What are your thoughts on Scientology???

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Boba_Fat83, Jun 7, 2005.

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  1. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    malkie, people don't follow the pope as an all-knowing leader, and that's certainly not within church doctrine or dogma.

    your criticisms seem valid on some levels (applying to one what you apply to another), but in some cases, you're having to stretch doctrines or general facts to the breaking point.

    the pope does not speak for tens of millions of christians, and probably not for tens of millions of Catholics as well. he is the leader of catholicism, but even within catholicism, there is much disagreement with him and with each other. i'm certain you'd be hard pressed to find that to be the case within scientology.
  2. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Malkie, for the fourth time now:

    What would it take to convince you that Scientology is bad? We've got a "religion" that enslaves children, sucks away all the money of all its followers, forbids its members from leaving, stalks, harasses and blackmails those who manage to escape (after physically forcing them to reveal every detail of their personal lives), sues and threatens opponents into ruin, charges desperate patients ridiculous amounts of money for bogus treatments, famously swarmed into the WTC wreckage to give dying victims those bogus treatments (while doing all it could to keep the real rescue workers at bay), and on and on and on. Whatever your issues with the Catholic church, you can't accuse it of any one of those things, let alone all of them combined.

    So what does it take?

    What do you define as harm?

    See above.
  3. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    Complete and utter nonsense. Besides, the cardinal claimed that condoms provided *no* protection, which is completely incorrect, and probably resulted in the spread of AIDS.

    Harmful - no?

    I totally disagree. He's supposed to be the direct link with God himself.

    If people don't "follow" him then why to millions of people squeeze into that square in the vactican to worship him ?

    Why when he goes on tour in the Popemobile do millions of people line the streets just for a glipse?

    I think you'll find he is "followed".


    You are completely missing my point. I'd argue that all religion is "bad", which includes Scientology and christianity.

    I'm just pointing out that the criteria you use for saying that Scientology isn't a religion are flawed, and the arguements you use against Scientology and calling it "bad" could be thrust upon most other religions.


    Islam and christianity have both been guilty of all of those.


    A bit like Evangelists then ?


    I have no issues with the catholic church - stop putting words into my mouth. You need to stop defending your religion and be more tolerant of the religions of others.
  4. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    My religion? I haven't had one for a decade now, and I'll happily wager that I've had more unpleasant firsthand experiences with Christianity than you have. That said, Scientology's practices are several orders of magnitude more cruel and insidious than those of any other "religion" you could name.

    I'd argue that all religion is "bad", which includes Scientology and christianity.

    I'm just pointing out that the criteria you use for saying that Scientology isn't a religion are flawed, and the arguements you use against Scientology and calling it "bad" could be thrust upon most other religions.


    Not to anywhere near the same degree, and we both know it.

    We've got a "religion" that enslaves children, sucks away all the money of all its followers, forbids its members from leaving, stalks, harasses and blackmails those who manage to escape (after physically forcing them to reveal every detail of their personal lives), sues and threatens opponents into ruin...

    Islam and christianity have both been guilty of all of those.


    Islam I can't say much about, but Christianity? Today? Christianity blackmails people who try to move on? Christianity enslaves children, and sucks away all their parents' money? Christianity physically forces you to give up all your secrets? Sends endless harassing phone calls and legal threats if you try to leave? Christianity has plenty of black marks on its record, to be sure, but are you holding all Christian churches today accountable for what happened in some parts of Europe centuries ago? Scientology does all these things and more, everywhere it goes, every day, today.

    Charges desperate patients ridiculous amounts of money for bogus treatments

    A bit like Evangelists then ?


    A bit, but even Evangelists (who in no way represent even a sizable fraction of Christianity) don't charge you all your money for the rest of your life or force you to sign "billion year contracts" of servitude. By the way, you conveniently left out the bit about the World Trade Center. If that's not enough to convince you that Scientology is worse than any other "religious" group out there, then again?what would?

    Modern Christianity's practices are sometimes questionable. Scientology's practices are unquestionably monstrous. If you want to call Christianity bad, fine?but realize that Scientology is many times worse, any way you slice it, and if you don't believe that, then you need to learn more about Scientology.
  5. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    again, stop putting words into my mouth - I am not saying that Christianity is bad, I'm just pointing out that your reasoning doesn't stand up.

    Nor I am saying that Scientology is legitamate, or better or worse than any other religion.

    I'm simply saying you can't dismiss it using the criteria that you are.



    Not to anywhere near the same degree, and we both know it.

    I agree - Christianity has harmed far far more people than Scientology has.



    Christianity enslaves children, and sucks away all their parents' money? Christianity physically forces you to give up all your secrets? Sends endless harassing phone calls and legal threats if you try to leave?

