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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT What do people mean when they say the Prequels lack 'heart and soul'?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Cocytus, Sep 26, 2016.

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  1. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Anakin lashes out in rage against the tribe that kidnapped, tortured and eventually killed an innocent woman for no discernible reason. That was also the only surviving family he has. He also feels a lot of remorse for his actions, breaking down in the garage scene.
     
  2. WattoIsAJedi

    WattoIsAJedi Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2016
    I don't know, I liked the prequels :)... some of the acting was kind of bad though
     
  3. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Actually, Anakin’s desire to be all-powerful is a very consistent trait of his, one that eventually leads to his alleged “downfall”. The entire raison d’être behind Anakin’s supposedly tragic turn to the dark side (which, in actuality, was neither tragic nor a turn to the dark side, as he was already plenty dark before that point) is that the Jedi don’t offer him some quick and easy path to becoming all-powerful, whereas the Emperor does. In fact, Anakin explicitly says at one point, “I know there are things about the Force that [the Jedi] are not telling me.” Anakin is a fundamentally good, but flawed, man. He’s a whiny, petulant, murderous megalomaniac.

    As for Luke, who was it that told Luke to train under Yoda? As I recall, Obi-Wan is the one who said, “Luke. Luke! You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.” Luke was simply doing what Obi-Wan told him to do, and, as I recall, Obi-Wan backs him up when he asks to be trained. Luke never demands to be made all-powerful. He simply asks for the opportunity to train.

    Luke also has the capacity to learn from his mistakes, unlike his father. The film actually addresses the point of Luke’s failure at the cave later on.

    YODA: The cave! Remember your failure at the cave!
    LUKE SKYWALKER: But Master Yoda, I’ve learned so much since then!

    Luke does not lash out at Yoda and try to blame Yoda for his mistake the way his father would have. Instead, he acknowledges his mistake and learns from it…you know, like an actual adult. And when Yoda demonstrates that what he’s asking is possible, Luke does not proceed to lash out and claim that Yoda is somehow maliciously withholding some sort of secret power from him. He simply looks on astonished, says, “I- I don’t believe it!” and accepts that he was wrong! THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK could’ve just as easily been called LUKE SKYWALKER LEARNS FROM HIS MISTAKES—THE MOVIE.

    And ironically, Luke telling Yoda “You ask the impossible!” shows just how different he is from his father. Luke knows that he’s not all-powerful, and believes that Yoda is demanding too much of him. Anakin believes that he is entitled by divine right to be all-powerful and that Obi-Wan and the Jedi are maliciously withholding that knowledge from him because they’re jealously holding him back. “It’s all Obi-Wan’s fault that I'm not all-powerful. Because he’s so jealous of just how awesome I am, he’s deliberately holding me back and preventing me from becoming all-powerful. He’s withholding from me my divine right to unlimited power! Wah wah wah!
    I never demanded that Anakin be perfect. I simply demanded that at some point, we actually see him as a good man. We never see that. We only ever see him as a petulant, narcissistic, murderous, bratty megalomaniac. In short, Anakin is not flawed. He’s outright evil, as I have repeatedly demonstrated. Remember, William Calley was sentenced to life imprisonment and branded a war criminal for doing the exact same thing that Anakin does to the Sand People. If we can judge William Calley based solely on the My Lai massacre, we can do the same with Anakin.

    As for Luke going from undisciplined young man to wise Jedi Knight, we actually do see it. It’s called THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. Now I understand why a prequel fan might not get this point. Unlike the prequels, it’s subtle and it’s not expressed via a character sitting down on a couch or walking down a hallway delivering some grandiose, melodramatic, poorly written soliloquy conveying his emotional state. It’s conveyed through the character’s actions and his experiences. Here is the moment where Luke becomes the man we see at the beginning of RETURN OF THE JEDI. Right here:



    Everything that Luke has learned in the film, everything that Yoda has taught him, builds up to that moment where he decides that he would rather die than turn to the dark side. Vader gives Luke the exact same offer that the Emperor gave him 20 years ago…and Luke rejects it. The encounter with Vader humbled Luke and forced him to grow up fast, which is why the next time we see him, he’s much calmer and more mature. It’s also why, despite having previously told Luke to stay on Dagobah and complete the training, Yoda now tells him that he doesn’t require any more training. He passed his test during that encounter, and learned from it. Whereas with Anakin, we don’t really see him learn from his experiences in THE PHANTOM MENACE. We don’t see him train or get put through the ringer in such a way that he’s forced to grow up fast. In fact, he doesn’t really experience much development at all during THE PHANTOM MENACE. He’s pretty much exactly the same at the end as he was at the beginning. Luke, on the other hand, is decidedly not the same person at the end of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK as he was at the beginning.

