Saga What Do We, As Star Wars Fans, Actually Want Star Wars To Be About and Should the Saga Continue?

http://theforce.net/jedicouncil/editorials/111597.shtml

"[The whole story has] six episodes....If I ever went beyond that, it would be something that was made up. I really don't have any notion other than 'Gee, it would be interesting to do Luke Skywalker later on.' It wouldn't be part of the main story, but a sequel to this thing."

EDIT: Sorry, someone else already said this, my bad!

 

IMHO, the sega should have ended with ROTS rather than end up as a zombie franchise trying to follow sjw trends for pity points.

 

Star Wars is just doing Star Wars. The "SJW trends" (what the frack does that even mean anymore?) are the exact kind of stuff you can find in the franchise long before Disney was ever involved. Heck, if ANH came out today, what're the odds that the SJW conspiracy theorists would be arguing that Leia's stepping up to save her own rescue was some SJW propaganda or attack on white males, or both?

 

I don't know if anyone else feels this way or not, but as a kid watching SW it formed my opinion that females were equal, smart and capable alongside males. It also taught me that people from all sorts of backgrounds and races could work together despite their differences. ANH quickly flipped the damsel in distress cliche prevalent in films up to that point on its head and showed something different.

That's what SW does and that's why people all around the world appreciate it. The -isms of our world don't factor there, save for facism, which is presented onscreen as a wrong and something to be fought against.

That's exactly why these negative views from out world have no place here in forum when discussing SW. It doesn't fit together with the values of the subject we've all come here to discuss.

 

Something I think that is really lost is the clarity of message between good and evil. In these uncertain times I think that is more important than ever instead of reducing the story to a perceived realisium. SW is an Epic tale of Good vs Evil. It now feels muddled, confused and off message.

There was a time when the Pope and other religions spoke that SW was important culturally as it broke through to the younger generations with a message of hope and morality. It did that with me.

I wish instead of choosing adhoc writers who are far from visionary’s much more time was spent and a story instead a list of blockbuster checkboxes and # of explosions.

I don’t have any interest in it continuing in its current form. I’m not invested in the story.

 

There is so much to the complexity and sheer simplicity of SW as we know it, and far too many aspects of it that appeals to fans far and wide. Yet no one aspect of it defines it: for some it is the fantasy, others the adventure. For some it is the concept, the vehicles and tech. Others the world's and it's inhabitants. Others still it is the concept of the force and in particular the struggle between those who use it. And in that struggle is the simplest aspect we crave, the clash of good vs evil. Yet another aspect is family: sons, daughters, fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters. Mix that with the bond of friends, struggling for freedom, and you have a story that speaks to people across generations and time, across countries and languages alike. This was something I think was achieved already in episodes 1 through 6, in part because of Lucas and his research into the subject of hero's and mythology coupled with his unique vision of science fiction spliced with the content of his youthful entertainment, the serials and pulp fiction of the 50s.

Though I think there are still great stories to tell in the SW universe, I don't believe those will fit in the saga as well as the previous entries. The writers know the style but lack the background and frame of reference from whence Lucas derived his classic characters and story. I am not saying that someone wont come along and present a tale that captures us all by storm again; no, that can surely happen, but only if it can break away from emulating what has been done previously and forge a new sensibility of right versus wrong, heroism against villainy alongside friends and family, or even an entirely new concept beyond these.

The Clone Wars introduced many characters that were of the gffa yet apart from it in terms of culture and understanding. The Nightsisters of Dathomir are a great example: sharing a galaxy with both the Jedi and Sith, they communed with the force in ways clearly separate from either order. Their beliefs, customs, rituals and approach to the galaxy fit well within what we have seen and yet stood apart. The galaxy, throughout time, surely was full of people's like and unlike these. Surely there were heroes and villains before that weren't Skywalkers, or Jedi. Surely there were wars fought without an empire or a rebellion, and there must have been conflict amongst kingdoms or sectors, not just republic's and conferderacies. The formula to SW is not in the mold already made, but in the imagination and in the dreams of the galaxy far, far away.

