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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT What do people mean when they say the Prequels lack 'heart and soul'?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Cocytus, Sep 26, 2016.

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  1. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Permission to land on Landing Platform 327.
    The odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field are 3720 to 1.


    If Anakin is Danny, does that make Luke (The Joker) his dad?


    But (why so) Siriusly, I have more to say regarding the op, when I get a chance.
     
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  2. Colwyn Ren

    Colwyn Ren Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2015

    After the recent "Ghostbusters" fiasco, I think it may be time to take seriously the possibility that many, many reviewers might actually be paid by the studios.
     
  3. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    The recent Ghostbuster film is one of the most absurd Internet things that I've seen in recent years.
    If you liked anything about the movie, then you were betraying the original.
    If you disliked it in any way, then you were a misogynist.

    So no matter what a reviewer thought about the film, there would be people jumping all over he/she, bashing them and saying how that opinion was wrong.

    The Nostalgia Critic has two pretty good videos about how silly and ridiculous the whole thing became. Both "Sibling Rivalry" and the NC review.
    I didn't watch the film but I was aware of all the hate towards the film long before it opened and the claims of how those that didn't like it were misogynists and the backlash to that and then the backlash to the backlash.

    The reviews were pretty mixed, some good, some mixed and some bad.

    Take the Twilight films, the reviews were decidedly mixed, some good, some mixed and some bad.
    The Imdb score is quite low and those films have quite a lot of online hate.
    I haven't seen any of them because what little I do know of them doesn't make them sound like anything that I would like.
    But plenty of people did see them and there are clearly people that like them.
    The reviews are often not as bad as some of the online hate but is that evidence that the reviewers were bribed?

    Or take the two DC-films, BvS and SS. The critical reviews are not good to say the least.
    But here the Imdb score is better than the critical consensus and these films did make quite a bit at the BO.
    And I know that some argue that the reviewers in this case were bribed to give bad reviews.

    As for Ghostbusters, long before the film opened, Sony would have figured that they were looking at a loss or at best, a break even. So why even bother with spending more money to get good reviews?

    That critics are at times not in agreement with the general population, that isn't news.
    But that studios would spend loads of money to bribe critics and this was done on a massive scale.
    If that was the case, then someone would have talked by now. Something would have gotten out.

    And I just don't think that the studios would want to risk this. If the truth ever did get out that they did this on a massive scale, the backlash could get ugly.
    And again why bother, some films are "critic proof", that people will go see it despite bad reviews.
    SS is an example of that.
    Other films will most likely do badly even with great reviews.
    Ex the recent Ben-Hur remake. That got bad reviews but even with stellar reviews I don't think that would have changed much.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  4. SW Saga Fan

    SW Saga Fan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Now that you mention about it, I've just checked my DVD/Blu-Ray box of TFA and I've never noticed that these were really the first words on the back of the case!
     
  5. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 17, 2015
    Yeah, I chose Kuro as a tribute to Kurosawa, which I thought was appropriate considering the fact that Lucas has always been very candid about how much Kurosawa influenced STAR WARS. And I just really like that image of Toshiro Mifune in YOJIMBO. There’s just something about it. You can tell this is a guy who knows what he’s doing and has everything under control. If I had to name my all-time favorite director, it’d be a real tight race between Alfred Hitchcock, Stanley Kubrick, Akira Kurosawa and Martin Scorsese.

    I have to admit that I really hated SOMEWHERE, which I found to be incredibly boring and pretentious. With LOST IN TRANSLATION, I grew to care about Bill Murray and Scarlett Johansson’s characters and I could relate to them. With SOMEWHERE, I really couldn’t have cared less about Stephen Dorff’s character. I just thought he was a totally bland cipher of a character and by the end, I was just counting down the minutes until the closing credits rolled

    Personally, I think ATTACK OF THE CLONES is not only the worst STAR WARS movie, and not only is it the worst movie George Lucas has ever made (frankly, HOWARD THE DUCK was better than ATTACK OF THE CLONES), but I consider it one of the worst big-budget movies in the history of cinema. Just an incredibly boring, horribly written, horribly acted mess of a film totally lacking in any and all humanity or feeling or emotion…and any attempts at conveying humanity and emotion convey such a horrible and complete lack of comprehension of human behavior that it forces me to wonder if George Lucas is actually is a human being or whether he’s secretly an alien in disguise. Honestly, the only film that I can think of that even comes close to being as misanthropic as ATTACK OF THE CLONES is Pier Paolo Pasolini’s SALÒ. Not that ATTACK OF THE CLONES contains any coprophagia, but both films seem to convey the exact same message: “Humanity sucks and any and all expressions of humanity will inevitably lead to unspeakable evil.” Also, the sole good factor in each film is the music written by a legendary film composer- Ennio Morricone and John Williams, respectively.
     