    And as I said in another thread, the relationship between Han Solo and Princess Leia progressed. In the original STAR WARS, they didn’t like each other that much…at least at first. By the time we see them in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, there’s a clear attraction between them, but they’re both reluctant to make the first move (Han spends most of the movie trying to get Leia to make the first move). By the end of the movie, they’ve both acknowledged their attraction to each other and have even gotten to the point where they’ve fallen in love. By the time we reach RETURN OF THE JEDI, they’re clearly a couple.

    Now here’s how the relationship between Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker progressed. Again, I'm gonna ignore THE PHANTOM MENACE, as they have exactly zero meaningful interactions in that movie. At the beginning of ATTACK OF THE CLONES, when we first see them together, they hate each other and can barely tolerate being in the other’s presence. At the end of REVENGE OF THE SITH, when we last see them together, they’re trying to kill each other.
    “I was angry” is not an acceptable defense, nor is “they were asking for it”. Wife beaters use that defense. The troops who perpetrated My Lai used that defense (“But we thought those gooks had killed several of our buddies.”) I don’t accept it from them, nor do I accept it from Anakin Skywalker.

    And remember, Anakin explicitly says, “I killed them. I killed them all. They’re dead. Every single one of them. And not just the men. But the women. And the children too.” In other words, he killed the innocent as well as the guilty…and he knows it. Yet does he turn himself in? Nope. Does his girlfriend, who’s a powerful and influential Senator, as well as an alleged principled political idealist turn in this murderous creep? Nope. She just brushes it off and dismisses (and I’m pretty sure that there are laws in place prohibiting powerful government officials from protecting murderers, so she’s not entirely off the hook here either).

    The scene in THE GODFATHER series that’s comparable to the Sand People massacre isn’t the scene where Michael shoots Sollozzo and the police captain in the diner. It’s this scene:



    In other words, it’s comparable to Michael’s single most heinous and appalling crime. Honestly, nothing that Vader did in the original trilogy was as appalling as the Sand People massacre. When ATTACK OF THE CLONES came out in 2002, this was the single most awful and reprehensible thing the character had ever done onscreen. Yet we’re supposed to believe that he’s still good at this point. Not because of any of his actions or choices, mind you. No, we’re just supposed to accept it because George Lucas says so. Well, I don’t accept “Lucas says so” as a reason for him still being good.
     
  4. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2015
    *In Obi-Wan voice* Oh, dear.
     
  5. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Vader sat by while an entire planet was destroyed. Tarkin did much worse than Anakin, killing an entire planet of innocent people.

    We know that Anakin is still fundamentally good, because he feels remorse for his actions, shows regret, and confesses to Padme.

    Notably however, Padme has no reason to believe the Sand People are anything other than savages. In her experience, they kidnapped an innocent woman,and killed her.

    In short, you exaggerate the flaws, while ignoring identical flaws in the OT.
     
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  6. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    A murderer who confesses is still a murderer. How can a murderer of innocent people be fundamentally good? In our society a murderer of innocents would get a life sentence, even if he confesses or regrets his actions. They would still be bad, not good.
     
  7. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    A hero is “a person noted for courageous acts or nobility of character”. Anakin may actually qualify on the basis of “courageous acts” (credit where credit is due, Anakin is certainly not a coward), but “nobility of character”. That’s a trait he completely and utterly lacks. There’s really only one scene where he demonstrates it, and that’s during the opening of REVENGE OF THE SITH, when he refuses to abandon Obi-Wan, despite the Emperor’s protests that they should just leave Obi-Wan behind and get outta there while they still can. Aside from that brief flash, he’a actually quite ignoble.
    It’s called subtlety and nuance. I don’t expect prequel fans to understand those concepts, since the prequels have a tendency to just spell everything out for you and completely ignore subtext. Luke’s experiences during THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK change him and cause him to become a calm, mature and more skilled Jedi Knight. That’s why, when rescuing Han at the beginning of RETURN OF THE JEDI, he doesn’t just barge into it without any real plan the way he did on Bespin. Having learnt from that experience, where he failed to rescue his friends, and having been humbled by his loss to Vader, he exercises patience and actually comes up with a plan to rescue Han. In other words, that experience taught him not to be so impulsive and rash. Remember, this exchange:

    YODA: The boy has no patience!
    OBI-WAN KENOBI: He will learn patience.

