Speculation What Changed to Prompt Lucas to Outline an ST?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by LunarMoth, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    I cant help but to feel like Lucas began to insert things into the PT that would set up elements of the ST. If correct, The Clone Wars and Disney deal are way to recent to have been motivating factors as far the actual ideas for the ST, or intention to do one. Perhaps the Disney deal was a factor in actually getting them done.

    I believe that during the pre-production phase of Ep. II, Lucas got the ST itch. I say this because I expect something related to Syfo-Dias could very well come into play in the ST. The next clue to me is inserting Anakin into ROTJ for the DVD release. It seems to serve no other purpose than to hold the door open for Anakin to appear later in a form familiar to the audience, both old and new. Then moving to Ep III, the placement of Darth Plagueis seems just subtle enough to leave the door open for a Sith return after Palpatine and Vader are gone. I'm not saying Plagueis himself will be in the ST, but something related to this seems likely to me. I'm also not saying he won't be in the ST........ What I am saying is that I see these things as setting up elements of the ST that will span across both previous trilogies, which is necessary if the ST is truly a continuation of the story.

    If this is acturate, even partially, it would likely be because it was the only way to continue the story being as the redemption and death of Anakin Skywalker was always the intended end of the saga, be it in 9 or 12 episodes. This way, you are essentially setting up a scenario where someone is aware that the Force is out of balance, and that Anakin is to set that right. In order not to be destroyed in Anakin fullfilling the prophecy, one could be dead when it happens, but holds the key to returning after it's done.
  2. segask Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2002
    star 1
    I think it has already been discussed in the other threads about it, that the postponement of the rest of the 3D releases most likely was due to Fox still owning the distribution rights to eps. I - VI until the year 2020.
  3. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    I'm sorry, but I just haven't seen any evidence that the ST itch goes back as far as Episode II. That's a terribly big leap to make on just one's personal supposition - i.e., you expect to see connections in the ST story to, say, Sifo-Dyas or Darth Plagueis, when we have no idea that such connections will be there, and every indication that those threads of the story have already been closed off. Everything I've read and observed, particularly from Steven Sansweet, points to Lucas arriving at a way to write the outline for what we will come to know as the ST during the production of TCW (I would say somewhere between the second and fourth seasons), and not before, so it can't date back all the way to 2001-2002.
  4. BlenderWars Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 20, 2013
    star 1
    Look Star Wars is huge brand which needs to be under full control at all time.

    That United Nations education programme, Disney and George Lucas are playing for the same team anyways.
  5. The Hellhammer Grand Judicator of the New Film Territories

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    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    ...the United Nations education programme? o_O
  6. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    We have an answer at last: the thing that prompted Lucas to outline a Sequel Trilogy was the black UN helicopters. 8-}
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  7. BlenderWars Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 20, 2013
    star 1
    I was just fooling around with you guys.

    It worked.
    Last edited by BlenderWars, Feb 21, 2013
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  8. The Hellhammer Grand Judicator of the New Film Territories

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    Sometimes people here suggest the wildest things with utmost conviction and seriousness.

    It gets hard to tell the difference, after a while.
  9. BlenderWars Jedi Master

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    Feb 20, 2013
    star 1
  10. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    I think you are mis-understanding what I am saying a bit.....

    Certainly I have no idea what will be in the ST, just as nobody else here does. What I am saying is that in speculating, I look at the films. First, the Syfo-Dias thing is the biggest stretch in my examples, I'll give you that. :)
    But the main point of my examples was to show tha possibility, as well as my opinion, as to what may have happened to prompt the production of the ST. Let's say for a second that these examples turn out to be correct. If thats the case, then I will have turned out to be correct. If they turned out to be correct, it would also make sense in the story. I think there was a need to create something that would allow the story to continue without profoundly changing what has already happened.

    Do I know they are correct? No. I think they are possible, and wouldnt be surprised if more than one element turns out to happen.

    At the same time, your interpretation of things leads you to think otherwise, which is equally as valid.

    At the same same time..... Perhaps my examples were not intended the way I present them here, but during the production of The Clone Wars, Lucas noticed the same thing I did and saw that it would work. Then we would both be right!

