Speculation What Changed to Prompt Lucas to Outline an ST?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by LunarMoth, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. General Immodet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    I think money prompt Lucas to outline a ST.
  2. ForceJumpAnakin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2006
    star 3
    Maybe he felt bad after adding the "noooo" to ROTJ Vader, and wants to make it up to the fans.
  3. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    To continue this thought, I-VI shows the Rise, Fall, and Redemption of Anakin, completing his arc.

    The arc for IV-IX is Luke's Hero's Journey, which is only half finished with IV-VI. George probably wanted to finish Luke's story.

    Green indicates the completed portion of Luke's journey, red indicates incomplete portions of the journey that could serve as the guide for VII-IX.
    The 17 Stages of the Hero's Journey
    Last edited by T-R-, Feb 22, 2013
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  4. DarthBreezy Chosen One

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    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
  5. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
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    star 4
  6. run_luke_run Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2004
    star 3
    I'm honestly shocked so many of you would argue money.

    I would assume, like others have stated, that there were always ideas floating around in his brain that maybe he jotted down once...or pieces and parts to the story that now make sense somehow to fit it all together. Obviously we all know the story evolved greatly as it went from "initial idea" to "film"...and one or more of those ideas now makes sense to continue the arc.
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  7. Darth_Harmon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2005
    star 4
    Those final stages bring to mind the idea some fans have been floating about involving Luke attaining the power to cheat death. Pretty much being able to become one with the force, and return to the living world, as he pleases. Would be pretty crazy to see Luke entering the realm of the Force Ghosts and interacting with Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda in their realm. Sort of a Mortis or Deathly Hallows (Harry reunites with Dumbledore) scenario.

    Imagine if Luke dies in episode VII, and returns physically in episode IX?
  8. LunarMoth Force Ghost

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    Nov 27, 2012
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  9. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    I remember getting the ESB LP for X-mas 1980 and reading on it that SW was intended to be three trilogies. So at least at that point, it has been the plan. Then he got marital problems and more or less a breakdown from the insane pressure of making ROTJ, so he dropped the idea of the last trilogy - but it doesn't mean he stoped hoping for it! I think he was up and running again in the 90's when the renaissance the EU provided, showd SW wasn't dead - far from - but as he chose to do the first trilogy first and it god such a beating, he dropped the plans a second time. And I sure understand why - he's a creative person - not some steeled businessman even if he's showed finacial cunningness. I suppose that as SW lived on, and he himself got older, the idea that he could pass the torch to someone else started to form - and from that, the possibility of the ST being brought to life.

    But I also remember Hamill's stated that he was asked as far back as when filming ANH if he'd like to return in 30-40 years time to make a new trilogy. Lucas had added that it was, if he was old enough by then - and it would be a 'pass the torch role'. So in my optique, Lucas has outlined the ST from the beginning - he's just been playing with other possibilities too, as he's learned the hard way that making those trilogies is just too hard fro him.
  10. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Nail. Head. You hit it. Directly. No more discussion needed.

    In fact, I'd take it one step further: Disney would have bought Star Wars anyway. And then they would have started making their own films. By getting the ball rolling, Lucas could ensure some influence over the direction these films take.
  11. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Not so much shocked here as amused. He gave literally every last cent of that 4 billion to charity. :p
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  12. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Which one of these are implied by RotJ? Luke had just went through the last stages of INITIATION at the end of RotJ and hadn't had a chance to enter the RETURN phase.

    I own the book and read the book, but for for those that haven't, here is a summary of the RETURN phase. "The Crossing of the Return Threshold" sure sounds like George's description of the Sequel Trilogy involving "moral and philosophical problems, such as the necessity for moral choices and the wisdom needed to distinguish right from wrong, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned." Add in "Master of Two Worlds" and "Freedomto Live" and you have ONE HECK OF A TRILOGY.:

