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PT What did Palpatine plan to use the treaty for in TPM?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by CaptainSuchandSuch, Apr 17, 2016.

  1. CaptainSuchandSuch

    CaptainSuchandSuch Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Palpatine's ultimate aim in the Naboo crisis was designed to expose the weakness and corruption in the Republic leadership and create sympathy for Naboo's situation so that Palpatine would be elected as chancellor.

    He ultimately achieved this through the Queen's vote of no confidence.

    However, at one point, it seems he had some other tactic planned. He had sent Darth Maul to Tatooine specifically to recapture the Queen and bring her back to Naboo to sign the treaty. The film also indicated that after she signed the treaty, it would have had to have been ratified by the senate next, which I can only assume would have also played some role in Palpatine's original scheme.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    The Jedi and Amidala forced him to rush certain things and adapt to others, which was a big risk. Had his original plan went through, his chances of being elected Chancellor would be much higher, he would have secured the loyalty of the Trade Federation (and possibly other corporations), Maul would still be alive, and he wouldn't have prolonged his terms (between TPM and AotC) as Chancellor so much.
     
  3. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Well one theory is that the blockade made Valorum seem weak because he couldn't put a stop to it. And add to this, TF taking control over Naboo, this would make him seem even weaker.

    So possibly, Palpatine could get one of his stooges in the senate to call for the vote and he gets elected.

    But questions,
    1) Would Palpatine even have a seat in the senate? If Naboo becomes part of the TF, wouldn't the Naboo seat go to them? Or they can put a new senator in his place?
    2) What does the TF get out of this? They are unhappy about some trade tax and have blockaded Naboo to force the senate to remove it. If Naboo becomes theirs, no more blockade and no leverage on the senate. How does controlling Naboo get rid of this new tax?


    @Alexrd

    I agree that Palpatine was forced to alter his plans and think on his feet, which he is very good at.
    But you seem to say that him becoming chancellor would have been some time after TPM in the original plan.
    What do you base that on? The invasion was accelerated yes but not by years. At most it seems that the time table was pushed forward by maybe a few weeks.
    The impression I got was that Palpatine got to be chancellor just a little bit sooner, maybe a month or so at most.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  4. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    TPM takes place in a few days. I'm assuming he would wait for Valorum's term to end, and until then gain more and more support in the senate with Naboo's suffering. Remember, having rushed everything and with Amidala in the capital to make a vote of no confidence, there were (at that moment) two more candidates for the Chancellor's position. I'm assuming that with his original plan, his election would be a certainty.
     
  5. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Well I interpreted the film much differently. I saw that Palpatine was creating a crisis to get himself elected into a position of power. His plot was accelerated yes but not by years, weeks at most I think.
    Also, where in the film does it say how long Valorum has left in his term? Say he has another two years. Will Palpatine wait that long? And if he waits that long, the Naboo crisis might be forgotten by then.
    Second, the Naboo were only suffering because Padme refused to sign the treaty and left. Had she done as they asked right away, which seemed to be the plan, there would be no need to hurt the Naboo. So their lives go on, only with the TF as their rulers. The TF control many worlds but the film said nothing that there was massive suffering on those worlds.
    Third, as I've said, would Palpatine even have a seat in the senate? With Naboo as a part of the TF, that seat would either be a part of Lott Dodd's seat or the TF will elect some puppet to speak for them in the senate.
    Fourth, there were two more candidates in TPM yes, but who is to say that there wouldn't be when Valorum's time in office ended? Why would Palpatine not face any other candidate then?