    Yay! :cool:

    Whatever happened, happened, am I'm just glad it did!
    Last edited by LunarMoth, Feb 21, 2013
  11. Redfivee Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2008
    star 2
    I think 2 things made GL want to hand SW over for more movies.First thing would be AVATAR.I remember a second hand comment by GL or Cameron saying the only thing that could beat Avatar in BO is a new SW and imagine what they could do now.Something to that effect.Then Second is TCW.The more Clone Wars we got as fans and they made the more we/they wanted.So IMO both Avatar and TCW is the reason for the new SW movies.
    Last edited by Redfivee, Feb 21, 2013
  12. The Umpire Strokes Bach Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2012
    So certain are you. Here's a little slip of George's tongue in an article from the day before the release of Episode II.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2002/may/15/news.seanclarke
    I would personally consider this pretty strong evidence of an ST itch going back as far as 2002. YMMV.

    Also, in the archival interview commentary from the Episode II Blu-ray, George says:
    I would contend that Lucas very much considered the PT as the first act of the Saga and that he very deliberately was "laying pipe" all throughout it. He just wasn't going to go blabbing about that when he was still only halfway through those films. Why would he? Anyways, he is clearly quite a shrewd and methodical man that people constantly underestimate and assume all his intentions are easily surmised by whatever he or his massive PR machine happens to be proclaiming at one point or another. On that end I've always enjoyed this quote from the extensive Episode III interview in Vanity Fair:
    So in the end I don't think anything really changed to prompt Lucas to outline an ST, just that his exact plans on how exactly his company would go about mounting such a production changed - i.e., his "retiring", Kathleen Kennedy being handed the reins, the sale to Disney, etc...

    So yeah, Darth Plagueis comin' at ya in 2015. [face_beatup]
    Last edited by THE UMPIRE STROKES BACH, Feb 21, 2013
  13. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    Please. That little incident you mention has been utterly blown out of proportion. One accident of the tongue in one interview hardly constitutes firm evidence, especially when he's mentioning that it'll be a six-part story in almost the same breath, and particularly when he's been far more strident in interviews, taken more recently than that one, that there would not be a Sequel Trilogy. If this proves anything, it's that going by what Lucas says in interviews is about as reliable as going by what his PR machine proclaims.

    And "underestimate" Lucas? The man's made some mighty poor decisions in his career for someone that's so shrewd and not to be underestimated. We're talking about the man who produced Howard the Duck as well as The Empire Strikes Back. He's not perfect, not even close to it. He's only a human being with all the limitations and character flaws of human beings, and so it's pointless to rely on his supposed shrewdness for a hint to when he got the ST itch. Red Tails pretty much established that, if anything, one can overestimate what the man's capable of, not underestimate him.

    So yeah, Darth Plagueis stayin' dead in 2015. [face_bleh]
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  14. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    George is to [IMG]

    As to what the Creator of the Universe is to
    [IMG]

    :p
  15. GunganSlayer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2013
    star 2
    ugh, take those horrid covers away from here, away! With all the beautiful Star Wars art that's been done over the years, they dared insult us with that photoshop bs. Ugh. I seriously can't stand looking at those covers.
  16. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    You and I are in complete agreement.
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  17. The Umpire Strokes Bach Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Where has that little incident been blown out of proportion exactly? I only know of my posting the link in another thread. Please point me to wherever this proportion blowing may be and I'll be happy to check it out. Oh, and I did read your theory about Lucas' bad year and for the most part I agree (that was some serious shaming for him and his company that year), just not about when he decided to outline the ST.

    Also, I never said he was perfect, just that he's underestimated constantly. As you are doing when you think you can exactly predict the whens and the whys of his thought processes based upon whatever you might have read from whichever source you need to believe in order to feel like any potential ST idea you don't like can't possibly be true. I feel that slip was indicative, at the very least, of the thought and idea (evidence of an itch as it were) of an ST as early as 2002, not as any sort of absolute proof. Sure he's been quite vocal about there being no ST in almost hundreds of interviews, and lookie here, there's gonna be a Sequel Trilogy after all. So your point is? You downplay his shrewdness to rely on your own personal investigations of the statements of Steve Sansweet? Please, yourself.

