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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga What Do We, As Star Wars Fans, Actually Want Star Wars To Be About and Should the Saga Continue?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Plan741, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    What does that exactly mean, and does any movie in the Saga qualify for your definition. In other words, objectively most critics would agree Ben Hur was a masterpiece, but something like Earnest Saves Christmas would not be. But I suspect most Star Wars fans would put at least one or two movies into the category of a grand artistic masterpiece.
     
  2. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    It's fairly subjective but I guess I mean something cinematic and worthy, something attempting transcendence of the art form and the genre (without wishing to sound like a pretentious ****). For me, it must be a film that offers breathtaking visuals and sounds, and really immerse you in a world that challenges you on its own terms. Ben Hur, yes. Lawrence of Arabia. The Holy Mountain. 2001. I'd argue Star Wars and ESB wouldn't feel out of place in a list with those films. A couple of others come close, but even when SW films fall short artistically I feel they were aiming for something higher (be it technological innovation, or various unrealised goals).

    As a franchise every aspect of SW almost purely exists to sell you every other aspect of it, but I think Disney could exploit a well made film better than a ...less well made film.
     
  3. TripleZero

    TripleZero Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2017
    As far as films go, I want them to be connected with the mythology and world history that George Lucas has a clear interest in. I believe that his love for The Hero's Journey, along with Joseph Campbell's works is what made Star Wars such an unprecedented franchise to begin with. That, and a fun, well-written story with great characters.

    Disney era Star Wars films have been sorely lacking in this. I thought TFA introduced good characters and was essentially a stepping stone to lead them into interesting situations, with or without the mythology. Unfortunately, TLJ completely dropped the ball for me.

    As long as there's a worthwhile to tell, that's what counts for me. But making a movie every year indicates quantity over quality, which makes Star Wars films feel like less of an event and more of "just another movie" as time goes on.
     
  4. ralfyman

    ralfyman Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Jan 9, 2018
    That's why I wrote it is no longer the case for the two recent films.
     
  5. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Luke had like 8 minutes of Jedi training from Kenobi and maybe a few days with Yoda. Come on.
     
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  6. ralfyman

    ralfyman Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Jan 9, 2018
    Could have been more if he received training from Obi Wan's force ghost during the three years from ANH to ESB, and it turns out that even that was not enough.

    And what happens in TLJ shows that even additional decades were not sufficient.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
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  7. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    Not sufficient to do what exactly?
    Luke worked perfectly fine in terms of his skill-level. The decisions he made had nothing to do with mastering the force.

    While I do think that Rey's progress in TFA was very weird and not quite fitting with the other movies, I don't think that there was ever anything that indicated it took a ton of training to gain some capabilities with the force. Anakin already did things through the force before he had even heard about it. Granted, he is a special case, being the chosen one and all, but that still shows that you don't always need training from a Jedi or Sith to use the force in some way.

    It's not like TLJ left without any explanation for Rey's strength. It connected her abilities to those of Kylo Ren. This isn't something that we have seen in Star Wars before, and I don't think the "balance" they are going for fits to that mentioned in the PT, but one can hardly say that it has always been clearly defined how the force works.

    I have no idea where in the PT it is supposed to say that. The Jedi have protected the Republic for a long time, that doesn't mean that they were the keepers of knowledge in the galaxy. Nor do I see any connection between what you wrote in that comment and what happened in the new movies.
    It's not like the Jedi are going anywhere either. Sometimes I feel certain people didn't even bother understanding the end of TLJ. It does not, in any way, shape or form, indicate that the Jedi will be gone. On the contrary, Luke's final statement made it very clear that he changed his mind. That was the whole point, accepting the failures of the past and moving on.

    I find that comment rather arrogant. You throw actual comments from Lucas out of the window, based on flimsy excuses like you feeling that they can't be right, and then go on and act as if your ideas about what Lucas actually thinks are a definite fact. You have zero idea what he actually thinks, so stop pretending that you do.

    Even if one would take certain reports about TFA seriously, which indicated that he wasn't a huge fan of the movie (which isn't the same as disliking it), there are zero reports like that about Rogue One and TLJ. On the contrary, every report stated that he was thrilled with Rogue One and very happy with TLJ. Are VII and VIII the movies he would have made, probably not, that doesn't mean he has to be unhappy about what was actually delivered. If anything, going by his own words, he always wanted people to try something new and different every time, which most definately fits with what Johnson has done. From that point of view, TLJ would seem like a better fit for him than TFA.
     
  8. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    https://goo.gl/images/6V3SfQ

    “There are a lot of movies that are badly made that I love, and there are a lot of movies that are just beautifully made but I don't like them. And critics have a tendency - that's all they focus on, which is, "I like it. I don't like it. It's good. It's bad."