    Refusal of the Return
    Having found bliss and enlightenment in the other world, the hero may not want to return to the ordinary world to bestow the boon onto his fellow man.
    Campbell: "When the hero-quest has been accomplished, through penetration to the source, or through the grace of some male or female, human or animal, personification, the adventurer still must return with his life-transmuting trophy. The full round, the norm of the monomyth, requires that the hero shall now begin the labor of bringing the runes of wisdom, the Golden Fleece, or his sleeping princess, back into the kingdom of humanity, where the boon may redound to the renewing of the community, the nation, the planet or the ten thousand worlds. But the responsibility has been frequently refused. Even Gautama Buddha, after his triumph, doubted whether the message of realization could be communicated, and saints are reported to have died while in the supernal ecstasy. Numerous indeed are the heroes fabled to have taken up residence forever in the blessed isle of the unaging Goddess of Immortal Being."
    The Magic Flight

    Sometimes the hero must escape with the boon, if it is something that the gods have been jealously guarding. It can be just as adventurous and dangerous returning from the journey as it was to go on it.
    Campbell: "If the hero in his triumph wins the blessing of the goddess or the god and is then explicitly commissioned to return to the world with some elixir for the restoration of society, the final stage of his adventure is supported by all the powers of his supernatural patron. On the other hand, if the trophy has been attained against the opposition of its guardian, or if the hero's wish to return to the world has been resented by the gods or demons, then the last stage of the mythological round becomes a lively, often comical, pursuit. This flight may be complicated by marvels of magical obstruction and evasion." [14]
    Classic examples: In many fairy tales and folktales, it is literally a magic flight, such as in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, with the hero or heroine transforming objects to stop the pursuit (The Master Maid, The Water Nixie) or transforming himself and any companions to hide themselves (Farmer Weathersky or Foundling-Bird).
    Rescue from Without

    Just as the hero may need guides and assistants to set out on the quest, oftentimes he or she must have powerful guides and rescuers to bring them back to everyday life, especially if the person has been wounded or weakened by the experience.
    Campbell: "The hero may have to be brought back from his supernatural adventure by assistance from without. That is to say, the world may have to come and get him. For the bliss of the deep abode is not lightly abandoned in favor of the self-scattering of the wakened state. 'Who having cast off the world,' we read, 'would desire to return again? He would be only there.' And yet, in so far as one is alive, life will call. Society is jealous of those who remain away from it, and will come knocking at the door. If the hero. . . is unwilling, the disturber suffers an ugly shock; but on the other hand, if the summoned one is only delayed—sealed in by the beatitude of the state of perfect being (which resembles death)—an apparent rescue is effected, and the adventurer returns." [15]
    The Crossing of the Return Threshold

    The trick in returning is to retain the wisdom gained on the quest, to integrate that wisdom into a human life, and then maybe figure out how to share the wisdom with the rest of the world.
    Campbell: "The returning hero, to complete his adventure, must survive the impact of the world. Many failures attest to the difficulties of this life-affirmative threshold. The first problem of the returning hero is to accept as real, after an experience of the soul-satisfying vision of fulfillment, the passing joys and sorrows, banalities and noisy obscenities of life. Why re-enter such a world? Why attempt to make plausible, or even interesting, to men and women consumed with passion, the experience of transcendental bliss? As dreams that were momentous by night may seem simply silly in the light of day, so the poet and the prophet can discover themselves playing the idiot before a jury of sober eyes. The easy thing is to commit the whole community to the devil and retire again into the heavenly rock dwelling, close the door, and make it fast. But if some spiritual obstetrician has drawn the shimenawa across the retreat, then the work of representing eternity in time, and perceiving in time eternity, cannot be avoided" The hero returns to the world of common day and must accept it as real.[16]
    Master of Two Worlds

    This step is usually represented by a transcendental hero like Jesus or Gautama Buddha. For a human hero, it may mean achieving a balance between the material and spiritual. The person has become comfortable and competent in both the inner and outer worlds.
    Campbell: "Freedom to pass back and forth across the world division, from the perspective of the apparitions of time to that of the causal deep and back—not contaminating the principles of the one with those of the other, yet permitting the mind to know the one by virtue of the other—is the talent of the master. The Cosmic Dancer, declares Nietzsche, does not rest heavily in a single spot, but gaily, lightly, turns and leaps from one position to another. It is possible to speak from only one point at a time, but that does not invalidate the insights of the rest. The individual, through prolonged psychological disciplines, gives up completely all attachment to his personal limitations, idiosyncrasies, hopes and fears, no longer resists the self-annihilation that is prerequisite to rebirth in the realization of truth, and so becomes ripe, at last, for the great at-one-ment. His personal ambitions being totally dissolved, he no longer tries to live but willingly relaxes to whatever may come to pass in him; he becomes, that is to say, an anonymity."[17]
    Biblical application: In the Christ story, Jesus is able to return to the ordinary world after resurrection.
    Freedom to Live