    But whatever, it seems quite clear to me now that you have your beliefs about all this pretty firmly rooted, so yeah, Pfluegermeister dining on a massive plate of crow in 2015. [face_peace]
    Last edited by THE UMPIRE STROKES BACH, Feb 21, 2013
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  18. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    While I disagree with a lot of what Lucas did with the PT and onwards, I feel that the fanbase may have gotten a little too carried away with their bashing of him. He's an entertainer and I respect him immensely for creating one of the most innovative franchises in movie history.
  19. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    Which is different from what you're doing in exactly what way? :p

    Well, if we're going to be completely honest, I think we can fairly say that he's had the thought and idea of a Sequel Trilogy as early as 1978. He's always been carrying around at least that much for at least that long, and we know that because he's been talking about the 9-film or even 12-film scenario since then (and we have the testimony of others to corroborate it, people who would have no reason to lie about what in 1978 would have been a trivial matter in comparison to the there-and-then issues of getting Empire ready). But though the title of the thread mentions the specific outline that became part of the Disney deal, and which Michael Arndt is now expanding on, this thread isn't about when he had the thought and idea for the ST; it's about when he decided he should in fact pull the trigger and back up his thoughts with action. In other words, considering that he's had the idea in the back of his mind for thirty years, why go with it now? Why not five years ago, or five years from now? What was the actual determining factor that decided things?

    That's why I can't go with your citing that interview as proof that he was thinking of making the ST a reality as we now understand it as early as 2002; and there's a purpose to my emphasis there. The ST as he then understood it, the one Lucas was then thinking about, must be considered separate and apart from what we are going to finally see, the ST as we now understand it, the one Arndt will write for Abrams to direct. I'm sure he did have some handwritten notes on it in 2002, I'll be happy to give you that much, but in all likelihood they were the same handwritten notes on the same yellow notebook paper he'd carried about since he first came up with the idea, perhaps with some additions since then to account for the passage of time. Prior to writing the Prequel Trilogy, according to Lucas, he had about five or six pages of notes relating to PT material tops, and I can't imagine that he had all that much more material, if he even had the same amount, for the ST, particularly when he said in interviews that he had less of an idea about what it would be than he had the PT. And we all know from experience that what can be gleaned from a few pages of notes can, and often is, substantially different than what finally ends up on the screen; the PT is proof of that.

    As for following Sansweet over Lucas, that's not really what I've been doing. As you say, Lucas says one thing and does something different quite often (let's just say he changes his mind a lot), so even though, like you, I can and do cite his words to indicate his thoughts, I don't take them to mean what he thinks on a long-term or permanent basis; I take them to mean what he thinks at that time only. That's what most people do, speak what they think at the time they're speaking, not speak in terms of what they think they'll be thinking at some unspecified point in the future from when they spoke. For that reason, I took him at his word when he was talking about doing more films, and I also took him at his word when he later said there would not be any more - because I believe he did mean it when he said it, even though he may not have meant it a year from then (it's also why I took such grave offense when he began his Red Tails racism debate; because I have to assume he meant what he said, and if he didn't it makes him an even worse person than it does if he meant it). That's a fair indicator of his thought process, but only on a moment-by-moment basis, not for long-term planning.

    When it comes to long-term, I don't follow words; I follow actions. You mention my "terrible year" scenario in largely positive terms, but if that theory is any good at all (and in fact it may not be, but I currently have no reason to believe otherwise), it's because I observed actions primarily, not words, and in that scenario the actions were fairly obvious and spoke volumes. When I do use someone's words, I ask myself: does the person speaking have a reason to not mean what he's saying? Sansweet said what he said to the ForceCast gang (later to become the Rebel Force Radio gang), and as I carefully listened to what he was saying, his inflection and tone, it was clear to me that he was not lying when he said that it was the fun he was having on TCW that reignited George's creative juices to the point where he could put some skin on his bare-bones ST notes and create a proper outline for sale. He simply had no reason to lie about what to him would have been a rather trivial thing, particularly when he was borne out on everything else in that interview, which largely concerned the mechanics and timetable of the Disney purchase. He certainly wasn't protecting his job or income; he had just retired from LFL when they asked him to come back, so what purpose would have been served in his lying about it? What did he have to gain from saying it was during the TCW period that Lucas decided to pull the trigger, if in fact he did so earlier? How does that protect any state secrets?