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  6. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Just an incredibly boring, horribly written, horribly acted mess of a film totally lacking in any and all humanity or feeling or emotion…and any attempts at conveying humanity and emotion convey such a horrible and complete lack of comprehension of human behavior that it forces me to wonder if George Lucas is actually is a human being or whether he’s secretly an alien in disguise.


    This comment irks me more ways than one. It is a complete misunderstanding of Lucas and humanity as what he does as a living being. . An insult to the intelligence, and I believe that this is one of the most immature insults because it lacks the understanding on what "human beings are".

    "Lack of comprehension of human behavior..."

    What does that mean? Not even humans quite understand themselves to a full extent after many many years on this earth. Again and again, Kubrick had to deal with these comments also because both of the situations are similar.

    I just think that it's just a very narrow way of thinking to pin down George as "lacking in understanding humans" because THX, American Graffiti, All of Star Wars etc proves that there is more than a shy man.

    It's just....Comments like these show me that there nativity on humans.

    Sorry for the mini rant

    /rantover
     
  7. Negotiator1138

    Negotiator1138 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 23, 2016
    AOTC is usually at the bottom of the people's favorite list when it comes to Star Wars between PT fans and non-fans alike, but I think it is a little much to say it is one of the worst big-budget movies ever. I think it has a lot of merit.

    The two main reasons I love AOTC are as follows.

    #1 - The lights and vibrant colors, the fast action, the super-hero-like Jedi. For me, as a kid, this was the Star Wars I had always dreamed of seeing. The Jedi at the height of their power. It seemed they could do anything! I honestly felt like Anakin when he said "No one can kill A Jedi." I loved Obi-wan's detective story as it takes him to so many interesting (visually and otherwise) places across the galaxy.

    #2 - The movie starts off and all of the characters are stiff and political, and afraid to break the mold, but as the plot unfolds the characters break free from their societal figures and become more human.

    Kuro would you say these are positive aspects of the film?

    Granted, I know some people a lot of the scenes in the movie fall flat for them, but I can accept that. I can accept that there are parts people don't like, it's only natural. But for those who don't like the movie, what parts of the film do you like?
     
  8. seventhbeacon

    seventhbeacon Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2015


    I know you directed that at Kuro, but I'd like to chime in.

    Not a positive. Not a negative. Batman and Robin had this, but so did Spider-Man. One film was absolutely dreadful, the other was inspirational. The visual elements are still definitely the strong suit for AOTC, though.

    The feel of the noir detective unearthing of the mystery is one of more enjoyable aspects of the film. The initial scene of the sabotage that killed the decoy was quite effective and evocative... and while the scenes in the Coruscant apartment are nigh unbearable, once the adventure starts it can at least be fun, even if cringey at times. The music did a big part, I think, to bolster the feelings, if not the script and actor direction. However, I think you make a good observation of the shift from the characters playing their roles to breaking out of them, especially as the galaxy descends into the chaos of galactic war.
     
  9. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Not really. If anything, I found all the bright colors and flashing lights to be seizure-inducing. And I never like it in a film when your main character is a boring invincible superhero who’s never in any real danger.

    I also don’t really see the characters becoming more human as the film progresses. I mean, I guess Natalie Portman decides to marry Violent Murderer Man for no good reason, but that’s simply a plot development, as it has absolutely zero basis in anything character-related. If, during the last 10 minutes of the movie, she just shot up into the air and started flying around like Superman, that would be more character-based and have better setup than her decision to marry Anakin. At least that could be explained away as “the Force acts in mysterious ways” or you could claim that all that interstellar travel somehow screwed up her relationship with gravity. Marrying Anakin Skywalker? The only plausible explanation is that she hit her head pretty badly falling out of that gunship, causing severe brain damage and making her incredibly stupid. Aside from that, the characters are pretty much exactly the same as they were when the movie started. Anakin Skywalker is still a psychopathic barely contained ball of emotions who makes Travis Bickle look like a model of mental stability and who makes Alex from A CLOCKWORK ORANGE look like the epitome of moral virtue, compassion and empathy. (Seriously, Charles Manson is more likable than this creep.) Obi-Wan Kenobi is still incredibly irritated with Anakin, and an overall decent, well-meaning guy who doesn’t really have much in the way of a personality. Meh.
     
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  10. Negotiator1138

    Negotiator1138 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 23, 2016
    Seizure inducing? Kuro I was trying to meet you in the middle and try and find one aspect of the film that we can agree is good.

