business.

    Anything you could accuse Christianity of, Scientology does much, much worse. For an easy example, most Christian churches will ask for 10% of your income at most; Scientology demands almost 100%. Again, most Christian churches will let you leave (my family's certainly did, and my family's kept all the same friends ever since), while Scientology will physically stalk you, even from town to town. And while some Christian churches invite you to confess your sins and troubles, none of them will physically restrain you and demand every single detail (which they then, of course, blackmail you with if you try to leave).

    This isn't a question of some few rogue members going against their teachings. (After all, nothing in the Catholic faith says "molest young boys," and fewer than one half of one percent of the clergy has ever been accused of anything like it.) These are their teachings. Where Jesus' teachings were all about love, forgiveness, and humility, Scientology's teachings revolve around personal gain. Their pitch amounts to "Tired of being pushed around? We'll teach you how to stomp on anyone who gets in your way!" (That, and "Oh my God, you're about to commit suicide! Really, you are! Quick, start giving us money so we can fix you!") The practices of assaulting "suppressive persons" in every possible way, law be damned?those weren't cooked up by some rogue element, but handed down by Hubbard himself.

    No offense, but if you still think Scientology is on the same level as Christianity, you need to learn more about Scientology.
  10. BenduHopkins Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2004
    star 4
    Chef's death in SouthPark was awesome and well deserved! All hail Xenu!
  11. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    Try reading this interview with Hubbard's own son.

    For crying out loud, the man laced his ten year old son's bubble gum with phenobarbitol.

    Also, Christianity is incredibly diverse-there are how many different flavors of it? Not so with Scientology. But even then, bringing up Christianity is just a red herring. Debate Scientology on ITS OWN MERITS, not on how it compares to other religions.

    If you want to discuss the failings of Christianity, take it to another thread.

  12. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Hubbard Jr.: I began to see that my father was a sick, sadistic, vicious man. I saw more and more parallels between his behavior and what I read about the way Hitler thought and acted. I was realizing that my father really wanted to destroy his enemies and take over the world. Whoever was perceived as his enemy had to be destroyed, including me. This "fair game" policy since the beginning. The organization couldn't exist without it. It keeps people very quiet.


    Penthouse: Do you mean killed?


    Hubbard Jr: Well, he didn't really want people killed, because how could you really destroy them if you just killed them? What he wanted to do was to destroy their lives, their families, their reputations, their jobs, their money, everything. My father was the type of person who, when it came to destruction, wanted to keep you alive for as long as possible, to torture you, punish you. If he chose to destroy you, he would love to see you lying in the gutter, strung out on booze and drugs, rolling in your own vomit, with your wife and children gone forever: no job, no money. He'd enjoy walking by and kicking you and saying to other people, "Look what I did to this man!"
  13. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    Let's look at it this way-Scientology is less of a religion and more of an anti-psychology organization. The only reason Hubbard made it a religion was to get the medical community off of his back and to get tax-exempt status.

    Perhaps if we look at it from THAT viewpoint, rather than as a religion, we can judge it on its own merits, rather than comparing it to such and such religion.

  14. SaberGiiett7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 6
    Scientology would be a great B-grade science-fiction film! Other than that . . .

    <[-]> Saber
  15. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    I agree - providing we can do the same with catholisism. I mean, the Pope created his own little country with tax evasion and the like.
  16. GrandAdmiralThrawn66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 1
    Please, comparing the cult of scientology to the Catholicism is wrong and is just plain insulting. I suggest we quit comparing different religions and stick to discussing the point of the thread and that is Scientology.
  17. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    why is it "wrong" ?

    I've asked this before, and been given a list of "reasons" why Scientology is evil/bad/sick, but then I point out that many other religions are guilty of exactly the same things.

    So, what are your criteria ?


    This isn't offtopic, it's perfectly on-topic. Too many people here are slating Scientology, rather than discussing Scientology, and I'm just pointing out the hypocracy of your statements.
  18. GrandAdmiralThrawn66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 1
    Well most of the articles Ive read on Scientology demonize it(doesnt mean thats its true). Ive read essays and articles on its so called founder that made me cringe. And well Ive never heard of one thing that it has done to help out anybody, benifit anything. I ask you to provide some shread of evidence on what good scientology has done? Have they fed the poor? Nursed the sick? Housed the homeless? Ive heard of them doing none of these things.

    P.S. This is a thread on Scientology, I have not read nor heard of anything that is comparable with Catholicism, again if you have something that proves that they are comparable prove it. I dont see what point you are trying to make.
  19. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Does a group have to benefit everyone to be considered a religion?
  20. GrandAdmiralThrawn66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 1
    I dont know, but I know it shouldnt harm people
  21. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    What do you define as harm? I consider pulling the wool over someone's eyes that there's a deity to be harmful, you'd consider it 'faithful'.
  22. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    Religion is about faith, not helping other people, or feeding the homeless.

    I have not read nor heard of anything that is comparable with Catholicism, again if you have something that proves that they are comparable prove it.

    The Pope says Christianity is a religion, Hubbard says Scientology is a religion. Neither has any fundamental right to say what is, and what isn't a true religion.

    People follow the Pope. People follow Hubbard.

    Scientology and Christianity both have elements of faith and hence are religions.

    They are absolutely comparable.
  23. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    it's also worth pointing out that the Pope's people stated that condoms didn't protect against AIDS.

    That's EXTREMELY harmful in my opinion
  24. GrandAdmiralThrawn66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 1
    Well people dont "follow" the pope, he is no God. As for the AIDS condom issue I believe that document was written by a cardinal of the church and it is proven that some cases of aids have been passed through condoms (granted thats less than 1% chance but still) But the whole issue is of birth control and as you already know its forbidon status within the church. Certantly youd agree that two healthy people who just have sex after they are married have no chance of getting aids? Lastly the Pope does not say Catholicism is a religion, Jesus Christ does-he was no Pope so I dont understand you comparision to scientology there either.
  25. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    Actually, set groups need to fufill a setr of criteria to be recognised as a religion. If they don't meet the criteria then neither academia or the governement will recognise them. I can post this set of criteria later if you would like but at the moment I need to run to work.

    Kithera
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.