ST What did Vader start?

I mainly thought that he thought the Empire had the right idea in terms of how to run the galaxy and that Vader came so close to realizing this ideal ordered galaxy where a single powerful authority enforces "peace." This political vision has always been rather confusing to me (from Vader as well). But I guess I figured that it's somehow more about the dark side and domination of the galaxy; it's just those who still have a significant amount of light in them will have this distorted picture at first that it's the right thing to do. I also agree with Darth_Pevra that he seems to see this as a holy mission.

From Bloodline, it's clear that he grew up watching the New Republic government basically unable to get its act together. It's the same issue the Old Republic govt was having that Anakin complained about: they can't get anything done because they are busy fighting each other, so someone must make them agree. Every world's (and especially every person's) tiny opinion doesn't need to be debated ad infinitum. I'm sure Anakin's views were highly influenced by Palpatine; and likewise Kylo Ren's views are highly influenced by Snoke.

What's kind of interesting in this though is that Ben would have probably had an incredibly personal window into the politics of the New Republic because Leia was heavily involved in the Senate. I find it interesting that he turned after the reveal that Darth Vader is his grandfather, not only because I suspect he hadn't known this previously (there's still a chance he did know though) but because after that Leia isn't able to do so much politically. If he had any faith in his mother being able to stabilize the political situation, that would be largely dashed.* Most of the Senate doesn't trust her after they find out Darth Vader was her dad. If there's one thing all the Populist-leaning systems and even a good portion of the Centrist-leaning systems agree on, it's that Darth Vader was the most terrible person ever (well, aside from the Emperor--but Vader was the face of the Empire in a lot of ways). So many people's lives were directly touched (devastated) by Vader and his evil deeds. The emotional (traumatic) impact of that makes them allergic to Leia in govt. If Ben had any remaining conflict between Leia-politics vs. Snoke-politics, it would probably have resolved at this point placing him squarely in Snoke's camp.

I would like it if Kylo Ren wanted Skywalkers to rule the galaxy,** but he doesn't seem to have any desire to have anything to do with his family. It's as though he's rejected all of them. That he kills his father seems to make that pretty clear. I kind of like the idea that he might want Luke to switch sides (and I agree that we don't really know from the movie what his personal interest in finding Luke is) because I think that he might consider bringing Luke to the dark side as "saving him" (Kylo Ren is like an inverse of Luke almost). But I suspect it's really that he couldn't kill Luke when he turned because Luke would have won (or perhaps because Kylo couldn't bring himself even to try since he does struggle so much with the light). Because he wants to be as strong as Darth Vader (worthy of Grandfather), killing Luke would prove that finally he is strong enough. It would also be what Vader couldn't do (since he made the "mistake" of succumbing to sentiment). And so to finish what Vader started, Kylo Ren has to kill Luke. (Still, that doesn't rule out turning him, as Vader had considered that an option as well.)

It's also interesting that finding Luke isn't as much of a priority to Snoke as it is to Kylo Ren (re: the debate between Ren and Hux on the Finalizer). Snoke probably is just being logical: taking on Luke would be quite the undertaking, so if Luke is hidden away with no contact with the rest of the galaxy and not training new Jedi, then he's not an immediate problem. Beyond this, sending Kylo Ren to kill Luke at this point would probably just lose him his "apprentice."

As to why Snoke and Kylo Ren discuss Vader so much and not the Emperor, I think it's because Kylo Ren is obsessed with Vader and not the Emperor. There'd be little point in Snoke going on and on about the Emperor in his manipulations as that doesn't stir the sort of deep emotion in Kylo Ren that Vader does. I'm sure they have discussed the Emperor as well though, but that the topic is far less frequent.

*ETA: Oh, and I just remembered that Leia had been close to becoming the equivalent of Chancellor (unless it's still called Chancellor, I just can't remember) and she had planned to actually take more power in that position than a lot of the Populist-leaning worlds might want and it was because the Senate was unable to function. So this really could have presented conflict for Ben (he agrees there should be a powerful authority).