    By the end of the film, Luke has indeed learnt patience…the hard way. Everything else that Yoda planned to teach him, Luke learned the hard way on Bespin, hence “No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need.” In other words, Luke learns from his mistakes and through life experience…much like a real person.

    But you’re a prequel fan, which means you wanted a soliloquy where he sits down on a couch and just heavy-handedly spells it all out to the audience in boring exposition dialogue, rather than having him demonstrate the lessons that he learned via his actions. Yet the Anakin we see after leaving Tatooine is pretty much the same as the Anakin we see before leaving. Whereas with Luke, it’s pretty clear that Bespin was quite a traumatic experience for him (“Ben. Why didn’t you tell me?”), and one that he’ll replay numerous times in his head. And the next time we see him after escaping Vader, he seems much calmer and more at peace as he and Lando Calrissian are discussing the plan to save Han (“I’ll meet you at the rendezvous point on Tatooine.”), rather than recklessly and impulsively charging headfirst into it as he did on Bespin.
    As for Han being a narcissistic brat…um, no. Anyone who thinks that Han Solo is as bad as Anakin Skywalker is simply a bad judge of character, and not someone I trust to discern anyone’s moral fiber. For one thing, at no point does Han ever murder children. Secondly, Han actually shows concern for people who aren’t him, such as his eleventh hour return at the end of the first STAR WARS, or when he risks his own life to go out and rescue Luke on Hoth for no reason other than friendship, as seen at the beginning of this clip:



    The other people actually tried to dissuade Han from going out and rescuing his friend, warning him that he’d probably die. But that didn’t matter to Han because his friend was in danger, or as he puts it in that wonderful Han Solo way of his: “Then I’ll see you in hell!” Contrast that to Anakin, who spends his entire adult life being narcissistically obsessed with his own feelings, and never giving a damn about the feelings of anyone else. For example, when he mistakenly believes that Leia loves Luke rather than him, here’s how Han Solo responds:



    Han responds to it with maturity and grace, being willing to put Leia above himself. Now, here’s the Anakin Skywalker method of handling that exact same scenario:



    As always, Anakin lashes out in violence.

    Regarding Han and Leia, this is again something I would not expect a prequel fan to understand, since they’re used to everything important happening offscreen in between movies. The relationship progresses during THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. It would be absolutely correct to say that there is still plenty of tension between Han and Leia at the beginning of the movie. But we see them fall in love, and see their relationship progress and develop over the course of the movie. How their relationship goes from “You could use a good kiss!”/“Why you stuck-up…half-witted—scruffy looking…NERF HERDER!” to “I love you.”/“I know.” We see the feelings that these two have for each other develop and intensify. What starts off as an attraction develops into a true and abiding love for each other. Notice how, after they get out of the asteroid field, their interactions are no longer as acerbic and vitriolic. For proof of that, compare their interactions on Hoth to their interactions on Bespin:



    If you’re referring to that minute-long scene in the elevator, that was just a Hail Mary pass that Lucas threw in there during post-production in order to fool people into thinking that these two are friends…despite the fact that they spend the entire rest of the movie expressing nothing but hostility and animosity towards each other.

    Vader did not pull the trigger on Alderaan. He sat by and let it happen, and he’s certainly culpable for that, but I’d argue that his level of responsibility is the same as Portman’s for the Sand People massacre. With the Sand People massacre, on the other hand, Anakin did that one all on his own. He bears the brunt of the responsibility for that. And saying “I’m sorry” isn’t good enough. He never turned himself in or accepted the consequences of his actions. Since he never faced any consequences for the massacre, I have a hard time forgiving him. It’s only at the end of a RETURN OF THE JEDI that he ever accepts any consequences for what he’s done, by choosing to sacrifice his own life to save that of his son.

    And your claim for Portman might be plausible…if racial equality hadn’t been her great big accomplishment in the last movie. I’m sure plenty of people thought that the race of Jar Jars were all nothing more than a bunch of savages, yet in that movie, she’s shown as a hero for being willing to look past that and reach out to them. She’s dull as dishwater and has no discernible personality, but at least with her, I buy that she’s a hero (at least in THE PHANTOM MENACE, not so much in the other two- especially REVENGE OF THE SITH). So she's able to look past the stereotypes for the race of Jar Jars, but not for the Sand People because…that’s what the plot requires.