    Yes, as seen in aspects of the LDS and Jehovah's Witness churches.



    famously swarmed into the WTC wreckage

    I didn't think this was worth mentioning. Fire and medical staff far far outnumbered the number of scientologists down there, so I think your comment is slightly inaccurate.
  6. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    What would it take to convince you that Scientology is bad? We've got a "religion" that enslaves children, sucks away all the money of all its followers, forbids its members from leaving, stalks, harasses and blackmails those who manage to escape (after physically forcing them to reveal every detail of their personal lives), sues and threatens opponents into ruin, charges desperate patients ridiculous amounts of money for bogus treatments, famously swarmed into the WTC wreckage to give dying victims those bogus treatments (while doing all it could to keep the real rescue workers at bay), and on and on and on. Whatever your issues with the Catholic church, you can't accuse it of any one of those things, let alone all of them combined.


    Sounds like a religion to me.
  7. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    True. Scientology as a religion is not any worse a religion than many others that we tolerate in the name of religious liberty. It's certainly no worse than Christianity, for any of the reasons mentioned.

    However, the Church of Scientology as an organization seems to systematically engage in a number of practices that are criminal, and conceivably could be covered under things like RICO. As much as the CoS represents the vast majority of practicing Scientologists, there are the "free zone" Scientologists who practice Scientology while rejecting the hierarchy of the church (and who are persecuted by the Church for doing so), so it's clear that it's possible to separate the doctrine (which is inane and destructive, but we don't stop people from believing equally inane and destructive things) from the organization (which is comparable to an organized crime syndicate).

    I'm in favor of shutting down the organization and bringing the leaders up on charges for their criminal behavior where appropriate, but leaving those who want to read Dianetics and hold a pair of aluminum cans hooked up to a potato clock while talking about their problems alone. If someone else wants to organize another Scientologist organization after that, they're free to do so.

    If you catch the local Baptist minister beating his children and cheating on his taxes, you shut him down but you don't outlaw Baptist preaching, no matter how stupid it is or how much harm comes to those who believe it.
  8. GrandAdmiralThrawn66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 1

    Complete and utter nonsense. Besides, the cardinal claimed that condoms provided *no* protection, which is completely incorrect, and probably resulted in the spread of AIDS.

    Harmful - no?

    Well I agree that that is harmful, just because one Cardinal said something wrong doesnt mean the entire religion is agreeing with it.






    I totally disagree. He's supposed to be the direct link with God himself.

    If people don't "follow" him then why to millions of people squeeze into that square in the vactican to worship him ?

    Why when he goes on tour in the Popemobile do millions of people line the streets just for a glipse?

    I think you'll find he is "followed".


    Hes respected as a religious man and many people believe that say for instance John Paul 2 is at the side of God now, BUT he is not Worshiped, merely seen as a holy man who stands for what those people believe, there is a difference



  9. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I totally disagree. He's supposed to be the direct link with God himself.

    malkie, that's simply not true. in fact, now I think you're just playing devi's advocate because you're so far off base. Please show me something in Catholic teaching that says a pope is supposed to be a direct link with anyone, let alone God himself. the pope is just a man, and not a direct link with God.

    If people don't "follow" him then why to millions of people squeeze into that square in the vactican to worship him ?

    they're not worshipping him, and again I think you're just playing DA here (perhaps in more ways than one ;)). he's greatly respected, and many catholics look up to him for guidance and leadership. but, he's not worshipped. people around the world rush to catch a glimpse of celebrities and public figures, and i'm certain they're not being worshipped in a religious sense.

    so, in short, please cite some actual teachings to show where you're getting these ideas from.
  10. Silmarillion Manager Emerita/Ex RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 1999
    star 6
    Doesn't it say something about divine guidance in the catholic catechism? It's been a while since I read it!
  11. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    not in the sense that God tells a pope what to do/think/say, and likewise from a pope to the rest of catholicism. it's a contrast to the LDS church, where the president is considered a prophet capable of receiving divine revelation from God. no such thing is true in catholicism.
  12. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Actually, the LDS church does not make legal threats against people who choose to leave the church. They have, however, sued people who have done such things as reproduced church copyrighted materials (such as the Church's Handbook of Instruction, which an anti-Mormon site attempted to reproduce in full), or attempted to sell temple recommends on eBay (the recommends themselves clearly state on them that they remain the property of the Church, and must be surrendered upon request by an authorized representative of the Church).

    As for "endless harassing phone calls", I can't speak one way or the other about that. A lot depends on how "harassing" is defined. Some people consider a single phone call to be "harassing". Others consider a pair of missionaries knocking on the door to be "harassing". Neither is considered harassment under the law.

    At the same time, the Church has a very clear policy for how you can have your name removed from the Church's records. While there have been some cases where an individual church leader has not fully complied with that policy, that doesn't mean that the Church itself is at fault, any more than the Catholic Church is at fault if an individual priest molests boys.

    Kimball Kinnison
  13. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Well, that's not a great argument Kimball, because the Catholic Church does bear some responsibility for the priest/molestation scandels. Time after time we've seen that the Church helped enable predators to get their hands on children, so I don't know how that correlates back to the Mormons, (or scientology), but I wanted to bring that up.
  14. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    A priest molesting boys is specifically against Catholic teachings and policy. It is mostly in the coverups that the Catholic Church bears some responsibility.

