What did we "know" about the prequels from the OT?

Actually, it's due to people believing that turning to the Dark Side makes one a mindless automaton...which really isn't the case. After the turn, Anakin was still in love with Padme, and was planning against him:

This is not the talk of someone who is "under the control" of someone else, especially since he's just turned to the Dark Side, and Palpatine's control - had he been using such a power - would have been the strongest.

The problem is many people take Palpatine's threat to Luke as true - that when Luke turns to the Dark Side, Luke will be under Palpatine's control just as Anakin was, despite the fact that Vader proved he wasn't really under Palpatine's control, and in fact never was. What kept Vader in line wasn't power exerted by Palps, but Vader's own fears. Vader made himself a victim....believing - as he did in ROTS - that the only choice he could make was to support Palpatine, rather than turn against him.

Furthermore, in the ROTJ novelization:

Palpatine was hoping that Luke, like his father, would feel compelled by his own needs to turn to the Dark Side, but not only was Luke bought up better than Anakin, but the Dark Side would ultimately not help him - through it, he almost killed his father despite wanting to save him, and Palpatine was planning on killing Luke's friends and the Rebellion. The only thing turning to the Dark Side offered was the chance that Palpatine wouldn't kill him then and there, so Luke chose to sacrifice himself instead.

Notice that Lucas talks about redeeming Anakin. You will not find one mention in any quote about Anakin breaking the grip of some power that Palpatine held over Anakin. Anakin had made himself a prisoner in a cage of his own making, the bars of which were made by his own fears of loss. It wasn't until Luke sacrificed himself that Vader saw how much he lost as a result of his choices, that turning to the Dark Side had actually made things worse for him, rather than better. He had thrown away everything for the Dark Side, and gained nothing.

* giggle *

 

You're overinterpreting the "break your will and make you obey him"-part. This does not = "make Vader into a mindless Zombie who will never think an independent thought or take an independent action". There is a lot of room for Vader to be angry and hate his master and even dream of plotting his demise for decades on end, even as he is under the Emperor's sway. The trick is to turn those thoughts into actions, and the opportunity for that only arises when Luke enters the picture. Even then, Vader is compelled to obey any direct order the Emperor gives him: "turn Luke to the Dark side" (a suggestion planted by Vader to not be ordered to kill his son), "bring Luke to me".

For me, the line "You don't know the power of the Dark Side, I must obey my master", and the way it is spoken, conveys a huge amount of meaning. I interpret it like thus: Vader is under the sway of the Emperor, when Palpatine commands, Vader will comply even if he hates the order in question. But note the first section of the sentence - the power that Palpatine commands over Vader comes through the Dark Side - the Dark side is the vehicle of this control. When interpreted as substance abuse, this makes perfect sense: Palpatine has hooked Vader on the Dark side, and Vader cannot resist that (yet - Luke will later provide him with the "rehab" he needs to break free). Note also that it is not quite as simple as "the first use", but rather how immersed the user becomes in the Dark side - it is only if Luke kills Vader in hatred that he will cross that tipping point, and he does come to the brink...but then has the internal strength to not take the final step.

 

I think the dark side aids Anakin's breakdown in ROTS rather than specifically causing it. The primary impetus for going from "What have I done?" to "I will do anything you say" is not just the dark side's influence, but Anakin's conscious acknowledgment of his priorities. Severing Mace's arm also became the moment he severed ties with the Jedi Order, and it all primarily comes down to his possessive love for Padme. Anakin is "drugged" with simple knowledge as much as he is with dark side power given his knowing that the order forbids him the life he wants, the life that Palpatine seemingly not only approves of, but is willing to help Anakin to preserve.

The situation reminds me of a passage in ROTS novelization author Matthew Stover's book Heroes Die. In this book a character is surprised by how far the main "hero" is willing to go to preserve another character's life. The "hero's" response: "[screw] the city, I'd burn the world to save her." This line perfectly describes Anakin for me. Sometimes the hero isn't very heroic. Anakin's mowing down of the Younglings is neither a surprise nor an absurd leap in characterization, as he already did something similar with the Tuskan slaughter. These acts were his choices, and his choices were influenced not only by an evil energy field, but by the simple truths of his life that saw a slave join an order that couldn't accommodate whatever it was that Anakin needed.