    As for identical flaws? Not even close. I’m not going to pretend that the original trilogy is perfect. It occasionally has some clunky dialogue and awkward line deliveries. Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher don’t exactly give the world’s most polished performances in the first movie (both do much better jobs in the sequels). And RETURN OF THE JEDI has a million flaws that I could easily pick at. But what the original trilogy had was a solid story that was told incredibly well, with great characters that were likable and easy to relate to. It has a warmth and humanity to it that the prequels sorely lack. The only character in the prequels who’s consistently compelling, relatable and likable is, oddly enough, the Emperor. He’s the only character I always understand and the only one I always like. Honestly, on those rare occasions when I revisit these movies, I always find myself rooting for him. Obi-Wan Kenobi also has some pretty good moments. But aside from the Emperor and occasionally Obi-Wan, I either don’t care about the people in these movies (kid Anakin, Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman) or I outright hate them and find them obnoxious (adult Anakin, Jar Jar Binks). Trying to pretend that the original trilogy is just as awful as the prequel trilogy is fundamentally disingenuous. They are completely different, so much so that not only do they barely feel like the same series, but that people complained when THE FORCE AWAKENS actually felt like a STAR WARS movie. While I agree that THE FORCE AWAKENS could’ve had a more original plot, I don’t think it needed to reinvent the wheel, the way some people do. In my opinion, it probably should’ve done what THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK did, which is to take the story in a new direction while still maintaining the look and feel of STAR WARS.
     
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  8. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013

    How do you know they are innocent? Kidnapping and torturing a woman to death isn't what I would call innocent. What the sand people did is similar to what some native amercian tribes practiced with captives. Warriors would sometimes bring live captives back so the whole tribe including women and children could slowly torture the captive to death. It was considered a very honorable death for the captive who was expected to maintain composure during the whole ordeal. If they showed any fear or pain they would be tortured worse. They even would take breaks and give the captive water and food and allow them to recover between torture sessions, not out of mercy but to keep them alive longer to prolong their suffering.

    It is implied in the film that Shimi was subjected to this slow torture death and likely the women and children were involved. The whole scene is based on the Searchers, instead of like Marty rescuing his sister, Anakin fails to save his mother and flips out. Overall there are very grey aspects to the scene. The sand people as portrayed by the films are not innocents.

    Kuro Comparing Gungans to sand people is laughable, it is like comparing apples to turds, just ridiculous.
     
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  9. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011

    You mean the scene where Obi-Wan brings up a fond memory and is rewarded with a splash of cold water to the face as Anakin smugly reminds him that he rescued Obi-Wan? He does this smugly, contemptuously, as if he wasn't thrilled to have rescued Obi-Wan. Anakin drops a total stink bomb in the elevator that just kills any semblance of friendship. It's as if he resents rescuing Obi-Wan, and bizarrely, it's repeated in ROTS right after they were joking about who should get credit for rescuing the Chancellor.

    That could have been a scene in which they share affection, but it wasn't. Instead, it's a scene where Obi-Wan offers affection, and Anakin throws it right back in his face.

    It's quite clear that Obi-Wan was opening the door for a bit of levity and good humor between them when he mentions that time they fell into a nest of gundarks. Anakin could have smiled, even a little reluctant upturned corner of his mouth, and returned the humor, but no, he uses it as an opportunity to pump his own ego and remind Obi-Wan that it is he who is the stronger of the two. Obi-Wan extends an olive branch, and Anakin uses the moment to assert his dominance.
     
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  10. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    And not just the men. But the women and the children too.” You do realize that child murder is almost universally considered one of the most reprehensible things a person can possibly do? Hell, Sergio Leone used the murder of a kid to shock the audience with ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST, to show that, unlike what the audience expects of Henry Fonda, Frank is a thoroughly irredeemable and reprehensible psychopath:



    That’s how Cheyenne establishes his innocence later in the movie. “I’ll kill just about anybody. Never a kid.” Simple rule of storytelling. If you want people to believe that your main character is a good person, don’t make him a child murderer. Seemingly everyone except George Lucas understands that.
     
  11. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2015
    I think the intent behind those types of scenes is to create a rapport between them where Anakin "teases" Obi-Wan a lot for the goofy things he does & gets himself into, probably as a lighter aspect of their dynamic (I guess to contrast with all the bickering). Additionally, Anakin is also supposed to be really nervous & anxious in that elevator scene. So Hayden now has to convey that he's teasing Obi-Wan and that he's feeling really nervous. And unfortunately, I don't think Hayden was able to pull that off successfully because, given his tone & stern-looking face, it feels like Anakin is just arrogantly telling Obi-Wan off. That's one of the big reasons that I never felt a friendly bond between those two in AOTC; and the one scene that was designed to do this just ends up making things worse.