 

I guess I thought that the new movies were still dealing with good vs. evil, just in different ways. IMHO, I think that the prequels muddled that more; not out of saying that good and evil exist, but just showing how hard it can be to tell them apart and how evil can cloak itself as good. I find that interesting (esp. here in the States where we have those in power trying to brand "wrong" as "right" through lies, gaslighting, and other tactics), but I can see that it's not quite the same as the original movies while were more up front about stuff.

 

I think you are totally right about that. The OT had "a certain point of view" on the good vs evil plight that was black and white, cut and dried. The PT presented it in a more realistic way in my opinion, by showing that good and evil were points of view and that there are heroes and villains on both sides (straight from ROTS opening crawl). It was deliciously wicked that the most evil of the SW galaxy was the chancellor, the one and same who orchestrated the galaxy's struggle and to whom even the Jedi served. The ST, I think, posits the notion that if we don't all join together and fight oppression anywhere it flourishes then we all are doomed to live with the consequences.

 

@WebLurker @Plan741 Don’t disagree with either of your posts and it would be how I would explain the message as its progressed as well however I just like the clarity of the original message. As a fan its what I would have liked to see a return to.

 

I wouldn't mind it either, but it requires that the characters on screen understand it and react accordingly. We unfortunately as a human race don't see the classic themes at work anymore in our own time. It would be a challenge to hearken back to it in today's sensibility without seeming naive or dumbed down. Not to say it's return wouldn't be needful or unwelcome . As Agent Coulson said to Cap in Avengers "we could use a little 'old fashioned' ".

 

Fair enough. I think there's room for both the simpler and more complex in the franchise. I could see after the heavier TLJ movie having a final act that's a little more straightforward with the morality working.

 

Something that has bothered me though is I bought into Luke and Snoke's concurrent visions of there being so much more as presented in the trailers. Where does that stand now? Snoke's visions are little more than wishful hopes aren't they and I'm not sure how Luke closes himself off to the force and sees there is more to anything when he just wants to die? I think even Snoke predicting "war" added to the letdown of the conclusion to TLJ as I thought we would see a widening conflict.

 

I agree that there are plenty of more stories to tell in the Star Wars universe. To me the most interesting question going into the sequel trilogy was what happens to heroes who achieve everything they set out to do. For example, what would MLK Jr, JFK, etc. be doing today if they were alive? What would Luke, Han, and Leia be doing now? New problems and issues always arise in our society. So the next logical question going into the sequel trilogy would be what new issues or problems in the GFFA would cause major conflict.

The state of the galaxy in The Force Awakens doesn't make any sense. The set up doesn't feel like a natural progression from ROTJ. Instead, it feels too much like a repeat of the OT. Sure, history does repeat itself sometimes, but the aesthetics in TFA are too similar to the OT, which makes things confusing when you watch the films back to back.

 

I like the good vs. evil theme that originated in the OT. Even in the PT, I didn't really think that theme was undercut. Good just became manipulated and complacent. They tried to defeat evil, but they were legit outsmarted and defeated. R1, where they briefly explored good guys doing bad things for a good reason, seemed like an appropriate amount of adding complications to a still very simple theme. This theme wasn't deviated from, in my book, until the nihilism of TLJ.

When Luke blamed the Jedi for Sideous, SW jumped the shark for what I come to this franchise for. When they promoted Kylo and Rey as opposite sides of the same coin, equal in every way, like nothing matters except that you pick a side that's essentially the same as the other only opposite, I had the same vibe. All this yin/yang stuff I honestly can't stand in SW. I view falling to the dark side as a cancer, and balance is in controlling one's dark side tendencies so they don't get out of hand. If LF wants to change the lore to make it what they perceive to be more interesting as a yin and yang dark side = light, that's fine, but it's really not for me. I need genocide to be judged and lead to consequences. I have never been interested in the arguments made by some fans that the Rebellion was a group of terrorists that killed innocents on the Death Star, and the ST isn't swaying me on similar logic.