    It really seems like you just don't want to concede that a single molecule of this film has any good in it. A film that millions of people saw, and many of them loved it. How can so many people appreciate something that hasn't a single redeeming quality?

    So my challenge to you is this. Can you name two, or three if you can manage, aspects of the film you like/think are done well. There obviously must be something if so many people like it, right? So just name two or three. Don't worry, nobody will be convinced you are starting to like the film. I just want to see if you are looking at this objectively, or if you just want to dislike the film.


    I'll start by doing the opposite.

    #1 I think the fireside scene kind of fell flat. That scene should make the audience feel more emotion than it does.

    #2 While I can appreciate how revolutionary it was to make the entire clone army out of CGI and have it look so good, I really think we should have seen a few "practical" costumes for some of them. Cuz the clones surely looked like clones, copy and paste style.

    #3 I really dislike the droid football going on the screen in the 'Outlander Club' in the beginning. It looks too much like American Football, and it kind of takes me out of it.
     
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  11. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 16, 2015
    I'll play! I've said before that I think this would be a fun game.

    Things I like about AOTC:
    1.) the Tatooine story: It was a personal story that was interesting to watch, especially Anakin's strong emotional reaction to finding out what happened to his mother.
    2.) the Geonosis battle: It was just a fun sequence to watch. The beginning portion was especially fun because everyone was handcuffed & tied to those polls, so they had to problem-solve to get out of that sticky situation. I also like Obi-Wan's humor here with lines like "Good job (in response to Anakin saying they came to rescue him)", and "She seems to be on top of things"
    3.) This aspect is always a cop-out/cheating, but I'll say it anyway........the music! I especially love "Across the Stars".

    Okay, now someone who typically likes the prequels a lot should respond to me and list 3 things they don't like (it could be about any movie, or even all the prequels)! Let's play this game guys!
     
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  12. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    1. No Ewoks.
    2. Puppet Yoda in O-TPM. Puppets (and their Muppet cousins) break my immersion more so than CGI
    3. Jar Jar's vest. Unnecessary fannish nod to Han Solo
     
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  13. seventhbeacon

    seventhbeacon Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 3, 2015

    Normally I'd agree with #2 but sometimes... like, Snoke just looked unfinished and slapped together for me, and as much as I love Maz her appearance also seemed blurred which clashed with the sense of reality for me in much the same way the CGI clones did in AOTC (especially on Geonosis).
     
  14. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 17, 2015
    Things I liked about ATTACK OF THE CLONES? The Williams score is pretty good, as I already stated. I think that Ewan McGregor, Christopher Lee, and Ian McDiarmid all give pretty good performances. The death sticks scene was kind of amusing. That’s it. Everything else in this movie is complete and total garbage.
     
  15. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2006
    This post lacks heart and soul.[face_peace]
     
  16. StarKiller81

    StarKiller81 Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 19, 2014
    Well many felt the performances were wooden which doesn't exactly convey a lot of emotion. That could be a reason.
     
  17. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    The only Star Wars movie I hate more than AOTC is TFA, yet I still like plenty about AOTC.

    Across the Stars is amazing.
    Everything on Kamino.
    The asteroid field chase.
    Most of what happens on Geonosis.

    That's a lot. What is it, half the movie? (anyone know the exact amount of time spent on Kamino, the asteroid field and Geonosis, off the top of their heads? Don't go to any extra effort on my part.)

    It's just that Anakin and the romance are catastrophic. I'd probably enjoy everything starting with Kamino much more if I didn't have such a bad taste in my mouth from everything that came before it.
     
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  18. Darth Cocytus

    Darth Cocytus Jedi Master star 4

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    May 8, 2016
    Things I like about AotC in no particular order :

    1.) All scenes with Obi-Want Kenobi
    2.) The Coruscant Chase.
    3.) All scenes on Kamino, Geonosis, and Tatooine, including all action sequences, and the Naboo environment
    4.) Most of the acting.
    5.) The Opening Scene
    6.) John Williams score
    7.) Jango Fett
    8.) Palatine getting emergency power
    9) The ending sequence.
     
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  19. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    I tend to think that AOTC offers a lot. Those elements plus:

    - The love story
    - The locations
    - The art design generally
    - The story and plotting generally
    - The "big" events of the saga: Palpatine gaining his emergency powers on Coruscant, the reveal of the clones on Kamino, Anakin's personal tragedy on Tatooine, the galactic tragedy on Geonosis, the wedding on Naboo
    - The great mix of characters and creatures and weird interplay of textures and environments
    - The "day in the life" feel with the Star Wars galaxy at its most layered and open and crazed and tragic
    - The action sequences (really well-staged, varied, and full of colour and intrigue, IMO)
    - The sort of expansive, Indy/Bond-esque "travelogue-intrigue" vibe of the movie
    - The bold mashing of disparate film genres along with that travelogue vibe
    - The fact that AOTC is even more of a melodrama than the other five (or six)
    - The strong and highly aestheticized digital cinematography and digital art-scaping
    - The whole texture and feel of the film as a whole

    And yes, Hayden and Natalie. Hayden, especially. Love him in this movie.