Similarly, Luke makes his own choices, albeit out of a love that stems from a place other than the worst type of obsessive possession. He is a hero because he chooses to be one, not because he evades Palpatine's/the dark side's finger-snapping-will-breaker technique.

 

Oh really?

EMPEROR: The Force is strong with him. The
son of Skywalker must not become a
Jedi.

VADER: If he could be turned, he would
become a powerful ally.

This, combined with the reinforcement of the Rule of Two in the SE's, which means Palpatine's AND Vader's duplicitous nature against each other is painfully obvious to each other, kinda stops your assertion right in its tracks. In fact, if all Palpatine had to do was to command Vader NOT to turn against him, then why didn't Palpatine do exactly that? Don't you think a power like that would have made the Rule of Two unnecessary?

In fact, I seem to recall Palpatine (and Ben and Yoda and even Vader himself) saying that Vader could NOT be turned back from the Dark Side. And yet Vader turned nonetheless.

Vader was not under the control of Palpatine. Vader could have made the choice at any time. That is the lesson of these films - it's never too late to make the right choice. Otherwise, you are saying that Vader was an automation who was rendered incapable of making the right choice, so he is not responsible for his actions.

And again, I challenge you to find a single quote from Lucas saying that Palpatine controlled him through the Force.

And yet, when it really counted, Vader defeats Palpatine. These films are not about the Force. They are about personal choices. If Vader is held under the magical sway of Palpatine, then his lesson is not transferrable to us. The correct analogy would be someone addicted to drugs or alcohol, who become so dependant on such that they truly believe they cannot live without them. The "control" of the drugs and alcohol exists only in the mind of the addict, rather than the drugs, themselves. Yet to the addict, they believe they cannot stop themselves. This is the dilemma Vader faces, until he overcomes his own fears of loss, and breaks his own addiction to power.

Yes, which is forcing Vader to make a choice.

Lucas states this as well:

 

The rule of two is never once mentioned in the OT films, and therefore redundant in this thread which is specifically about what conclusions we can draw about the PTs from the OT. For me, when Vader is speaking that line (and I'm thinking about the original dialogue here), he is doing so under duress. He knows that Palpatine has a habit for killing anyone who comes in his way. The only way for Vader to not be ordered to kill his son, is to convince Palpatine that Luke is better alive than dead. I'm basing this off of voice inflections and the acting I see on screen. It's just my interpretation (as always).

The only character who ever explicitly says that Vader "can never be turned from the Dark side" is Palpatine, and a couple of lines later, Luke bluntly states that Palpatine's overconfidence is his weakness, so I just read that statement as a sign of that weakness. Ben, I will agree, has completely given up on Vader...but that is again because of an inherent weakness in Ben - his pride, and the emotional trauma he has suffered from his pupil turning on him, has made it impossible for him to see any road to salvation for Anakin. He has given in to despair. Yoda never ever comments on the possibility to turn Vader back from the Dark side. He says that Luke must confront Vader, yes, but I've never seen that as encouraging Luke to kill his father. I've seen it as Yoda telling Luke what he needs to hear to do the right thing. And that's what he does, he follows the road of Zen, and turns his father back. And, yes, that's how it goes in the OT: the OT is about Luke, Luke is the protagonist, through his actions, he turns his father back. Even Anakin acknowledges this at the end

Luke: I've got to save you.

Anakin: You already have. Tell your sister you were right about me.

It was not Anakin who saved himself from the Dark side, it was Luke who saved him from the Dark side: Anakin himself squarely and explicilty puts redemption on his son. That's what the OT is telling us.

We've been over this so many times already. You know my position well and we both know that we don't agree on this one, so let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

 

I was specifically thinking of Anakin talking about how the Jedi have turned against him, how from his perspective they're evil. This can still be rationalized but I suspect it made a lot more sense before the film was reworked.

I agree with your response as well, though.