But that was really long. I meant to just acknowledge the conversation that has been happening in here and add my thoughts. For me I think maybe the most important thing that is the core of SW is family. It's why I have always gone back to it. Very simple, fairy tale themes not about silly romantic love at first sight (which has zero appeal to me), but about the timeless bonds of family. I don't mean blood family only. Leia will always be Leia Organa to me, daughter of Rebel leader Bail Organa, who also happens to be Luke's sister. But just in general how characters are shaped by these bonds that have such a profound influence on their lives and choices, that's what I really love. It makes this fantastical setting so grounded and relatable.

Both TFA and TLJ really abandoned these themes in my view. There was zero context provided for the Kylo/Han confrontation in TFA beyond the fact of their relation. That was enough for Vader and Luke because they didn't actually know each other before the movies. Kylo also didn't mention his mother that entire movie. In TLJ the mother/son bond felt almost entirely irrelevant to the plot, save for one moment at the beginning that was never mentioned again and didn't seem to play any real role in the development of either Kylo or Leia through the movie. Luke abandoned his family in TLJ, something I assumed at the end of TFA wouldn't be the case and would be explained. From all that we know of the background, Kylo could have been unrelated to Luke and their story would look exactly the same. Meanwhile, reactions all around to Han's death felt practically non-existent. Rey asked Kylo about it once, he essentially shrugged, and they never brought it up again. Luke reacted off screen. Leia reacted recently in a comic. I never felt deep bonds between any of these characters, and that is the saddest part because it's really why I was looking forward to in these movies. Without the bonds, they're like chess pieces moving around a board. I read a lot of sci fi so I can be okay with that when I love the universe enough, and that's how I still love TFA. But it is what has always defined SW to me as special.

 

In A New Hope we really get to see the big 3 interact with each other, get to know one another. By the end of the film you really do get a sense of friendship between them all. That's one thing TFA really got right with Rey and Finn; Poe and Finn. I believed their friendship was genuine. I wish JJ Abrams had the foresight to include Poe in the Jakku scenes with Finn and Rey. This would solve two problems in the film. The first being Rey is able to fly the Millennium Falcon even though she has never left the planet. The second being Han, Rey, etc. going to Maz Kanata's castle instead of going straight to the Resistance's base.

The entire sequence at Maz Kanata's castle always seemed unnecessary to me. If Poe was with the group then they would be able to go directly to the Resistance's base. Have Han, Leia, and Chewie all together at the Resistance base from the get go. Han and Leia being separated doesn't serve much purpose to me. It actually regresses Han as an character.

The group dynamic of friends/family is missing from TLJ. It's a huge reason why TLJ doesn't really work for me. TFA did a great job with building a friendship between these characters and then in TLJ they don't spend any time together.

 

I'd like to see Luke training a new group of Jedi, who all have their own ideas on what it means to be a Jedi.
Maybe deal with other Force groups that have popped up as well.
Maybe have the Empire still be around as a Remnant but force them and the Republic to work together to fight the new threat.
Give us an actual next generation of the Skywalker/Solo family and throw in some friends for them. See how they deal with the pressures of being the offspring of the OT Big 3. How do people on the street see them. Make their own paths.
With their own hopes, desires and fears. Make it so that we at least have one person not fall to the Dark Side.
Tie the new threat into a possible reason why Palpatine created the Death Star, Darth Plagueis, a fallen Jedi because of the Clone Wars, Order 66, etc.
Or maybe tie stuff in from the start of the Jedi and or Sith.

 

I'm a little lost here.

 

Oh. Leave it with me to see if I can improve the message. I did make a bit of a leap and appreciate your point.

 

I can understand a lot of the criticisms of TLJ, or at least the perspectives from which they come, but "nihilism" doesn't track at all. The movie is explicitly concerned with hope and inspiration. Compared to a lot of the grimdark fare that's so popular these days, TLJ is practically chirpy.

 

@WebLurker

Ok, I have really tried quite hard and I can’t put into words anything that really conveys my point. I don’t even know what my point is or I’m just clutching at feelings, headcanon and unrealistic expectations. This is the best I can do. I stand by my first comment as I think SW was an epic tale of Good vs Evil. It now feels muddled, confused and off message. I still like the original concepts better.