    No, I think Palpatine's plan was always to get rid of Valorum by making him seem weak in the face of a crisis. Having the senate be unable to deal with the blockade makes Valorum seem ineffective and powerless. When Naboo is "taken over" and Valorum is again unable to act, I think Palpatine can simply have one of his minions in the senate call for that vote and it will pass.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  6. True Sith

    True Sith Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 10, 2015
    It does get a little murky trying to figure out what everyone's original plans were. Palpatine's Plan A seems to be: create a crises, and force the signing of the treaty so the TF could occupy Naboo, making Valorum look bad. But see, it's the treaty that he's so concerned about that makes me think Palpatine's original plan covered a much longer time period. It's only when the Queen escapes that he completely changes his plan, and manipulates her into calling for a vote of no-confidence. If Valorum's term was ending soon, and Palpatine just needed a quick crisis shortly before the vote, why go to all that trouble of worrying about this treaty and making the invasion legal? He could've just had the TF occupy it for a while, without any treaty like in the film, and the effect would've been the same. It's not implied at all that Valorum's term is ending, so I don't think that's the case.
     
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  7. Defensor

    Defensor Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 2015

    I gather that the treaty was ultimately irrelevant to Palpatine once he got Amidala to call for a Vote of No Confidence. The treaty's original purpose is to make the Trade Federation's occupation on Naboo legal (since the head of state would have sanctioned it), and thus the Republic, (along with the Senate, the Chancellor, and the Jedi) would not be able to interfere.


    That's not how Parliamentarism works. The TF has a representative on the Senate, just like the British chartered corporations of old had representatives and spokesmen in the House of Commons. You don't become "part" of the TF: they are a company, not an Empire. "Systems controlled by the Trade Federation" means simply systems under their commercial influence, not that the TF represents them politically.

    The TF was assured by Palpatine that holding Naboo "hostage" would give the Senate the extra push to drop the tax. There's no explanation in the movie as to the specifics of that, but I'd say the few scenes showed give us plenty of possible options: perhaps Valorum was the one pushing for the tax, and he was weak and a political crisis in Naboo would break his resolve. Perhaps it would put political pressure on the Senate to resolve the matter and drop the tax. Perhaps it would drag out the proceedings with discussion and inspections, and the bureaucrats would bury the tax in the votings. You can choose one, two, or all of them to fill in the blanks.
     
  8. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
     
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  9. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    That's assuming everything would remain the same and he just set his plan in motion sooner. The plan was different, and the variables are different as well. The invasion would happen later. His attempt of weakening Valorum's position would take longer as well (Valorum was helping Palpatine/the Naboo by sending two Jedi in secret) since he wouldn't directly go against one of his "stronger supporters" in front of the senate. The actions of the TF would be for the remaning senators not under Sidious' influence to judge, and then he would have everyone on his side.

    I don't know if it would take weeks, months or years. My point is that it would take time. It wouldn't be immediate but its success would be certain.
     
  10. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    I always felt that the treaty meant nothing to Palpatine. It was a distraction, a red herring, smoke and mirrors, or whatever analogy works.

    It was a way to get everyone to look one way, while he was maneuvering the other way.

    What Palpatine has everyone doing is worrying about this treaty... the Trade Federation, the Naboo, The Senate, the Jedi etc etc. It allows him to maneuver in the Senate, with no one the wiser that the events are related.

    We have to remember that Palpatine has to play two different personalities, so each personalty has to have the perception that they have different goals. Palpatine the Senator, has the goal to become Chancellor to end the occupation of Naboo. However, as Sisious, he has to come across as wanting something else, that has nothing at all to do with what is going on in the Senate. So he has to convince the Trade Federation and every one else (and yes even Maul to a degree), that the Sith plot has noting to do with what is going on in the Senate. The Sith plot has something to do with Naboo, and not the current upheaval in the Senate surrounding the Chancellor.

    He has to have something to tell the Trade Federation that he wants, because he isn't going to tell them what he is really doing. So he tells them he wants some treaty signed to make the occupation legal, this leads the TF to believe the Sith are after something totally unrelated to what happens in the Senate with the Chancellor. The Jedi and Naboo also think the end game is this treaty, that there is something on Naboo the Sith wanted, and they would also be unaware to make the connection between the crisis o Naboo and the new Chancellor.