    TLJ only half asses the “new” coat of paint it entails while adding snippets of diverging aspects within the movie that deviates from the norm. Case In point the ROTJ “homage” scene.


    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/a...thinks-last-jedi-was-beautifully-made-1067092
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  9. ralfyman

    ralfyman Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Jan 9, 2018
    To do what he did in TLJ.

    Only if he did nothing during the intervening period between ROTJ and TFA.

    Rey's (removed) background supports my argument. Referring to Anakin only strengthens my point. Apparently, Rey is even better than the Chosen One.

    Is this in reference to Snoke allowing that "connection"?

    The way I see it, given the three points above, not only has the idea of the Force been significantly altered, it's also driven by inconsistencies (as seen in the scene between Snoke, Kylo, and Ren).

    They could not believe that the Sith had returned given the point that they had ceased to exist a thousand years before. As for being keepers of knowledge, one character pointed out that if it's not in the Jedi archives, then it doesn't exist. The new movies ignore all that by now revealing that the Jedi were never relevant in the first place, that it was all based on vanity (as Luke pointed out). And the latest movie, together with the ending , shows not only major plot holes but Luke going against everything that he believed in.

    There were no failures given the ending of ROTJ. Instead, they were created in TLJ and in the backstory leading to that (i,e., Luke training Ben).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2018
  10. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Should the saga continue after Episode 9? To tell you the truth I really think they should end it after 9 and stick with New movies. 9 is enough for the saga
     
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  11. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Let's wait and see what 9 brings to the table.
     
  12. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    We shall. I just hope that if it is the end. It is a good conclusion to this 66 year old story. In universe time anyway.
     
  13. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I know that he loves RO, but I’m talking about the Saga.
    All we know about his opinion on TLJ is that he thought it was beautifully made, which says nothing about whether or not he likes it.
    If he’d said that he was very happy with TLJ, you can bet we’d have heard about it.

    The only opinion we’ve heard from GL regarding his personal feelings toward the new trilogy is what he said before TFA came out, which is that he wasn’t happy with the direction they took with it. Now, he might still like TFA and TLJ as individual movie experiences, but the fact remains that he left the project because he was unhappy with the general approach and so far, nothing has indicated a change of heart.

    If he does have a change of heart, I’ll be the first to acknowledge that.
    As it stands, though, I can’t imagine that he will.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  14. Plan741

    Plan741 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    I also doubt he will too. The SW story movies are really doing a great job and are pure fun as far as I can tell, complementing the saga without trying to compete with it. Gives the creators a chance to experiment and show us something new. I can see where that would appeal to Lucas, given what he tried to do with the Clone Wars. Not heeding his vision on the ST will be ultimately what undoes my obsession with the series because it will always be gnawing at my brain what his ending would have been. I wanted to see what 30 years after ROTJ looked like to him and to know what he tried to accomplish with telling that story.
     
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  15. yodaman_reborn

    yodaman_reborn Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009
    You know, you look at interviews of him around the time of him selling Star Wars to Disney, it feels like he wants to tell the story of 7-9, but because of age and his previous experience with the prequels he just doesn't want to do it himself anymore, but wants someone else to help him. I think he thought he could trust Disney and Kathleen Kennedy to at least tell his 7-9 story on the screen before they decided to go on and do their own thing. It seems he was blind-sided by them dumping his treatments so early in the process which is kind of sad since making his 7-9 was a big reason he sold it to Disney in the first place. If Disney had honored Lucas's wish and made his version of 7-9, I think the Disney Star Wars era would have gotten off to a much better start. We would have had a more cohesive 1-9 saga that kept to his mythology and Campbellian themes which had built with the first 6 films. I think an anti-prequel sentiment from people like JJ Abrams and Simon Peg only made that fissure worse as they came in with the thought of, "we know Star Wars better than George and we can these films better than him." Honestly if JJ had taken the time to really examine the root and structure of Star Wars, read Joseph Campbell, did his homework, understood what makes a Star Wars film a Star Wars film, then I think I would have been happy. But he couldn't even sit down with a creative artist and say, let's make a new spaceship that rivals the X-wings and Tie fighters, a new type of planet that's never been seen before, or work with Kasden to create new factions that weren't just retreads. There's just no courage or creativity. It looks like Star Wars on the outside, but not on the inside. I think at least Rian Johnson tried to take chances. However I think he got into a reverse trap that Abrams did. Where Abrams thought, "what would the fans expect," Johnson took the opposite and asked, "what would fans not expect." In the end, the question should have been, "what would Lucas or Campbell expect?"