**ETA2: Unless he planned on reproducing and thus making new Skywalkers. lol

 

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...hat-exactly-did-vader-start-himself.50038665/

 

I like the notion that what Kylo is referring to is the defeat/conversion of Luke. That would be the ultimate victory.

 

You have to ask JJ but he would look more puzzled than we do.

 

Hmmm, never thought of it that way but that would be rather interesting.

I always assumed he meant the destruction the Jedi, or on a larger scale maybe he believes Anakin/Vader never brought "balance" to the Force and Kylo feels the weight now falls on him. Or, if it's doing a full throw back to the PT, maybe Kylo means he will find the secret to immortality/ preventing death?

 

Oh, I would LOVE it if the immortality thread is picked up again!
I think it's more likely that that's Snoke's thing, though.

 

Palpatine counsels Anakin that the Sith and Jedi are not that different. The Sith however are driven by the need to control, to bring a certain type of stability and order to the galaxy, and use the Dark Side ( and all the nasty things that go along with that, the means justifying the ends) to achieve their goal. At the point of Anakin's full conversion after Mace's death - even though his prime motivation getting there was to save Padme - is also a buy-in to the Sith philosophy of peace and stability by extreme authoritarian rule.

The need to destroy the Jedi was central to the plan. Without their total destruction, the Sith goals could not be fully achieved. Though Kylo is no Sith (and neither it seems is Snoke), he still admires (actually hero worships) his grandfather, admires the concept of stability through power, and understands total destruction of the Jedi is essential to the objective has grandfather spent the larger portion of his adult life serving. Anakin's redeeming efforts and atonement was just a brief moment of weakness.

The goals had not been achieved for a permanent institution of stability through authoritarian rule since the Sith and the Empire was destroyed (and by the only surviving Jedi, through the new Jedi, his uncle). Kylo vows to finish what his grandfather started: the destruction of all Jedi and the establishment of authoritarian rule utilizing the Dark Side of the Force.

 

Does anyone else find it kind of ironic that Kylo probably thinks Darth Vader's mistake was turning back from the Darkside, which most likely would've resulted in him never being born at all?

Maybe Ben/Kylo is waaay more angsty and emo than we already believed. He wishes he was never born, apparently.

 

I don't really care what Kylo Ren thinks Darth Vader "started" that he wants to "finish", I just want Anakin Skywalker to show up as a Force Ghost and slap some sense into the little punk!

 

Vader started to lure Luke into the Dark Side. He failed.

 

It's a shame Padme can't come back as a Force ghost because she would sure as hell bitch slap her fascist grandson

 

Doesn't the Senate know that Luke Skywalker is Leia's brother and that she helped him rid the galaxy of Darth Vader and the Empire once and for all? You would think that based on the galaxy's perception of Luke in the Force Awakens and Leia's family ties to him, the Senate would overlook her other family connection to Vader.

 

yes.

i think you would probably just need to read the book and see if you find it believable. mainly it created all these questions... she says she found out close to the battle of endor, but what if she was secretly serving her dad all along? what if she was actually a double-agent, and leaking rebel secrets to the empire? after a history of being conned by palpatine (who also seemed "good" at first), should they "fall under the spell" of vader's daughter? the associations of horror with darth vader get transferred to her (my god, she's related to him, it's like she's of his nature!). i think it's all very irrational, but i'm not sure i find it unbelievable. you could probably draw parallels to real life politics, the media, people's reactions, so on. i saw a documentary once about living relatives of adoph hitler and some talked about how people would react to learning of that "link." people just begin thinking of all the horrors and then don't look at "you" quite the same.

 

How come nobody made those same assumptions about Luke? He is Vader's son after all so people throughout the galaxy would've transferred those same associations to him. Noone would dare idolize Luke the way they do knowing who his father is and would've gladly helped the First Order find and kill him. Neither Rey, Finn, nor Poe Dameron would be willing to risk their lives to help the offspring of a tyrannical sorceror like Vader.

 

it's in the context of the senate. leia's a senator, luke isn't. luke isn't exactly hanging around, he's off searching for mysterious temples. i can't answer every question as if i were the book defending itself. read book and speak with it.