    We also see that Palpatine keeps his own apprentices in the Dark when it comes to his overall plans, so I think Maul didn't even know the treaty was a red herring... Examples of this are Dooku in ROTS not knowing what Palpatines overall plan was, and then even better was ROTJ when Palpatine doesn't tell Vader about his plan to lure the Rebel Fleet to the 2nd Death Star.

    So.. to me, the treaty was unimportant in every way to SIdious, because it was just a way for him to get everyone looking the way he wanted them too. This stage of the plan was all about getting him into the Chancellor's seat. Once that happened, than he put the second part of his plan into play, creating a situation where the Republic would be split into two, and engulf itself into a war that would force the Republic to give away it's power.
     
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  11. Andy Wylde

    Andy Wylde Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Yes the treaty itself became irrelevant to Palpatine once he gained the chancellorship. Even if the TF did get the treaty signed in their favor, Palpatine would have been the chancellor anyway. But as we see after the events of the battle of Naboo, The TF were able to avoid prosecution from the Republic courts. Because Palpatine was behind that so he could use the TF for the next part of his plan which was to start up a confederacy against the Republic. So either way the treaty was pretty meaningless.
     
  12. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    It eventually became meaningless, but it had a purpose originally. He didn't know the Queen would be able to escape the blockade. He didn't know she (and the Jedi) would barely escape their encounter with Darth Maul on Tatooine. Sidious already controlled various senators before the blockade of Naboo happened, and the Jedi weren't aware of anything.
     
  13. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012


    I just don't see it that way.

    We have more than enough information that tells us that Sidious is capable of foreseeing things and he builds his plans around that.

    So there is nothing in the movie to say that Sidious never foresees Amidala escaping the blockade or making it to Coruscant.

    It's been my belief that he does know this is going to happen, that he knows she will make it to Coruscant. However, he may or may not know every detail of where they will end up prior to making it to Coruscant. So he has to act accordingly when dealing with the Trade Federation that the treaty is of up-most importance to him still. So when the Trade Fed says that they can't find Amidala because shes too far out of range, well he has to act like he wants that treaty signed and that they will find it. It's selling the farce so as to make sure no one suspects that they are being played by him. The Trade Federation has to believe Sidious is in it for something else, so that way no one grows suspicious that he may be up to something else.

    Example, once Sidious has what he wants as his Palpatine guise (Valorums ouster and his nomination), he doesn't simply just disappear and leaves the Trade Federation hanging. He still has to sell the farce that he wants something to do with Naboo. If he doesn't continue to keep in contact with the Trade Federation after the Senate upheaval, than the Trade Federation might connect the dots that once things happened on Coruscant, Sidious disappears, and might blab about it to the Jedi or Senate. So he has to sell the farce that the Sith wanted something on Naboo, something that needed a treaty for him to get, something that had nothing to do with the Senate and the Chancellor.
     
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  14. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I can't agree.
    He can foresee things yes but we also know that the future is always in motion and we also know that there are plenty of things he didn't foresee. Like the DS getting blown up, Luke and Leia surviving, that Luke was on Endor, that there was still good in Vader and that he would turn back.

    In short, Palpatine is not presented as being omniscient or infallible when it comes to his visions.

    And in the film he says "This is an unexpected move for her.." when Padme has returned to Naboo.
    So apparently he didn't foresee Padme doing this.


    But to me this involves far too many what if and situations where his plan can fail badly that I can't see why a clever person like Palpatine going along with it. Unless he is either totally omniscient or engages in subconscious self-sabotage.
    He tell the TF to kill the Jedi, knowing that the TF will fail. So what happens if they get to Nute?
    He is a coward and will surrender, the blockade is finished and Palpatine's plan to make Valorum look weak has failed.
    Padme and the Jedi escape Naboo, through the blockade. Suppose their ship gets blown up?
    Dead Padme, no treaty possible and no vote either.
    Even if he knew that such an outcome was unlikely, why risk it when he doesn't have to?