For what it's worth, this is a theme Lucas has a history with - he uses that same metaphor when discussing THX 1138.

What I get from that line is that Vader is afraid of what the Emperor will do to him (and/or Luke) if he disobeys, not that he physically can't. I can see where your interpretation comes from, but taken together with the rest of the occurrences in the films I don't know if it fits...

Agreed. I also agree with the bit about the 'lesson being transferable.'

 

Then why is he talking about the power of the Dark side specifically? Why not say something about what the Emperor will do, or how powerful the Emperor is? I think the fact that he talking about the Dark side of the Force as an entity, and not the Emperor as a person, is hugely significant in that segment. But, again, that's just my interpretation...

 

Palpatine clearly wants either Luke or Vader as his apprentice in ROTJ. There's no room for both. This is why the "Rule of Two" is so easily applied to the OT in retrospect - because it's already there.

But Palpatine has already said Luke should be killed. At that point, shouldn't Vader just agree, since he's under Palpatine's mind control. Or is it more like "Simon says...."?

LUKE: Search your feelings, father. You can't do
this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go
of your hate.

VADER: It is too late for me, son.

----------------------------------------

BEN: I also thought he could be turned back to the
good side. It couldn't be done.

----------------------------------------

YODA: Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the
Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression.
The dark side are they. Once you start down
the dark path, forever will it dominate your
destiny.

Luke was the catalyst....but Vader had to make the choice....unless you are now implying that Luke used this same mind control to get Vader to do the right thing. Is he really such a marionette?

Actually, your point reminds me of a line in Jacob's Ladder....

If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on...you'll see devils tearing your life away.

But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels freeing you from the earth.

It's just a matter of how you look at it, that's all.

This describes Anakin to a Tee. Anakin was made to see devils through Palpatine's lies. The fact that his attitude towards Padme changes from wanting to take her with him to choking her when Obi-wan arrives should tell you all you need to know. If it was Palpatine's mind control, Anakin would have killed her immediately. What changed Anakin's mind were his own fears, not Palpatine's powers or the Dark Side. Just Anakin. All the Lucas quotes support this.

 

Palpatine only lies to Anakin when he says the Jedi would kill the Senators, after Anakin has joined the Sith. Everything else he said to Anakin was true.

Kind of like midichlorians, eh?

 

I figured he was talking about the Emperor using the dark side on him (to punish/destroy him). After all, shortly thereafter in ROTJ we find out the Emperor can throw lightning, something that up to that point we'd not seen anyone else do - it seemed like he was a conduit for raw energy. And that would be dangerous. (I'll revisit this post later to make sure it makes sense)

 

And it IS significant to Vader - he's thrown his life away for it, just as a addict would with drugs. It's when Anakin realizes that the Dark Side is not significant that he is finally able to turn himself around. He sees that the Dark Side holds nothing for him, and he has a chance to save his son. It's when he stops worrying about his own life that he is able to make his own destiny.

But there's no Dark Side power holding him back.

 

No, not really because if the apprentice ever gets strong enough in the dark side then he can turn around and kill his master. That might be anohter reason for Palaptine to get rid of Vader and get Luke, Vader was getting close to be strong enough to disobey his commands and kill him. Also Vader is responsible because as lonng as he does not let go of his hate, Palpatine can "command" him but when Vader finally does let go then he is able to destroy Palpatine. lastly this is not that Palpatine commands Vaders every thought, the longer Vader feeds his hate his good qualities gets weaker and weaker and he would no longer have any objections to do evil deeds. So Palpatine need not command him then.

Under the rule of two and without this Palpatine "command" power, why is Vader even going along with the turning of Luke in RotJ? If Luke turns it will mean Vaders death, so why would he go along with it unless he had no other choice.

Regards
Nordom

 

EMPEROR: He could destroy us.

VADER: Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this.

Sorry, there is nothing to indicate that Vader cannot choose to destroy Palpatine prior to this. Vader's plan clearly hinges on Luke because Vader has convinced himself that he cannot defeat Palpatine on his own (or, at the very least, do so without getting himself killed.) Palpatine must continue to manipulate Vader with lies, because he does not have such direct control. It's not until Vader sees through Palpatine's lies that he realizes how wrong his choices have been.