    Mastery leads to freedom from the fear of death, which in turn is the freedom to live. This is sometimes referred to as living in the moment, neither anticipating the future nor regretting the past.
    Campbell: "The hero is the champion of things becoming, not of things become, because he is. 'Before Abraham was, I AM.' He does not mistake apparent changelessness in time for the permanence of Being, nor is he fearful of the next moment (or of the 'other thing'), as destroying the permanent with its change. 'Nothing retains its own form; but Nature, the greater renewer, ever makes up forms from forms. Be sure there's nothing perishes in the whole universe; it does but vary and renew its form.' Thus the next moment is permitted to come to pass." [18]
    Biblical application: Christ returns to the ordinary world after his resurrection, but not as an ordinary man. He can seem to be as others are and interact with them, but his body is a "glorified" body, capable of assuming visible and palpable form, but freed from the bonds of space and time. He is now able to give life to others through his own death and resurrection. Other traditional examples of something similar are Elijah, Enoch, and Khidr, the "immortal prophet" of the Sufis.
    Last edited by T-R-, Feb 22, 2013
  13. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    Because the prequels were harshly criticized by critics and fans alike and George's ego can't take it so he sold the company to Disney in order to keep his employees with jobs while he can walk away with his tail between his legs and forget about being called a bad writer/director/producer. There, I said it.

    http://movies.msn.com/paralleluniverse/george-lucas-talks-star-wars-critics/story/feature/

    http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...-wars-movies-grumbling-fans-article-1.1008201

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/george-lucas-star-wars-red-tails-282905

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/...rs-fanboys-and-george-lucass-obsessive-vision
  14. DiditAllForTheWookie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2001
    star 1
    LOL! Ok guy.

    [IMG]
  15. Krueger Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2004
    star 4
    I think you're wrong, actually. Lucas didn't walk away with his tail between his legs. In a way, I think he's actually had the last laugh. If anything, he walked away with his head held high.
    Last edited by Krueger, Feb 22, 2013
  16. Miles Lodson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 1998
    star 3
    Think about this in the context of Yoda telling Luke to "pass on what he has learned."

    Refusal of the Return
    Having found bliss and enlightenment in the other world, the hero may not want to return to the ordinary world to bestow the boon onto his fellow man.
    Campbell: "When the hero-quest has been accomplished, through penetration to the source, or through the grace of some male or female, human or animal, personification, the adventurer still must return with his life-transmuting trophy. The full round, the norm of the monomyth, requires that the hero shall now begin the labor of bringing the runes of wisdom, the Golden Fleece, or his sleeping princess, back into the kingdom of humanity, where the boon may redound to the renewing of the community, the nation, the planet or the ten thousand worlds. But the responsibility has been frequently refused. Even Gautama Buddha, after his triumph, doubted whether the message of realization could be communicated, and saints are reported to have died while in the supernal ecstasy. Numerous indeed are the heroes fabled to have taken up residence forever in the blessed isle of the unaging Goddess of Immortal Being."
  17. Plebeian Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    Maybe he finally gave up on his plans for a live-action TV series.
  18. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    I just think he walked away rich. :)
  19. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    There is a difference between implied and carried out. Each of these elements could surely be argued has having been implied by the last few scenes of ROTJ. Implied in that we, the audience, could make a reasonable assumption that these elements would be the result of the conclusion of the film. I also made reference to the fact that in Campbell's work, that all elements are not required nor present in all stories, which would apply to the Refusal to Return element on the list that does not apply here.

    But since you asked, here is how the others could be argued as implied:

    Magic Flight: Luke drags his redeemed father onto the shuttle and flees the about to be destroyed Death Star, flying back to his friends with his personal part of the boon.

    Rescue from Without: Luke returns to his friends who helps him achieve his success, and they rejoice in victory, which implies they will be with him as he assimilates to the new life that will come from his accomplishments.