    If he knew that she would come to Coruscant and was so 100% sure of this. Why bother to send out Maul? He could tell the TF that he would deal it and they would buy it. Had Maul done his job, what then, would he have him take her to Coruscant? If Maul is killed or captured, Palpatine looses plenty.
    Worse still, if Maul talks or his ship is captured and investigated, this could lead to him.

    Also, the Sith have been able to remain hidden under the Jedi's noses for a long time. This was no doubt very useful for them. They could operate in secret and the Jedi didn't look for them. So if he reveals themselves, he knows that the Jedi will now become alerted to their presence and that advantage is gone. So he would not do this unless he had a good reason to. And sending out Maul just for show isn't that.

    If your argument is simply that he knew what would happen on every occasion, then that, to me, makes his victory unimpressive. He knows what will happen and has such a massive advantage over everyone else that he would have to be an idiot not win.


    [/QUOTE]

    Except that him being chancellor was only part of his plan. The more important part was to get a civil war going. So even after he had gotten the chancellorship, the TF are still of use.
    And it is in his interest that they don't talk, as you said.

    In closing, I think that the original plan was not what happened in TPM and Palpatine didn't plan for Padme to escape or anything like that and he didn't have some convoluted scheme that relied on things he couldn't know about. He did plan for the treaty to be signed and most likely this was to make Valorum look weak and himself the victim and then he could have one of his cronies make the call for a vote and Valorum would be gone.

    @Defensor
    But if the TF "Control" Naboo, that would mean they control the government, they fill the positions with their people, that will do anything they say. A puppet government essentially.
    So why would they not also remove the current senator and put in one that they control?
    If nothing else, they gain one more vote to be used against the tax.

    So if the TF gain control over Naboo, Palpatine's time as senator could be over.
    If the senate ratify the treaty and agree that the TF are now in control of Naboo, why would they object to a change of senator?

    Also, when they flee Naboo, they say they can not land on any world that is controlled by the TF.
    This sounds like the TF has more than just a commercial influence on those worlds. It sounds like that there could be TF forces there and they could attack them.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
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  15. Defensor

    Defensor Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 2015

    I agree with you that Palpatine is not at all omniscient, he is simply good at adapting his original plans.

    I think Palpatine never intended the Jedi to survive. His orders were straightforward, he wanted them dead. Their survival was ultimately appropriated to his plans, but that wasn't the initial ideal. Remember, Palpatine wasn't informed about the Jedi. Valorum sent them in secret.

    Seems unlikely to me: the TF has very little to gain by showing the entire galaxy that they just executed a coup d'etat. Better for PR's sake to keep the Senator, the Queen, and just surround them with people whose pockets belong to the TF. Anyway, Sidious could just tell the TF not to change Palpatine.

    But the scenario that seems most likely to me is that Palpatine refuses to acknowledge the TF's new "rule", and becomes this kind of "champion" for the oppressed by the TF, and gets voted into office by public support once the crisis was over.

    What sounds to me is that the Republic worlds were all compromised due to heavy presence from the TF, and that they would be recognized as soon as they landed. The contrast in the captain's speech isn't that there are some worlds out there controlled by the TF, it's that they needed to get away from the TF and for that it was necessary to go to a planet that was not part of the Republic. To me, the line always meant something along the lines of: if we land anywhere in a place that is part of the Republic besides Coruscant, the TF has enough influence to get us killed. Better to flee away from the Republic - and out of the TF's monopoly - and land in a planet controlled by these gangsters who are not out to kill us.

    Commercial influence is probably the most powerful influence there is: it has made and unmade many rulers in the past, troops on the ground or not.
     
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  16. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I totally agree. A thing I like about Palpatine as a villain is that he can think on his feet. He can adapt and change his plans when the situation requires it.


    But say that the TF get Padme to sign the treaty by basically holding a gun to her head. Will they let her live after that? If she is allowed to talk to other people, she could say "This treaty is a sham, they forced me to sign this."
    Seems risky and I think it likely that Padme will suffer a tragic "accident" shortly after she signed the treaty.