    So yeah, Pfluegermeister sendin' it back to The Umpire Strokes Bach and lookin' forward to his comments. ;)
  20. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Steranko, "George Lucas", Prevue #42, September–October 1980
  21. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    It seems a little tidbit of data we can add to the discussion has just arrived. Sam Witwer recently gave an interview for IGN, in which he was asked what he knew and when concerning Episode VII. Of particular relevance to us here is the following exchange (edited for clarity):

    So Witwer knew that something was up at LFL "maybe eight months" before the 30 October 2012 announcement, though what that exactly was, he did not know; I'll grant that one can get too literal with such things, but let's say he meant approximately between seven and eight months - that works out to, at the earliest, mid-to-late February 2012, and at the latest, late March 2012, two or more months after the release of Red Tails and three or four months prior to the announcement of Kathleen Kennedy's hiring as Lucas' eventual replacement. Factoring in the time it would likely take for information of this sort to filter down through the LFL grapevine to someone in a position to pass hints of it to Witwer, we can now be relatively certain of the following: whenever the decision was firmly made to go forward with the Sequel Trilogy, it occured prior to the period of February-March 2012.
  22. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    LunarMoth:
    Actually, that wasn't always the case. The Star Wars story wasn't always supposed to be the story of Anakin Skywalker and wasn't always supposed to end with RotJ. In fact, in a Lucas interview in Vanity Fair in February, 2005 , it says, "Taken as a whole, the six Star Wars movies form the biography of Darth Vader--- something Lucas claims he wasn't consciously aware of until 1998. It's strange to think that this filmmaker with a popcorn reputation has spent 33 years telling the story of a failed, pathetic, monster who isn't redeemed until his last few breaths."

    So, if Lucas wasn't aware of the films being basically about Darth Vader until 1998, it certainly couldn't have been originally planned to be Anakin's story. Also, the original Star Wars novel's title was: Star Wars, From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker, not Anakin Skywalker.

    Then too, there is an interview between Lucas and the author of The Making of the Empire Strikes Back, (which was written during the filming of that movie), in which Lucas said that he had plans for nine films already at that time. That book would have been written in 1979, so Lucas already had some plans for what would happen in a Sequel Trilogy after RotJ at that time . Now, it's very possible that he might have changed his mind about what would happen after RotJ, but the point is that George Lucas has had story ideas for a Sequel Trilogy since at least 1979.

    But after the PT, he apparently scrapped plans to film a sequel trilogy, and instead, declared that the six films were the "completed" saga. Now, Lucas has decided he wants to film that sequel trilogy and continue his story after all. But it's likely that now the story won't be Anakin's story anymore, but what it was probably supposed to be all along: the Skywalker Saga with maybe now a third generation of Skywalkers as well.
  23. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    I agree that people shouldn't take Lucas at his word to much. The guy has been going on about doing small independent films since the early 80's :p

    Besides which if people are bringing up quotes from back then, at the time didn't he say that for the back story ie the PT, his only idea was that Yoda fights or something like that. It's been awhile since I read it though.

    I should say the Clone Wars show is good fun that the whole family enjoy and it seems to have Lucas at what he is best an ideas man bouncing with a good team who are not afraid to say if they think it's a bad idea now and again. Contrast that with how McCullum came across on the PT commentaries and making off Docs and it's fairly obvious, which works best with Lucas.
  24. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Lucas considered the PT the "backstory" - HIS WORDS, not mine - up until marketing for the PT went into effect. Then he changed it to the Tragedy of Darth Vader to promote the films. Remember, Vader wasn't initially Luke's father and wasn't redeemed until later drafts of RotJ, telling you that the Saga wasn't about Anakin regardless of what Lucas said while promoting the PT.

    He needed to promote it that way, he couldn't promote blockbuster movies as "the backstory."

    It simply looks as though George decided to make the Saga the way he initially planned post SW and pre-TESB, which was not as the Tragedy of Darth Vader.
  25. Bobatron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    Anyone who writes knows the nagging thoughts of continuing the lives of characters and worlds created.
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