    The Crossing of the Return Threshold: This is what the Ghost scene represents. He is acknowleged by the spirits of Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Hayden Christiensen ;) , as having "done good" and can thus return to the world and pass on what he has learned.

    Master of Two Worlds: Luke is now a Jedi and part of a larger group of people he has grown to care for. Together they will move on for the greater good.

    Freedom to Live: The ability to retain ones identity after the death of their physical body is now something Luke knows to exist, thus he is freed from the fear of death, which in this element allows for the freedom to live. Once could reasonably assume that Luke will have this ability when the time comes simply because he is a Jedi Master post Anakins redemption, and exposed to the ability by Yoda, Obi, and Anakin.

    Again, these things, if not carried out in ROTJ, can reasonably be assumed to have happened as a result of the events of the film.

    I'm not saying they can't be applied to the story of the ST, because they probably will be, but like I said, one could argue......
    Last edited by LunarMoth, Feb 22, 2013
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  20. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    It's rather daft to say it was a critical failure when (1) the majority of reviews have been positive, and (2) it was better reviewed than the OT was when it came out.[/quote]
    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Feb 22, 2013
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  21. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    TBH I could kinda live without Luke doing a "Wessa going home" routine for Starwars.

    As for some of the others the question is asked how would they work in the Starwars universe for Luke, especially since some (not all) aspects have been used in the OT anyway.
  22. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Implied to happen in the FUTURE. i.e. ST, not implied to happen in the PRESENT, i.e. during RotJ. The same could be said about the Hero's Journey and ANH, most of the steps of INITIATION were implied to happen by the end of the film, but needed the rest of the OT to SHOW it happened. Same with the RETURN, the ST will show it happen.

    With all due respect, your examples do not match the steps described.

    Iagree that not all steps take place in all stories, but I suggets Luke's might include:

    Rescue from Without (Episode VII)Just as the hero may need guides and assistants to set out on the quest, oftentimes he or she must have powerful guides and rescuers to bring them back to everyday life, especially if the person has been wounded or weakened by the experience.
    Campbell: "The hero may have to be brought back from his supernatural adventure by assistance from without. That is to say, the world may have to come and get him. For the bliss of the deep abode is not lightly abandoned in favor of the self-scattering of the wakened state. 'Who having cast off the world,' we read, 'would desire to return again? He would be only there.' And yet, in so far as one is alive, life will call. Society is jealous of those who remain away from it, and will come knocking at the door. If the hero. . . is unwilling, the disturber suffers an ugly shock; but on the other hand, if the summoned one is only delayed—sealed in by the beatitude of the state of perfect being (which resembles death)—an apparent rescue is effected, and the adventurer returns." [15]
    The Crossing of the Return Threshold (Episode VIII)The trick in returning is to retain the wisdom gained on the quest, to integrate that wisdom into a human life, and then maybe figure out how to share the wisdom with the rest of the world.
    Campbell: "The returning hero, to complete his adventure, must survive the impact of the world. Many failures attest to the difficulties of this life-affirmative threshold. The first problem of the returning hero is to accept as real, after an experience of the soul-satisfying vision of fulfillment, the passing joys and sorrows, banalities and noisy obscenities of life. Why re-enter such a world? Why attempt to make plausible, or even interesting, to men and women consumed with passion, the experience of transcendental bliss? As dreams that were momentous by night may seem simply silly in the light of day, so the poet and the prophet can discover themselves playing the idiot before a jury of sober eyes. The easy thing is to commit the whole community to the devil and retire again into the heavenly rock dwelling, close the door, and make it fast. But if some spiritual obstetrician has drawn the shimenawa across the retreat, then the work of representing eternity in time, and perceiving in time eternity, cannot be avoided" The hero returns to the world of common day and must accept it as real.[16]
    Master of Two Worlds (Episode IX)This step is usually represented by a transcendental hero like Jesus or Gautama Buddha. For a human hero, it may mean achieving a balance between the material and spiritual. The person has become comfortable and competent in both the inner and outer worlds.
    Campbell: "Freedom to pass back and forth across the world division, from the perspective of the apparitions of time to that of the causal deep and back—not contaminating the principles of the one with those of the other, yet permitting the mind to know the one by virtue of the other—is the talent of the master. The Cosmic Dancer, declares Nietzsche, does not rest heavily in a single spot, but gaily, lightly, turns and leaps from one position to another. It is possible to speak from only one point at a time, but that does not invalidate the insights of the rest. The individual, through prolonged psychological disciplines, gives up completely all attachment to his personal limitations, idiosyncrasies, hopes and fears, no longer resists the self-annihilation that is prerequisite to rebirth in the realization of truth, and so becomes ripe, at last, for the great at-one-ment. His personal ambitions being totally dissolved, he no longer tries to live but willingly relaxes to whatever may come to pass in him; he becomes, that is to say, an anonymity."[17]
    Biblical application: In the Christ story, Jesus is able to return to the ordinary world after resurrection.
    Freedom to Live (Episode IX)Mastery leads to freedom from the fear of death, which in turn is the freedom to live. This is sometimes referred to as living in the moment, neither anticipating the future nor regretting the past.
    Campbell: "The hero is the champion of things becoming, not of things become, because he is. 'Before Abraham was, I AM.' He does not mistake apparent changelessness in time for the permanence of Being, nor is he fearful of the next moment (or of the 'other thing'), as destroying the permanent with its change. 'Nothing retains its own form; but Nature, the greater renewer, ever makes up forms from forms. Be sure there's nothing perishes in the whole universe; it does but vary and renew its form.' Thus the next moment is permitted to come to pass." [18]
    Biblical application: Christ returns to the ordinary world after his resurrection, but not as an ordinary man. He can seem to be as others are and interact with them, but his body is a "glorified" body, capable of assuming visible and palpable form, but freed from the bonds of space and time. He is now able to give life to others through his own death and resurrection. Other traditional examples of something similar are Elijah, Enoch, and Khidr, the "immortal prophet" of the Sufis.