    The TF didn't seem very worried about their public image. They had blockaded a small world, that had no military to speak of. Cutting of all trade and they only did this as a protest over some trade tax. So they had no beef with Naboo, only with the senate and yet they were punishing the Naboo for this.
    They are acting like bullies and abusing their military might.
    And what did the senate do once they were told about the invasion of Naboo? Nothing, except get stuck in details and also sacking the chancellor.

    It seems that the senate would have ratified the treaty. So they know that the TF has a military blockade around Naboo, then all communications with Naboo ceases and a few days later, the TF show up with some piece of paper granting them control over Naboo. Wouldn't people suspect that this treaty was made at gun point? But apparently that was not a concern to the TF.


    [/QUOTE]

    Yes this seem like the original plan. The senate is presented with this treaty and accepts it. Palpatine can act all outraged and say "Can't you see what happened, the TF forced Queen Amidala to sign this treaty, they have taken over our world by force." And then he gets one of his cronies in the senate to call for a vote against Valorum and he gets elected.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  17. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    I agree with Defensor

    Palpatine would position himself against the trade federation as a champion of the people. But I see him being voted in to solve the crisis, not after it's over. Making him more a leader of action.

    So if Queen Amidala had not made it to Coruscant, Palpatine would still need something and someone to spark the call for no confidence. He did a good job getting Jar Jar to propose Emergency Powers in AotC. Would Palpatine work the situation similarly to that. It does seem that Queen Amidala's speech to the senate helped impassion the other senators. Without Queen Amidala would Palpatine have given a speech himself to get things rolling with another Jar Jar like Senator calling for a vote of no confidence? Did Palpatine already had the enough votes in place to be elected or did the crisis on his homeworld help get the vote? And would Palpatine riding into having more directly impassioned the senate changed his style and demeanor as Chancellor.

    Thanks to Padme - he didn't have to be so directly opposed to the Trade Federation and other separatist organisations later in his career.
     
  18. elfdart

    elfdart Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2001
    The purpose of the treaty seems pretty straightforward:

    The Federation kept insisting that its actions were "perfectly legal", to the point of asking Sidious if occupying the planet was legal:



    The Federation is afraid of not having legal cover for its actions, no matter how bogus that legal cover might be. A treaty (one signed under duress by Amidala) would give a fig leaf of cover for acts of war perpetrated by Gunray & Co. It wouldn't really fool anyone else -they'd see through the charade- which is exactly what Palpatine wants: poor, helpless little Naboo and its child queen being bullied, attacked and coerced by the big bad Trade Federation.

    It also gives incontrovertible proof that the Federation has in fact attacked and occupied Naboo. Remember, without the treaty, Gunray's spokesmen in the senate lied rather brazenly, claiming they hadn't attacked Naboo at all! A bogus treaty signed by Gunray (and Amidala at gunpoint) would prove once and for all what was happening.
     
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  19. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2003
    There were bureaucrats on the payroll of the Trade Federation, and Sidious was calling the shots to the Trade Federation. So, I'm sure ratifying the treaty wouldn't have been hard. Sidious could have those senators bribed to force it through.

    Don't get me wrong, I think the beginning of TPM is convoluted. But other movies have this issue too: ROTJ and TFA do with the convoluted rescue of Han and the map to Luke respectively.

    Macguffins and convoluted plot points are used to get the characters to where they need to be.

    The pre-invasion political situation of TPM is the convoluted point of that film, IMO.

    For instance, why blockading Naboo was part of the plan.

    They use taxation of trade routes to block this random planet (random as far as any onlooker would be concerned. Qui-Gon even states that their actions don't make any sense).

    They declare their actions are legal, even though they aren't/won't be for long. There's an exchange between Haako and Gunray about how they know there's no way the Senate will approve of the blockade when it comes to a vote (and why would they? Why would they legalize the blockade of an innocent planet, when the blockade is in defiance of their own ruling regarding taxation?)