    I also think AOTC is more of an intensive character study than the other movies --> a huge plus in itself.

    Loads of great points to AOTC, IMO.

    All in all, it's a fantastic piece of entertainment.

    But opinions on this movie do, of course, tremendously vary.


    And while a little off-topic, just to respond to one of your earlier posts...



    I see a lot of myself in the Johnny Marco character. I'm not entirely arguing your diagnosis. He is, I think, in some senses, "less" of a character than Bill and Scarlett's characters in LIT. But that's also the point. The small details of who he is -- or, more accurately, where he is, and how he is -- add up to something great (if, also, in terms of his spiritual malaise, a bit on the sad and pathetic side). He is exquisitely humanized throughout. In fact, JM's blandness, next to the slightly fuller souls of Bob and Charlotte, allows "Somewhere" to develop a quiet intensity (Johnny Marco is in every scene) that not even LIT quite develops. That is the beauty of the later Sofia Coppola picture, in my eyes, at least. I can't help liking the guy a lot, despite (and because of) his staunch languidness. As the film literally asks at one point: "Who is Johnny Marco?" The guy is beyond Bob and Charlotte's Tokyo vanishing point; he is a question to himself. In some regards, I see SC's second "hotel" movie as her greater achievement. It's very honed and has a refulgent atmosphere all its own. LIT is more like a classic Hollywood film with its A-B plot structure but gorgeously gauzy and opulent; "Somewhere" has an awesome focus to it and is Sofia at her most gentle and intense. I love them both.

    In fact, between the "masculine" Star Wars saga and Sofia's wonderfully "feminine" bubbles of impressionistic existentialism, I feel I have almost everything I want, or need, out of cinema. These are films, enclaves, cosmologies, I feel I can return to, again and again. I can lose myself in these films, and they can subsequently become lost in *me*. They also, in their own ways, inspire or awaken a poetic instinct in me (or I feel they do). There's something about them; something I can never put my finger on. Ultimately, George Lucas and Sofia Coppola are singular filmmakers, singular storytellers, singular human beings. They have both touched me in ways few other people ever have.


    And, with that, back to AOTC quickly...


    I do, genuinely, find it intellectually interesting that AOTC inspires such despondent loathing in some people. I hope you don't think I've mischaracterized you there. But you do use very strong words, after all. I don't know if I would attempt to classify AOTC as "misanthropic" -- maybe. It seems, to me, to be a very lively and engaging picture; but in a very particular way. Is it thematically misanthropic? I can see more cause for the label in this regard. Lucas launches a spiritual "attack" on society in the prequels; and AOTC is its poetic nidus; everything here thickens; it is the PT, and the popular art of GL, generally, at its most daring and outlandish. So, in a way... yes. Lucas has certainly made or overseen warmer movies. But one so finely blended? I don't know. I'll grant you, AOTC is a bit more comic book-y and surrealistic than anything else he's ever done (THX included), but, try as I might, I can't see that as a bad thing. It has a texture and a grandeur and an eccentricity to it that I just love.
     
  20. Darth Cocytus

    Darth Cocytus Jedi Master star 4

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    May 8, 2016
    Forgot this one for some reason: 10.) Count Dooku
     
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  21. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016
    I swear, Kuro, you're the textbook definition of someone who blows things out of proportion.
     
  22. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    Kuro's descriptions of Anakin Skywalker crack me up, I mean really put me in hysterics. I had forgotten what it was like to really hate Anakin Skywalker, and Kuro hates him with a hilarious passion.
     
  23. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Yeah I think a lot of what he writes is exaggerated, but it is pretty hilarious. Has anyone noticed how he never refers to Padme by her name? He almost always calls her "Portman" whilst simultaneously calling every other character by their name. I dunno if that's deliberate or not, but it always makes me laugh.
     
  24. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Talk about the old "certain point of view" adage. For many this list could serve as the worst elements of the movie!
     
  25. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    A thousand times agreed on how AOTC so effectively conveys "The "day in the life" feel with the Star Wars galaxy at its most layered and open and crazed and tragic." More so than the other entries I get a sense of frank emotion from AOTC that makes not just this one film but the whole story all the more meaningful.
     
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