    That is completely different from the Church bearing responsibility for the actual molestations. That responsibility lies with the priest involved alone. In the same way, a bishop or branch president who violates Church policy is solely responsible for those actions.

    Kimball Kinnison
  15. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    No freakin way. If a school knowingly hires a child molester/rapist as a teacher, and knowingly puts that teacher in the unsupervised company of children, that that school is liable for the molestation and bears fault, certainly civil liability, perhaps even criminal negligence.

    The priest himself is responsible for his own actions. But the church is ALSO responsible for turning a blind eye to the accusations, not just for the cover-ups, but for the enabling way in which the cover-up helped the priest run from past crimes, move to a new place, and commit new crimes. Once the church is aware they have a dangerous person in their clergy, every time they help them escape legal trouble, every time they put that priest in a new town with new victims, the church is responsible (I mean, sure, the priest is too, but that doesn't absolve the Church.)
  16. Espaldapalabras Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2005
    star 5
    Christianity enslaves children, and sucks away all their parents' money? Christianity physically forces you to give up all your secrets? Sends endless harassing phone calls and legal threats if you try to leave?

    Yes, as seen in aspects of the LDS and Jehovah's Witness churches.


    Wow. I thought I disagreed with Malkie before, but I think I have reached a new level of disgust. You mind substantiating any of your claims? These churches do not enslave children or take any more than 10% of ones income, do not physically force ANYTHING, and while if you quit comming to church you might have someone visit you every month, if you ask to have your name removed from the church records you will never have anyone come after you, although a few hapless missionaries might run into on the street or something.

    Now to speak on the general subject, I don't think it is fair to compare the worst of relgions. Nobody denies that bad people have done bad things in the name of religion, but most real relgions have done FAR more good in this world than bad. I respect all world relgions, be it other Christian sects, Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, Shinto, Confusianism, Buddhism and even Zoroastrianism. They all have good and help people lead better lives. There is a difference between relgions and cults. Scientology is a borderline cult.
  17. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    OWM,

    the entire point of an analogy is that it illustrates. It is never a perfect fit (if it were, it would be the exact situation under discussion).

    At least for the first offense, a Catholic priest who molests a child bears sole responsibility for his actions. Those actions are contrary to church policies and doctrines. Once it is made known to the church, then you can start claiming that they have some responsibility.

    HOWEVER, that is outside of the scope of my analogy. The Catholic Church bears no responsibility if a priest molests a child (only if it had previous knowledge of such actions). In the same way, the LDS Church bears no responsibility if an individual local leader violates Church policy. In both cases, it is the responsibility of the individual alone.

    Kimball Kinnison
  18. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    You say you disagree with me, yet go on to agree with my claims. KK did something similar too.

  19. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    And I would like you to justify such a caustic accusation. I'm pretty sure you have no clue about JW's, because nothing what you claim is the least bit accurate in any aspect.
  20. Espaldapalabras Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2005
    star 5
    That is about as bad a faulty analogy as you can get. It's like comparing parents who spank their children to child molestors and if you can't see the difference you are even more far gone than I thought.

  21. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Except I didn't go on to agree with you.

    The only two examples I gave that even come close to "agreeing" with you are a rather major stretch. The temple recommends remain church property, and so someone trying to sell them on eBay (or anywhere else) has no more right to sell it than you are legally allowed to sell your work ID/security badge.

    As for the copyrights, that's not making legal threats because someone is leaving the Church. It's protecting the valid copyrights against infringement. Just because someone is a former member of the Church doesn't give them the right to infringe on the Church's copyrights. (In fact, the Church would file a suit against a member who infringes those copyrights.)

    The Church does not make legal threats against those who leave the Church. They make legal threats against those who infringe the Church's copyrights, or those who seek to appropriate the Church's property. The Church does not force people to give up all of their money. It asks that members give 10% of their income (and even then, it is purely an honor system). It does not harass people who have left the Church (although some people claim that a single call or door visit is harassment).

    You could only make such claims if you completely distort the facts.

    Kimball Kinnison
  22. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Who pays for these things, KK?
  23. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    The Church and the members who are still there. It's like being in a company if you are fired or quit there are things you can not do Ie take things that do not belong to you.

    I totally disagree. He's supposed to be the direct link with God himself.

    No that would be the Bible. the Catholic Church is part of the the religion of Christianity. They just have the Pope. But in all of Christianity the main link to God and Jesus is the Bible.

  24. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    If they're personally paid for, though, then it's their property, even if it is 'issued'.
  25. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Yes if they paid for it. But let's go with that. But let's say I lost my time badge and I have to buy a new one. Sure I they will issue me another one. But it is still the property of the the company.

    Just like with in the Church becaue one thing is the Church does not force you to give your money. If you want to you give what you can, and well you may have gave money that when to something with in the Church it is still the property of the Church and those that are still members. Does not mean you can't go back there. But they don't want you take things that do not belong to you.

    Ie Thou shell not steal.
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