    When Valorum sends Jedi, Palpatine wants them killed and says they must accelerate their plans and orders the invasion of Naboo.

    That implies that the invasion was always part of the plan, it just had to happen sooner than expected.

    It took only a matter of hours to occupy the planet.

    Basically the TF could have surprise attacked Naboo and had them suppressed almost instantly and then could have forced Amidala to sign the treaty, even before the Jedi knew anything.

    Instead, they draw the Republic 's attention with a drawn out blockade, allowing time for the Jedi to get involved and bringing all attention on them. The blockade itself seems pointless. The invasion was what always needed to happen and Sidious implies that it was always part of the plan.

    Story wise, the blockade was needed to get things going, but from an in universe strategical standoount, it seemed like the liability that doomed the initial plan, since it allowed for the Jedi to take action.

    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
     
  20. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 13, 2014
    TaradosGon

    Everything you post makes complete sense from the point of view of the Trade Federation and things working out for their best interests. I get the feeling Sidious may be setting them up from the start to fail in order to further the Sith Lord's own personal interests. Can we trust anything Sidious says to the Trade Federation? Was Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's arrival actually a surprise to Sidious? Were the Neimoidians really expected to kill the Jedi? I don't think we can really know what is true.
     
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  21. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    In as much as the Jedi managed to smuggle Amidala off planet and get her back to Coruscant, I think it was very much unforeseen by Palpatine and not very welcome either. All the while she's held at gunpoint by the Federation she's under his thumb and he can string both sides along for as long as he likes. Once she's off the planet and got a pair of Jedi bodyguards she becomes a wild card and he can predict but not control her actions, hence unleashing Maul to get her back and kill the Jedi. When Amidala decided to return to Naboo of her own free will, his plan was back on track. He's good enough to have adjusted his plan on the fly but I don't think he was ever omniscient.
     
  22. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    Eh. See, I don't know.

    Sidious seems not too concerned with the Naboo cruiser escaping and sends Maul after it. Then Maul fails. We don't see Sidious get particularly upset at the Neimoidians, and we don't see Maul reprimanded for his failure. We see things work out in Palpatine's favor without the slightest setback. Which is a problem of the prequels as a whole, IMO. That things go too smoothly for Palpatine all of the time.

    And I think what the original plan was is confusing because of how the characters are portrayed.

    So, there's taxes and the Trade Federation doesn't like them and so they blockade Naboo, superficially in protest with the hope of getting them repealed, while in reality they did it because Sidious told them to and because they had to in order to uphold their end of the "bargain." We don't know what that bargain was, and I guess for the sake of the story, it doesn't matter in the long run. But it still is a little unclear.

    What were the Neimoidians getting? A repeal of taxes? Control of that trade route?

    Some have said that they were promised the planet, yet if that were the case, then why is Gunray taken aback by the order to land his troops and the legality of it?

    Also, when Amidala contacts him, he says "at last, we're getting results" as though he was waiting for her response. The treaty seemed to have already been written up. So, it seems like the hope was to starve out the Naboo until they surrendered with a "legal" blockade, but when things looked like the Senate would vote against the blockade, Sidious needed to hasten the Queen's surrender by invading.

    That's all well and good, but my issue is with things going way too smoothly for Palpatine, even though every stage of that plan failed.

    And it seemed like Haako was against the bargain all together. Sidious tempted them by playing on their greed, but at the same time they were constantly afraid of the consequences. It seemed like the TF had history with both Palpatine and Amidala, as though this wasn't the first time they had tried to secure Naboo ("The Trade Federation has gone too far this time"). A little more exposition of that history would have helped, IMO. As would a scene or two of Palpatine recoiling from things not going to plan.

    Because I have a hard time discerning whether he was counting on their failure or not. For being less forgiving than Vader, he seemed to be ok with the colossal"failure" of his plan, though it all worked out anyway.