Palpatine didn't hold Vader in thrawl anymore than he did Dooku or Maul. Lucas has stated over and over that Anakin's story is about choices, whereas your theory makes Vader a Force-marionette, and therefore not responsible for his acts from the moment where he turns to the Dark Side. The fact that he at first tries to get Padme to join him against Palpatine, and then subsequently chokes and kills her when he sees Obi-wan shows that he is making his own decisions.

...which is not only not shown to exist, but if it DID exist, then it would render the "Rule of Two" unnecessary, since the master would simply command his apprentice to NOT kill him.

I don't see any mention of the Master controlling the Apprentice against the Apprentice's will. Do you?

It's about choice, not the Force.

As I said before, Vader is still trying to turn Luke for himself. In addition, Vader has convinced himself that he has no other choice.....CHOICE....just like the way that he felt he had no other choice but to follow Palpatine in ROTS - yet another instance where he got Anakin to do his bidding without mind control.

 

Ok let?s see if I can make myself clearer.
The ?command? power only works in close proximity to the emperor and requires constant thought from Palpatine. Say like if Anakin or Luke comes charging him filled with anger and hate then Palpatine can use that hate and break their will and force them to their knees. As long as they do not let go of their hate then Palpatine can command them or at the least control them. The more they hate their orders the quicker their good qualities will be drowned under the foul poison of the Dark Side. Soon enough they will no longer object to do nasty things. In Vaders case, both times where he is plotting against Palpatine, he is far away from Palpatine so Palpatine?s hold over him is weaker. Then in RotJ, when Palpatine is close at hand, Vader is much more cowed and docile.
In RotS Anakin needed Palpatine and he was a willing seduce and Palpatine knew that, so it is likely that he did not have to actually ?command? him. In ESB Vader was far away from the Emperor and thought that if he turned Luke and both attacked the emperor then Palpatine would not be able to ?command? them both and he could be killed.
In RotJ Palpatine is close at hand at all times and Vader can not resist his commands even though he knows they would lead to his or Luke?s death. Also consider, Palpatine killed his master while he slept, why did he do that? Perhaps if he had gone for a frontal assault his master might have been able to stop him. So he waited until his master?s guard was down and then struck.

The issue of choice is not removed, there is still the critical choice of giving in to your hate or not. Then there is also the choice to let go of your anger and your hate. As long as you choose to cling to your hate, you will do things you otherwise would not do.
Also the longer you use the Dark side the more twisted and corrupted you will be and soon you will be eager for power and not have any qualms to crush those in your way.

Mind control powers are an established part of SW, the Jedi can use it to make others do their bidding, it makes sense that the Sith could do the same and that they would be more ruthless in the use of it. Also the Force can partly control your actions. Also it is said that if you give in to the Dark Side you will become an agent of evil. Luke also said ?I know there is good in you, the emperor has not driven it from you fully? and ?You are wrong, you will not turn me as you did my father.? Both speak of the emperor as someone that can turn a person and drive the good out of them.

The biggest reason for me in this case is that without some kind of ?power? to command or control, Palpatine?s plan with Luke makes no sense. He is not offering Luke anything, he is just trying to get him as mad as he can. If Luke had gone all the way and killed Vader, his first impulse would then to attack Palpatine will all his might. Palpatine would then probably be forced to kill him and then what would he have gained? Why would a Luke, no worse of than Anakin after he killed Dooku, want to serve the emperor? Palpatine has just killed all his friends and made him kill his own father; he would hate his guts and want nothing more that to carve him into tiny bits. Palpatine was offering Anakin things he wanted, he was not offering Luke anything, other than the prospect of being his slave.
Also it makes no sense for Vader to go along with this plan. His role seemed just to be someone for Luke to fight until Luke?s hate got strong enough and then he would have died. If he thought that he could turn Luke for himself then he should have let Luke kill Palpatine. If Luke did that and turned then Vader is now the master and Luke his apprentice.
If Luke killed Palpatine and did not turn then Vader would still be the master.
If Palpatine used some kind of power to defend himself then that would present Vader with an opportunity to kill him.