However, even though I say that I liked the original message I was not closed to a story of growth. I think I actually wanted it to happen but I feel we have been cheated that. To use an example and something I bought into is Luke and Snoke's dialogs at the start of the first two trailers for TLJ. At the time I assumed they were really significant and I was excited by what they might have meant. Luke when telling Rey to “breath” appears to be suggesting there being “so much more”. I assumed this to mean so much more than we knew. By extension also what Luke knew. Which of cause justified his search for the first temple etc. Snoke then appears to be suggesting something “truly special” in his monolog. Not that different to "so much more". I read more into it than was there, my mistake, but I thought it was a great direction as to me it suggested that even though they were on different sides Luke and Snoke seemed to see similar outcomes. I liked that idea of different agendas but similar outcomes. Maybe for each side their version of Utopia.

Luke

Snoke ​

The problem of cause is the neither means anything as Luke had really shut himself off from the force and lost faith so his words aren’t even the visions I assumed let along anything meaningful. With Snoke who knows what his vision was all about or if it just didn’t include him being around himself?

So for me, it was a bit of a false start thinking something great was coming, an expanse of meaning and understanding but then not an awful lot of anything materializing. Again I was mistaken but Snoke’s statement of “after the war” in his monolog also suggested to me that the conflict between good and evil was going to escalate. Maybe the war to end wars across the stars, who knows. But instead of the ST story being an epic battle building to an amazing conclusion it seems to have shrunk to a personal battle between Rey and Kylo. Their mentors both dead and the galaxy a long way from war with an conquering FO and ineffective Resistance. Kylo besides doing bad things doesn’t seem to be driven by the Dark Side. He searches for the dark side, unlike the Emperor and Vader where it manifests and consumed their souls. Rey seems to be on a similar search without really knowing what she is looking for. At least she has some old books but they could be close to worthless since the Jedi had not sort them out earlier and stored them in the most secure of their archives. One of the few decisions I agree with in TLJ is making the actual worth of the books quite questionable.

So after saying all that I think I finally get back to my point of everything being muddled instead of the original clarity. There is no sense of an all-powerful dark side that consumes with hate and anger and makes the user powerful. There is also no sense of light side that Luke should know all too well that guides his actions and destiny. The force has reduced to supernatural powers and has lost its aura as an influencing power on the individual. It is now only a power to command.

Anyway, I hope the above makes some sense and isn't just ranting.

 

I think the issues we are having with the new movies simply boils down to this: Lucas created the Jedi and Sith, the Force and the universe in which it exists based on all the influences he personally had knowledge and experience in. Told from his unique outlook, coupled with a variety of classic mythological tropes studied in works of Joseph Campbell, near and far eastern religions and classic storytelling frameworks, he developed obviously a powerful and lasting piece of fiction that has and still inspires the imagination of several generations. He sold the franchise and all the content that goes with it. New writers have a library of concepts and tools from which they can make movies from. However, those writers bring into their work their own philosophical points of view and individualistic experience on issues such as family, friends, good vs evil, etc. They can write SW, but they can't write it with the same ideology that Lucas as an individual had. One would need to study him and apply his understanding of the content to their own writings. This is of course impossible and would not be in the slightest bit attractive to any writers looking to create their own work.

So in close, the narrative in the two new films comes from a collaborative story group along with the directors. Abrams injected his own POV into TFA and TLJ was told from RJs POV. This gives us two movies with opposing points of view on all the concepts we have come to expect. As a fan base, we have to get used to the idea that the material will be presented like this from now out. The original framework and storytelling procedure will never quite line up, but be an opportunity for a series of creators to do their own thing with the narrative. This seems to work well with the anthology series, but episodic saga films need consistency in direction, voice and overall message in order to be a solid, connecting storyline that is told in three parts. Maybe with RJs new trilogy we will see that. Otherwise the episodes will have a chain letter format that in foresight will seem schizophrenic under any scrutiny.

 

It’s interesting how differently people can perceive these things. I think TLJ is incredibly depressing and grimdark, thus the message of hope (that’s imo tacked on at the end) rings completely false in that context.