    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
     
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  23. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    We didn't see him getting angry but if he was fine with Amidala jaunting around the universe he would never have sent Maul to get her back in the first place. If nothing else, she's the only one who can actually sign the paper the Federation want signed, which she certainly won't be doing if she's watching Pod Races on Tattooine. I agree that having him express some sort of anger that his plan had been (temporarily) derailed would certainly have made things a bit clearer but as I say, sending out Maul pretty much sets out that Amidala's escape was not part of his original plan.

    He got a very lucky break when Padme of her own free will returns first to Coruscant to give Valorum the boot, and then secondly to Naboo where his army of droids has taken over. I would agree that this could have been made clearer but he did at least allude to this in one of his ''discussions'' with the Federation.
     
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  24. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    Boy do I miss the times when Star Wars movies actually had complex and interesting political intrigue. And ok, some of it might be too convoluted but it does provide a lot of food for thought (the OT was pretty good about that too, even if it was more simplified).
     
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  25. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2003
    I understand what Lucas was going for, and I agree that the intrigue of it does add a layer to the story that I do like in the prequels, I just think the PT hit its stride in AOTC and ROTS while I think the plot of TPM was more convoluted.

    And it's not like TPM is an anomaly on that front. In TFA, the opening crawl says the New Republic supports the Resistance, while all canon works and even a cut scene would have shown that's not true at all. So you get these little glimpses at a complex relationship that makes the story a bit convoluted. Hux says the Republic is lying to the Galaxy while supporting the Resistance. The opening crawl says they support them. Everything else shows that only a small number of sympathizers funded the Resistance and that Leia was pretty much on her own and labeled a war monger.

    With TPM, the opening crawl says the blockade is in protest of taxation. But it's not. And that's something RLM got hung up on was the taxation issue, when taxation was just an excuse for the invasion, but not the root cause. The root cause was that Sidious ordered them to, that the would be given control of the planet if they followed his orders and he would protect them legally.

    Taxation wasn't the cause at all. It was just a ploy that if the Galaxy thought that the blockade was in response to taxation, and saw Naboo surrender to the TF while the Senate was locked in a debate, Palpatine could expose Valorum as being incompetent.

    But then there's this layer of how the blockade is even remotely legal. While The and Gunray DO pretty much admit that it is inevitable the Senate votes the blockade illegal, for pretty much the whole movie the issue is deadlocked in the Senate and in a gray area.

    And it's just hard to wrap my head around how. The Trade Federation was superficially starving out a planet in protest of democratically passed legislation, pretty much giving the finger to the rest of the Senate. How the TF senator and his Senate allies could argue and justify the blockade of this random, innocent planet is unknown.

    It seems cut and dry that as the unprovoked aggressors, the TF should have been hit with sanctions and the Jedi should have been sent in. Instead two Jedi were sent in only secretly, and even after those Jedi report back to Valorum, nothing gets done.

    I think to say it's because of "corruption" is an over simplification, since that's a vague answer. It seemed like the Senate as a whole was fed up with Valorum, since they so eagerly voted him out of office when he agreed to a commission as suggested by the TF and Malastare senators.

    The situation is very complicated and yet you get minimal exposition and brief glimpses as to what's going on that I don't feel lend themselves that great to the rather brisk pace of Star Wars films.

    I feel like it could have been simplified more.

    It could have been something like the TF had been intimidating the Naboo to join their trade league for some time and they held out. So they then invade and deny doing so. A very similar story while cutting out the blockade and taxation aspects.

    Or it could be something like a succession dispute. That Amidala is nominated for Queen while her rival is backed by the TF and an invasion and civil war ensues when it appears when it looks as though Amidala is going to win.

    The same morale/cautionary tale of corporations with political influence could have been told with a much more streamlined story.

    Because I kind of feel like TPM needed a prequel even to it to lay the groundwork for how things had gotten to that point.

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