With the rule of two it gets even stranger, Anakin knows what happened to Dooku, surely he does not think that if Luke beats him then Palpatine would let him li

 

Sorry for not getting back to this in a while. Been busy with the term start.

This is, again, where you interpret my interpretation incorrectly. I'm not talking about direct mind control through the use of the Dark Side of the Force. There is absolutely not a shred of evidence in any of the movies that Palpatine every uses Mind Control on anyone. We see Ben and Luke do it, and certainly Vader, but never Palpatine.

I'm rather speaking of a state of dependency, where the Sith Apprentice, through coercion, promises of power, negative emotions AND the influence of the Dark side of the Force becomes dependent to the Sith Master.

[Edit] I've used the metaphor of substance abuse before. One could also draw parallells between the Sith the abusive practices of brainwashing Sects of various forms where members live under the thrall of some charismatic leader that often is very destructive towards the members [/edit]

Only thus can I see why anyone would stay under Sith tutelage. It's a very big galaxy, any Sith Apprentice could pack up and just leave his Master and go and train on his (or her) own if he wanted to if (or rather when) the Dark Master got too abusive. Remember, we're talking about an order of Force users who relies on the Dark Side of the Force - fear, anger and hatred are driving principle values for them. And yet, for some reason, as you point out, a Sith Apprentice has stuck with a Sith Master for thousands of years, perpetuating their philosophy. It's probably not out of altruism, so why would they stick together with someone who teaches them fear, anger and hatred? What kind of learning environment and relationship do you think exist between them? It's hardly a very nice and cuddly one, I'd imagine (though this is, of course, conjecture).

Vader does try to convince Luke to help him against the Emperor. More specifically, to join him in the Dark side and team up against the elder Sith. Such thinking is entirely normal in the kind of paranoid and mistrusting environment that tends to delevop in an environment based on fear, anger and hatred. But Luke turns him down. When they meet on Endor, Vader knows he cannot get Luke to agree to that plan (he'd rather jump into a seemingly bottomless shaft than agree).

And yet Vader brings Luke before the Emperor. He is a defeated man on Endor. His voice is filled with regret. He doesn't want to do what he is doing. He really doesn't have any plan anymore to turn Luke to the Dark side. He is acting on behest of his master against his own wishes. He is clearly compelled by Palpatine at this point and attributes it squarely to the Dark side of the Force - it's very nature, his very reliance on this entity compels him to obey his Master at this juncture in the story.

Now, one could, patently interpret the story as you do - it's all about his own choices, there is no external factor influencing him. The problem I have with that is that it trivializes the choices the actors make in a "Haha, he just fooled himself all along" kind of way. It also means that in the GFFA it is possible for a Force user to wake up a Grey on Monday, become a follower of the Light on Tuesday, turn to the Dark side on Wednesday, and then become a champion of the Light again on Thursday, all dependent on what mood he/she happens to be in when waking up in the morning. This completely under-estimates the tremendous psychological struggle we see Anakin going through.

The OT tells us: it's easy to fall to the Dark side, but it's a long and hard climb up a very steep mental mountain to get back into the Light. In your interpretation, it's really just a quick stroll down to the corner shop, which removes a lot of potency from the story. In my opinion.

 

Where do you get this stuff from?

Which is true in our world, which is why the lesson is to not make choices in anger. If you throw in this mind-control, then the lesson is not transferrable.

It doesn't mean Vader is Palpatine's mindless automaton.

Then again, Luke was never intended to fall to the Dark Side anyways. It's a possibility in-galaxy, but not in Lucas' mind, so this reasoning proves nothing. That being said, there's this from the Annotated Screenplays:

Obviously, Vader has to be dead for Luke to wear his mask. And yet despite having killed his father, Luke has not "automatically" fallen to the Dark Side, nor is Palpatine exerting any kind of mind control over him.

One need only consider how Palpatine, Ben, Yoda, and even Anakin himself called Anakin a lost cause....and yet Anakin was able to turn himself away from the Dark Side. Luke was right about his father, and everyone else was wrong.