    The anthologies, ironically, have the best chance to succeed because they are not tied to the constraints and stories of the original six films. They're not exactly Star Wars movies, but movies taking place in the Star Wars universe. Where Star Wars movies are more related to fantasies, mythologies and fairy tales in space, the anthologies can be something totally different. Rogue One takes a more war/action movie tone. Solo looks to be taking a heist movie tone. I mean, you can make any kind of movie and place it into the Star Wars universe. You can make a comedy, a horror film, a romance, etc. It doesn't have to be a true to the original saga tenor at all and it has that freedom to veer as far away as it wants. However, if the mythological/fantasy structure of the original Star Wars films are still desired, then someone needs to put the effort to understand at a more deeper level. Rian Johnson didn't exactly make his movie consistent in character, structure and story of the original films or even the film it just followed. Perhaps not being shackled to the original saga will help his new trilogy, but he really needs to take his time and do his research about Star Wars if his intent is to create new mythological film.

    I've never watched the Clone Wars cartoon or Rebels, mostly because I didn't feel it would ever quite capture the things I loved about the original saga. That's not to say they are in any ways bad and I have heard many people state how good they really are, but rather they are not in my realm of interest. With Favreau's new TV series or even Benioff's and Weiss's film series, those might have some passing interest for me, but I don't really have any excitement for them. While the sequel trilogy frustrates me, I'm heading into the future of Star Wars less with either excitement or hate, but rather more with apathy.
     
  16. Plan741

    Plan741 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    All true. Clone wars might actually be up your alley. It really gave Lucas and team time to build the events between AOTC and Sith. We spent a lot of time with different people's and cultures, worlds and all its denizens. We spent a lot of time with Anakin, though voiced by Matt Lanter, such that he is my most adored character and really became the legendary hero he was described as. We get to know the clones personally and find them to be deeply loyal and devoted soldiers to their generals, which made Sidious' s tampering with them all the more vile and twisted . And though it's animated and that's hard to shift to for a minute it quickly just becomes an extension of the films
     
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  17. Benoda

    Benoda Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2018
    I recently learned that I was a Star Wars fan prior to my long term memory kicking in. And one of my earliest memories is watching ESB (the movie had such an impact on me it may have been the event which actually kicked my memory into gear) with my dad and brother, and SW has been a significant part of my family since.

    I don't think it's possible for most people to agree on what makes Star Wars Star Wars because it's something that's become personal to us all throughout our lives. It likely has a different meaning and significance to each of us. Despite my brother and I growing up together enjoying SW, we both have different aspects we focus on enjoying and delving into. We also disagree about some SW topics, and we love SW nonetheless. So, I think it's important that whatever makes SW SW to each of us is able to stay intact in the future. How exactly to do this, I'm not 100% sure, but I think it might likely entail the Canon-Master openly stating something along the lines of encouraging people to "pick the stories you like as your SW story, nothing else matters". Whatever it is that draws someone to SW, any change/expansion of that initial story that grabbed them and evoked their love of the saga has the capacity to retroactively forcibly change their interpretation of what they love and therefore induce cognitive dissonance when it's implied that "this is the story, take it or leave it". While I've witnessed people taking this stance upon themselves, it would likely help the fandom (and any fandom) to have TPTB overtly state this to ease tensions. This would likely make all future SW entries more digestible to everyone regardless of the entry. Another possible route would be to set up multiple timelines/universes, but looks like this was discussed above.

    I would love to see a SW expansion into things we haven't seen set in the galaxy: horror, comedy, more general war drama, history drama, etc. Kind of one offs just exploring different aspects of the galaxy; sort of, be in the SW universe but not really be a SW movie, per se. But, I think that Saga should stop at 9. There's something magical about the OT that I don't think is replicable, even if it is just the nostalgia factor (which I don't think it entirely is given how SW grew up in it's own right), and I've always felt it's better to end on a strong note rather than to fade away into mediocrity or become a jumbled mess.
     
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  18. Plan741

    Plan741 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 22, 2015
    The thing with Star Wars is that you've got so many people anticipating the story of future installments with for hard expectations of what they do and do not want to see . Few people are calm enough just to sit back and take it in at face value. We were all able to do this once in our lives, probably when we watched SW for the first time. I was 7 in 1977, so I was at the right age to ingest the movies for what they were. I didn't spend three years between films arguing with others about how the story should be. I mean, we had 16 years to build the events of the prequels up in our minds. I loved them and they exceeded my expectations . I said goodbye to saga films in 2005 and made peace with it. Then they announced the ST. I was thrilled up to the point Lucas sold it. I started sweating then, especially as Abrams started acting as if he knew how to make an SW film better than Lucas. He wasn't going to. Rian Johnson wanted to challenge everything we know about Star Wars. He challenged my opinion that the ST actually had a story to tell that was relevant to the previous 6 films.