    One HECK of a Trilogy and thus the answer to the original question as to why George decided to make the ST afterall.
  23. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    The argument "he wanted more money" makes very little sense. Even if we ignore the fact that he gave most (if not all) of it to charity, the guy has more than enough cash to last him two more lifetimes.

    I think it is the very simple thing of Lucas being aware that SW is his legacy, also being aware of it's cultural impact and of him wanting it to live on after him and introduce the new generations to concepts and values that are part of the SW myth.
    The theories of there being a "grand master plan" do sound interesting and thought-provoking, but in my view Lucas has said many contradictory things over the years and overall left the impression that he was mostly making it up as he went along. Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that's a bad thing. It turned out great, for the most part. Of course he had a larger picture in front of him and many detailed treatises that were never realised - but as far as ST is concerned, I think people maaay be reading a bit too much into it.
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  24. Boxster Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2005
    star 1
    I think he decided to sell Disney SW during the early stages and maybe Disney asked him to outline the story so they will continue the legacy, with part of him being involved.
  25. Lord TW Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 2
    Last night, we rewatched "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back," which, you may recall, cast both Carrie Fisherand Mark Hamill, in his classic role of "The C*ckblocker!" Chris Rock utters, "George Lucas is gonna sue somebody over this." I don't think he did, tho I'm sure they had permission to use his IP.

    Anyway, I don't think money or "his horrible year" motivated him. On money: it is fair to say DISNEY was motivated by money, but George has plenty and probably wants to retire. What is he, 70? On Failure: anyone who is successful in business learns from his or her mistakes, and moves on to the next opportunity. Over the years, lots of good ideas die on the vine, only to rise later, or get pushed down the product roadmap until the time is right. Some never happen.

    The ST was clearly somewhere on the roadmap all along. George IS savvy, as evidenced as far back as the original merchandising deal, and along the way he has played the PR game perfectly. He knows how to stay on point, he knows how many points to have, he knows how to tease, he knows how to be coy, etc. Having been heavily trained in corp comm, I assure you his behavior is purposeful. He probably has ten-page positioning docs to review before every interview or junket.

    What we call "failures" are either his learning experiences ("Howard the Duck" - which, BTW, was a hot comic property in 1984, but hampered on the publishing side by its own issues), or his pet projects in which he has earned the right to say whatever the heck he wants, critics aside ("Red Tails").
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