I mean, the galaxy post-genocide rolled over for the FO in TLJ. They abandoned the people that destroyed SKB after that genocide to be slaughtered. The movie itself is a 2.5 hour slow paced massacre. Our hero is more concerned with the soul of the guy massacring our good guys than anything else. Meanwhile, Luke explicitly blames Sideous on the Jedi, while hanging out on his planet abandoning his family and the galaxy, and Rey doesn’t argue with this point. It’s presented as though it’s absolute truth.

Nihilism is essentially the idea that nothing matters. In TLJ, nothing really seems to matter to me. The victories from the OT don’t matter. They’re all undone. In the light versus dark side question, it doesn’t matter. Rey reacts by giving into dark side emotions in her confrontation with Luke, to no consequence. In fact, imo she’s portrayed as correct while she does it. What also isn’t portrayed to matter in TLJ is the overwhelming defeat of our heroes. The message of hope essentially says, “it doesn’t matter that the galaxy has fallen again into fascism. It doesn’t matter that the Resistance horribly failed and was almost entirely slaughtered. The genocide of TFA doesn’t matter because the galaxy didn’t do anything about it. Han’s death doesn’t matter because it’s only mentioned once on screen, and there it is flippantly shrugged off. Mass death doesn’t matter. Those lives don’t matter. That Leia inspired an army of people to follow her only to lose and be slaughtered doesn’t matter. Only hope matters.” It’s like there are no stakes because no matter the loss, they can tack on a feel good message of hope and it’s all good. The problem to me is hollow sentiment can’t replace actual, physical outcomes.

 

Okay.

Fair enough.

Okay. I don't specifically recall what I thought the trailers were suggesting Luke meant (although I was surprised at how hostile he was at the idea of training someone else). In the case of Snoke, I always thought he was talking about either Kylo or Rey, I just couldn't tell which it was. So I guess I had different expectations than you did.

I'd need to see the movie again to refresh my memory on the finer points of that.

I forget what and where the "after the war" stuff was.

I don't know about that. I feel like we have two facets of the war; the Force side and the military side. Kind of like spiritual warfare and physical warfare wrapped together, if that makes any sense. I think there's still a chance for the military side to have the big fight. I guess I kinda like that the Force side has is more of a personal thing; I think it contrasts the larger war more; you have the broad scope fate of the galaxy hanging in the balance and then a theater of it where the souls of two people are at stake. (Mileage may vary.)

I did like the way that it makes him different, although I do think that he's very much consumed by the dark side. Maybe the difference between a drug addict who does things to get their fix versus someone who does stuff both to earn approval and because it frees them to do what they want?

I thought she was more looking for a family, and in a larger sense, a place to belong and the slot she plugs into. Notice how when Kylo tries to talk her over to her side, he doesn't offer political or Force power, but sells it as the idea that she would have meaning and have a unit to belong to (not true, obviously, but that's the story he peddles).

I thought that books were indicated to have value (Yoda does note that they contain wisdom, his saying that Rey didn't need anything from the library was after she'd taken the books, leaving it nothing more than an empty tree). I took the whole thing with them to be more along the lines of a "faith without works is dead," to borrow from Christian theology. However, it is an interesting idea to examine and I'm curious how the books will play into the franchise's future.

That's an interesting conclusion. I do know that the novelization says that Luke was right about the Jedi and others like them serve the Force and not the other way round. I guess, IMHO, we see the dark side and the light manifest more in character's decisions in this story then as external sources (Kylo is on the dark side because of what he chose to do, Rey on the light because of her decisions, etc.).

Maybe to borrow theological terms, TLJ is more interested exploring human nature and how faith and morality intersect with that and not so much God's will (or whatever deities or supernatural forces you believe in) and that grand scheme for the world. Or to use Star Wars terms, TLJ plays more with the Living Force than the Cosmic Force (or "Unifying Force" for you Legends acolytes)?

Oh, no, I think you did a good job explaining yourself. Not sure I totally agree with everything, but I think you explained yourself well and in a way where others can see what you mean. These are the kinds of forum discussions I love to have.