    SW can succeed under its new ownership as soon as they figure out that we don't need the originals remade for us. If that means ending the Skywalker saga then so be it, just plan a good series of stories independent from the ones that were done already and much better. Now as for the anthology series: thumbs up. These are worthy, creative and fun...like Star Wars is supposed to be!
     
  19. Prime Jedi

    Prime Jedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    I want 9 to be the end of the saga (if the Skywalker story is tied up nicely) and then I want either a TV series or films to delve into the mysteries of the force, even expanding upon the Ones of Mortis, and everything that happened in Yoda's arc at the end of the Clone Wars. Possibly even have this set during the Old Republic, or maybe even a little bit before TPM.

    Oh, and an Obi-Wan standalone film with Ewan McGregor. This more than anything.
     
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  20. Plan741

    Plan741 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 22, 2015
    I like your style Master Jedi. I'd watch a movie of Obi Wan going grocery shopping. And you're right, CW really opened my eyes up to a much larger view of the force as well as the galaxy at large. This is why I am having a hard time with the confined, scaled back aesthetic of the ST right now. SW has been wide open since 1999 with all kinds of species, denizens, worlds, droids, vehicles and action. Where I don't mind tight, focused stories centering on a few characters, I need them to move through a set that feels like a real dynamic place and not....a set. Jakku wasn't even as detailed as the original, unaltered sets of ANH. L achieved that on a fraction of TFAs budget. The Jedi temple was some rock huts I immediately recognize as British Isles from the archaeological studies I did in college. I like ancient but put a spacefaring spin on it please. I don't think Disney can really put a finger on what made the PT so infuriating to some that they broke down the OT into its constituent parts and pigeonholed themselves into a formulaic framework where sets needed to be smaller, background characters and daily life within their environments kept simple, and the plot too similar to that of 4-6.

    Hopefully Abrams can wrap up the Skywalker saga for this outing, but it won't be what Lucas envisioned or even a noteworthy consideration as compared to the period placed at the end of ROTJ.

    Lucas said it himself: the story ends at 6. Anything later would be "made up."
     
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  21. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    While Lucas may have implied the first part of that statement. He most certainly did not say the second. Unless you show me that I am wrong, I am going to assume you are bashing the ST.
     
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  22. Prime Jedi

    Prime Jedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    I do agree that the force in the ST feels rather constricted. We haven't really learned anything new about the force, besides "darkness rises and light to meet it." This is another reason why I wish Snoke's "identity" was revealed: it could open up to a lot of other stories. They could have even revealed more about the Force from Maz Kanata's character, but I doubt she will be in Episode 9. Overall, I like the ST, but I feel it is lacking in regards to explaining and adding to the mystery of the force.

    Oh, and it would be amazing if Obi-Wan in the standalone film had to try to protect Baby Luke as he gets into trouble with Looney Tunes-esque comedy.[face_rofl]
     
  23. Plan741

    Plan741 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Not at all. Kylo Ren and Rey are two of my favorite characters in all SW . I am sold on the characters, the premise and what has been shown so far. I do, however, see some issues arising that compromises the quality of the trilogy external to events on screen. And these issues originate from the current franchise runners, both from what I think I have observed and from statements made from key figures involved in the production of the new movies. I have seen the new films as many times in theater as the previous entries and a fraction of that at home. But in doing so I can't help but think they are driven to distraction focusing on reiterating the look, sound and feel of SW while executing a story that is recognizable to the casual and die hard fan base alike. And they are hitting the marks. But therein lies the problem for me, personally. I am voicing only what I think and feel, which is not intended to malign the ST but to lend my observations to the discussion at large and with respect. Obviously I adore GL and his creation. I do realize he is no longer involved in the production of the new movies and I understand what that means for its direction. But when they are so desperate to honor his methods and aesthetic without repeating his mistakes (of which I see none, but I am just a man), I see a contradiction in terms there. The man just made movies he loved with hopes we'd like it too. I never for an instant gathered that GL had an issue getting the look and feel of the films to match the story. It was all part and parcel of his normal process as the father of the series. The mission statement to make SW great again implies it wasn't great already. One can only strive to honor something they cherish by carrying on its legacy with pride and distinction with present acts, not setting forth to right its wrongs today at the expense of tomorrow.

    That's my only real gripe, not bashing anything (which is a term I understand to mean inject vitriol into something without a shred of courtesy for those who aren't of the same persuasion, often with the goal in mind to offend others and incite arguments).
     
  24. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Fair enough.
     
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  25. Plan741

    Plan741 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
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