Yeah...Lucas said all this already:

Right or wrong, this is how they operate. Were you really not aware of this?

It kinda reminds me of The Patriot. We have a German foreign exchange student, and to help her with US History, we showed her this movie. (German language with English subtitles.) During the war scenes at the end, our student was laughing at how stupid it was for the soldiers to just stand there and shoot at each other. Guys were falling dead left and right on the front line, and everyone else stood their ground and reloaded.

As stupid as it looked, that was how armies fought in those days. T

 

Agreed, although just because Vader and Palpatine don't use it onscreen doesn't mean they are incapable of it.

Again, I would agree.

Save for the novelization.

No, it's actually a sad "He had the power the whole time, but convinced himself otherwise." He was a prisoner in his own cage.

Again, note that Lucas is talking solely about Anakin's mindset and choices - and makes no mention of being under Palpatine's control.

And again, while this situation is technically true, it's not within the scope of the films. And I remind you, again, that Palpatine, Ben, Yoda and Anakin all believed Vader could not be turned back from the Dark Side, and yet he was. Good, bad, and good once again - because it's never too late to make the right choice:

 

And now you're mixing apples and oranges again. All of the above quotes are talking about leitmotifs and core themes in the tale. And I fully agree with everything said, those are, very clearly, the dominant themes. But when I talk about the influence of the Dark side on Vader, I talk about the natural laws internal to the GFFA, which Lucas does not talk about at all in any of these quotes. He's not talking about what I'm talking about, quite simply.

Also note that the quote actually supports my statement about what the OT is telling us:

That's exactly what I said: the OT tells us that it is easy to fall to the Dark side, but coming back the Light side is a long, hard climb back.

See my comment on your own Lucas quote, above. I'm not the one trivializing Anakin's journey.

 

That much is obvious.

 

In ESB Vader wants Luke to join him so they can rule the galaxy together, and he tells Luke he can destroy the Emperor. Vader wants him for himself but the Emperor now knows about Luke. So if Vader doesn't change his mind, then the order is to kill Luke; by trying to turn him, he buys time.

In ROTJ the Emperor goads Luke to kill Vader and take his place at his side. Vader knows this when the Emperor calls his bluff, that's why he is so resigned to his fate when Luke surrenders to him. He is expecting his Dooku moment. He is no longer trying to turn Luke for his own advantage, and he knows he's likely to be the odd man out.

It may not be stated explicitly, but clearly this is not going to be a threesome of Sith if they can turn Luke.

 

Some of it is informed conjecture to be sure, but it is all based on the films, not early scripts, not novels or what Lucas said. This thread is about what we might ?know? about the PT based on the OT.

There are three main reasons that I base this idea on.

1) In ESB vader is plotting to overthrow Palpatine and make himself the master. But in RotJ all those plans seem gone and Vader is instead Palpatine?s loyal lap dog, with no plans for himself and seemingly resigned to his fate.
Why is this? Well in ESB Palpatine is half a galaxy away, in RotJ he is right there, so that is why Vader is much more docile and cowed.

2) The Vader/Luke scene on Endor. Here I see a Vader not wholly happy with himself, he has regrets about the choices he has made and the life he has lived.
He does not really want to hand Luke over to Palpatine because then onlu one of two things could happened as far as he knows. Either Luke does not turn and then Vader will be forced to kill his only son. Or Luke turns and the he will find himself in the same hole that Vader is now. Again not a very happy thought for Vader.
So why does he do it? Well Vader flat out tells us why, he MUST obey his Master, he has no choice.

3) The scenes on the DS2, Palpatine was planning on turning Luke by getting him mad enough to kill his father in hate. But without some kind of power to command or control Luke, what would he gain? He would loose Vader and get a pissed off Luke, who would only want to carve him into bits. Not a good trade I feel. So Palpatine must have an ace up his sleeve, otherwise his plan makes no sense.