    Although, I do think it's improved in ROTS. Remember Anakin telling Obi-Wan not to make loose wire jokes? That's something, right? So yeah, I think that's what Lucas was going for anyway. But the execution & acting leave a lot to be desired.
     
  12. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Sorry, I cannot accept this ridiculous idea of children being complicit in the crimes of their parents. If they do take part in some kind of ritual (which is pure speculation), they are certainly not responsible for being forced by their parents to partake in events they don't understand. It's interesting that you mention the Searchers and the history of Native Americans. You are apparently arguing, that it would be oke for somebody to kill all the tribes children, young and old, because their parents tortured a prisoner.

    I think it's curious that apparently everyone in the torture scene is presumed evil, except Anakin, when the only person we see commiting mass murder is Anakin. Sure, we see Shmi's been tortured, and she dies, but we don't see who tortured her. Was it a single individual? Was it a small group? Was it the entire tribe? Did some or perhaps many object to Shmi's torture? The reality is that nobody knows what happened and who's responsible. Anakin simply held them all responsible, and sentenced them all to death without due process. His was a revenge attack. Revenge is the dark side, an act of evil. This is a statement of fact, unlike your assumptions of the Sand People's collective responsibility.
     
  13. seventhbeacon

    seventhbeacon Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2015
    I believe the children are our future.
     
  14. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    I actually have to admit that whenever I hear that phrase, I always think of George Carlin. “Children can’t be our future because by the time the future arrives, they’ll no longer be children, so blow me!”

    Am I the only one who considers Carlin to be a terrific candidate for greatest philosopher of the 20th century?
     
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  15. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Kuro, you constantly insult all Prequel fans by saying we lack an eye for subtly. For one thing, the OT uses dialogue scenes just as much as the PT to convey information. There are long dialogue scenes in both

    Yet you miss countless scenes where Anakin and Obi-Wan are friendly.

    I still fail to see how Luke changing personality and skill level completely from ESB to ROTJ is any different from Anakin changing from TPM to AOTC.

    For one thing, I can actually see why Anakin would be different, having changed his entire life between films.

    Yes, Luke did learn about Vader and lose the duel. But I still can't see how we would be able to beat Vader in the next film with no on-screen training.

    You say Han risks his life for his friends. So does Anakin for Obi-Wan, and for Shmi, and for Padme, and for Palpatine. Han is also selfish, wants money, and ignores Leia's protestations about kissing her.
     
  16. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    So guilty until proven innocent then?

    So you think all native Americans are guilty due to the actions of some of them?

    There were some people that did think like that back in day and whole tribes of native Americans were wiped out.

    How is it "likely" that the children were involved?
    You assume this in order to make Anakin's actions less terrible but it isn't based on anything found in the film.
    And I think that it is disproven by Anakin saying "And not just the men, but the women and the children."
    If they are just as bad as the men, why have him say this?
    No I think this inclusion was to show that Anakin didn't just kill the guilty, he killed everyone, guilty and innocent alike.

    Shmi was taken yes and she had been beaten badly and she died from her injuries.
    Very horrible no doubt about it.
    But that she was taken just for the sake of torture I find senseless.
    She there about a month and since she didn't die of thirst or hunger, they must have fed her.
    And wasting very valuable food and water just so that you can slowly torture a woman to death, aside for utterly horrible, is totally stupid. Water is very scarce on Tatooine so why would the Tuskens waste it like this?

    It just as, if not more likely that she was taken to be used as slave labor. That she was made to work.
    And maybe she tried to flee and got beaten. This is quite terrible as well and no excuse to the Tuskens but at least this isn't totally senseless.

    Again guilty until proven innocent or guilt by association, neither are things I find very nice.
    There isn't anything much "grey" about this scene. Anakin systematically searches the entire camp and slaughters every last Tusken he finds, down to the smallest child.
    This is mass murder, small scale genocide possibly.

    A common defense is that Anakin didn't know what he was doing and was killing anything moving.
    I have a hard time with that since he says he killed them all which to me implies a search of the whole camp, which was quite big. This would take time, time enough for Anakin to calm down and being this methodical while totally enraged is a bit odd.

    And I think that Lucas did intend for this scene to be very dark, that Anakin had done something really bad.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well I have seen people defend Anakin by comparing Tuskens with Orcs or even Demons.