Also the Darkside is presented as a danger to all Jedi, that fear and aggression can be quick to join you in a fight and that must be avoided at all costs. It is said or implied that IF you give in to your hate and fear then you will loose yourself, you will become an agent of evil. That you can not use evil to do good. Without this what is the danger to a jedi? If they can turn to the dark side and back again with ease then they could use that power to do something that needed doing and then turn back again, no harm done.

You still misunderstand, Vader is no more a mindless automaton than a soldier obeying orders he himself finds distasteful or a drunk driver or a junkie on a high. They all have a choice in what they do, a junkie can choose not to do drugs, it might be a very hard choice but it is still a choice. Vader did have a choice and he chose to give into his hate and fear. Further, he still has a choice everyday and every moment to let go of his hate or cling to it. As long as he chooses to cling to his hate and his fear then he is not fully in charge of his own actions. Palpatine can command him. Not that Palpatine needs to do so at every moment, Vader own good side is drowned by a sea of darkness and he has few reservations about doing evil things. But on occasion, Palpatine needs to step in and show who is boss.

The choice to give in to your hate must be made willingly yes, but what happens AFTER that is another matter. With Luke it is still his choice to give in to his hate or not. He is certainly being pushed one way but he still has a choice to make. However once he makes the choice to give in to his hate THEN the situation changes. The film is quite clear here, IF Luke kills Vader then he turns and he will be Palpatine?s loyal servant.

If a person chooses to drive into town and get drunk and then kills three people driving while drunk that person is still responsible for his actions. He did not make a conscious choice to kill those three people but he chose to get drunk and drive. So he did a thing he would not otherwise do but he still is responsible for it. Same with Vader, as lon

 

Are you saying he fell to the Dark Side in AOTC? He killed an entire village, including women and children. If so, did he not come back from it then?

Here's something else the OT made clear - Yoda, Ben, Palpatine and Anakin all believed Anakin couldn't be turned back...and yet he turned back.

 

Firstly, this thread is about what we could "know" about the PT based on the OT so what AotC did or did not do is beside the point. Secondly, since the OT came first and estblished the rules, if AotC breaks them then the fault lies there. Personally I do think that Anakin should have fallen based on what RotJ established. That he did not is either due to Lucas not paying attention to his own rules or he flat out ignored them.

To the second, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Palpatine and Anakin were wrong yes but Luke was right. So it is not like the OT said that it was impossible to turn back. Luke said it was possible and he was proved right. But as far as turning TO the dark side, I would think even Luke would admit that he got very close to turning but he managed to pull back just in time.

Regards
Nordom

 

Or perhaps the rule isn't quite as "written in stone" as you took it to mean. Yoda's words to Luke could well have been an exaggeration to get a strong point across. Don't forget that after asking to many questions about the Dark Side, Yoda wanted to drop the matter altogether. Luke was too curious about the Dark Side, and Yoda wanted Luke to ignore it altogether. A quote from the Annotated Screenplays says:

So here's Yoda, making the Dark Side out to be the Boogeyman. Now ideally, Luke should have taken Yoda's descriptions and decided that Anakin couldn't be turned back. But something changed his mind...the good he sensed in his father, which means Yoda could have been embellishing for Luke's sake (and/or Lucas doing so for the audience's sake - which wouldn't be out of place in the overall, since Star Wars tends to focus on extremes of good/evil, and it is a space fantasy. Another good example of Lucas doing this is in the scene where Yoda mentions "another".

But the point was that he didn't...he was never intended do. Lucas is demonstrating to the audience how easy it can be to make a hasty, wrong decision out of fear and anger, and how one must compose themselves to make the right decision.

And to continue with the extremes/fantasy aspect, his decision by all rights should have led to his death, since he left his father injured and unarmed, ultimately bringing it down between himself and Palpatine. Obviously, not every decision we're going to make is going to lead to such a life-or-death situation, but that's the overdramatization of Lucas' point. The lesson remains the same - you should always make the right choice for the right reasons, rather than the easy choice for the wrong reasons.

 

I was in a hurry, and forgot to include this:

No, but it was heavily hinted at for the sake of suspense, just as it was heavily hinted at that Vader couldn't disobey the Emperor. Turns out it wasn't true after all.