    And every time this type of argument comes up, I feel uncomfortable.
    "The Tuskens aren't human, they are subhuman, they are monsters, they are born evil and can't ever be anything but evil. So Anakin killing all of them is no big deal."
    I seriously doubt this is what Lucas was going for and this is not an argument that I can ever buy.

    Kuro.

    I agree in part with you but tone down the bashing of the PT fans. You are not doing your case any favors by being rude and try to respect the "Films not Fans" rule here.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  17. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Well I have seen people defend Anakin by comparing Tuskens with Orcs or even Demons. Well they are like them.

    And every time this type of argument comes up, I feel uncomfortable.

    That is the whole idea of the scene.

    "The Tuskens aren't human, they are subhuman, they are monsters, they are born evil and can't ever be anything but evil. So Anakin killing all of them is no big deal."

    They may not be born evil, but they are socialized from birth to be ruthless murders in a toxic society that values death and violence. A rough example would be with house cats. If a kitten is socialized with humans within its few months of life, it will like humans and likely be a tame cat. However, past a certain age, if a kitten isn't socialized with humans, then it can never be tamed and will remain feral for life.

    I seriously doubt this is what Lucas was going for and this is not an argument that I can ever buy.

    Then you probably be dead meat on Tatooine then. If Lucas wanted something less grey he could have picked something besides ruthless marauders who kill and maim every chance they get. Don't forget the line, they were like animals so I slaughtered them like animals. The sand people indeed did not act better than animals. The whole scene is supposed to be disturbingly grey, which makes it more disturbing. Don't forget the same tribe also killed or maimed 40 farmers trying to rescue her.

    Well they are not human, they are a alien lifeforms, and we don't know how mentally capable they are. They could still be evolved barely above beasts. Every scene we ever see them they are always hostile, either taking pop shots at podracers, abducting and murdering people, etc. They never showed any attempt at reasoning.

    Kuro.

    I agree in part with you but tone down the bashing of the PT fans. You are not doing your case any favors by being rude and try to respect the "Films not Fans" rule here.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark[/quote]
     
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  18. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Much like your assumption that only a few raiders were responsible, even in that case the rest would still be accomplices by letting the torturing continue and not helping her. No matter what, the tribe is guilty, what percentage to what extend is subjective, but not an assumption. However, the film does infer all of them by being based on real life practices, no matter if you like it or not. History is filled with people commiting all sorts of horrible acts. I do agree Anakin's actions was revenge, and wrong to an extent, As Anakin stated, they acted like animals so he slaughtered them like animals, meaning the tribe reaped what they sowed and the sins of the fathers befell on their sons. Overall the scene is supposed to be ambiguous and grey, which makes it all the more disturbing. Afterall, if Anakin didn't kill the tribe, it would have continued to kill and maim innocent people, and who knows how many innocents deaths were prevented by eliminating the tribe of know hostile marauders who are only shown being violent and attacking others? It is difficult to sympathize with such violent people. If the films presented benevolent tribes of sand people along with hostile tribes, then maybe I could sympathize with them like you do. However none of the SW films do, even the Searchers which you seem to disparage at least shows benevolent tribes such as Look's tribe and puts Ethan's racism in a dark light.
     
  19. heels1785

    heels1785 Skywalker Saga + JCC Manager / Finally Won A Draft star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Let me make one thing clear here, folks. Sneaking in a phrase like "I don't expect prequel fans to know X, or appreciate Y" is the equivalent of a personal attack, considering where you are making your post. You are flaming a group of people who appreciate the films that this board is devoted to.

    Leave the snark at home, or find another place to post.
     
  20. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    How are they accomplices? You’re implying that they had a duty to rescue. How do you know that they were even capable of rescuing his mom? Maybe she was just kidnapped by a couple of warlords who caused the rest of the tribe to submit to their will via fear.

    Am I saying that that’s what actually happened? No. I'm simply asserting that you don’t know. For all you know, 95% of the people Anakin were just as much victims of the kidnappers as his mom was.

    But instead, you assume that they were all guilty. Now here’s the problem with that.

    Never
    ASSUME!

    Because when you
    ASSUME,
    you make an
    ASS
    out of
    U
    and
    ME!

    And Anakin is also an ASS for ASSuming they were all guilty.

    Also,by your logic, I possess the right to nuke the city of Los Angeles. If anybody on this forum was in the city of Los Angeles on October 15, 1988, I want you to know that Slicer87 believes I have the right to kill you.
     
    KaleeshEyes and DarthCricketer like this.
  21. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Farewell, this thread. Overboard ye went, and overboard ye perished
     
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