What do we do about Same-Sex Marriage?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Dec 4, 2003.

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  1. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    irish: I don't fault you your beliefs, or any other Catholic (my husband was raised Catholic and actually feels the way you do about many issues, although he's much more moderate). However, I have to admit that the reason I got away from Christianity is that saying that I believe in God and Jesus was no longer good enough--I had to compromise many of my own principles, mainly that all people are equal, regardless of gender (and I do consider abortion a gender issue) or sexual orientation or religion, and all people who try to make the world a better place are worthy of eternal salvation.

    I have no problem with God or Jesus, but the exclusionary viewpoints of the Christian religion, and the extent that it promotes sexism and homophobia, were too much for me. It is against my very being to accept these things as the truth.

    If that makes me a non-Christian, as I was told many times that it does, then so be it--I'll deal with that. I won't call myself something I'm not. But sometimes I do wonder what happened to "All those who believe in me will have eternal life."
  2. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    SRB_Jedi_Knight, equal rights protections are not often heralded as far-left-wing extremist ideas.

    Interesting perspective.

  3. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    "But sometimes I do wonder what happened to 'All those who believe in me will have eternal life.'"

    Belief brings forth works. If someone doesn't show many good works (in Jesus' name, thus following the Law which He approved of), chances are they don't truly believe in Him. And when I say "believe", I mean "set Him up as your God".
  4. irishjedi49 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2002
    star 3
    The Church, Cheveyo. You don't have to accept its authority at all. Catholics should, especially ones in public life. Or do you disagree with my Islam example?

    If a self-professed Muslim went around loudly proclaiming that alcohol was great, everyone who wants to should be allowed to drink it, and furthermore Jesus was the Lord and Savior of the world and Mohammed wasn't, would anyone seriously continue to call that person a Muslim?

    Would other devout Muslims appreciate this guy being trotted out by Western sympathizers saying, "See? This guy's a Muslim and he thinks Jesus and alcohol are great! One person's Islam is as valid as another's!" I don't think so.

    As for birth control, no, Catholics shouldn't use it. But it's not quite as fundamental a teaching as the grave evil represented by abortion or the disordered immorality of homosexual actions. And at least people who do that privately aren't loudly and publically proclaiming its "goodness" for the world to see.

    a_g - I think you are generally quite honest about your own beliefs, which I respect. (Though as a woman myself, I think abortion is more than just a gender issue - though insofar as it is a gender issue, it hurts women.) I think it's important for others to be honest as well, though, and while Christianity's core belief is the redemption of the world through the sacrifice of the living God in Christ, there's a lot more to living your life as a Christian than just believing that privately. None of us can see into anyone's heart, and I don't judge individuals as people for that reason - I have no authority (nor would I want it). But you can judge people by their outward actions as being consistent or not with a belief in Christ and his teachings. And as a Catholic, the teachings of the Magisterium, all grounded in Scripture, are things you simply can't openly flaunt if you still are going to represent yourself as a Catholic.

    I just have a feeling some people love trotting out, "See? He's a Catholic and he supports gay marriage!" when true Catholics may not support gay marriage, as it is flatly contradictory to God's word and the teachings of the Church (which are consistent with that word).
  5. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Is it just me, or did I (unintentionally) derail this thread by noting Newsom identifies himself as a Catholic in my illustration that he is not doing this to promote his own beliefs?


  6. SRB_Jedi_Knight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Well I'll repost my last post from the prior page and hopefully we will get back on topic:

    One of the things I am very happy about with this whole situation in SF taking place now is that this is an election year.

    Democrats do not like this one way or the other. Prominent Democrats like Barney Frank and Barbara Boxer don't want this to happen in an election year, although they support it. What does that tell us? :D


    As this continues we're going to get a number of other states as this spreads like wildfire. It's going to put Democrats on the spot. They're going to have to find a way of dealing with this one way or the other. One of the things you have to understand about gay marriage, aside being just about homosexuality, is that it's liberalism. These are ultra-left-wing liberal extremists that are behind all of this. Whether they be environmentalists or gay activists or animal rights people or the feminists, they're all liberals. So let 'em shine. After all the majority of American's are against this issue. Therefore the majority will definitely consider this a huge campaign issue.

    Already we see liberals who have supported gay marriage come out against it due to it being an election year. Why is this? If they support it then support it, but as we all know the liberals don't like the truth about them to be show. A perfect example is Kerry and Dean. Why do you think Dean imploded? It's because he was a liberal in every sense of the word, he wore his liberalism on his sleeve for everyone to see, that is why the liberal higher ups did everything they could to pull the rug out from under him and effectively terminated his campaign.

    A county in New Mexico has just said that they are going to begin extending marriage licenses for same-sex couples. This is good, ladies and gentlemen. New Mexico is a battleground state, a tossup state, a state the Republicans will need to win the White House. Democrats will be hustling to New Mexico to try to shut this one down, too. Barney Frank will be on a plane. New Mexico is next in line, and then we'll have Chicago. It's just a matter of time till the democrats and liberals do so much damage to their hopes of winning the coming election and their own party. I actually enjoy sitting back and watching the liberals implode. :D
  7. irishjedi49 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2002
    star 3
    But Cheveyo, these are his own beliefs. He believes in gay marriage, in abortion, and a host of things that simply aren't Catholic. So better to just say what he supports, recognizing these things are consistent with his beliefs, and leave out the Catholic thing entirely. Which was my point.

    Newsom's not doing any principled thing like piously following the law in spite of his own personal, religious beliefs. He's made it very clear his personal beliefs drive his desire to flout the law with gay marriage (or promote abortion), and religion has nothing to do with it.
  8. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Hurray for the all-or-nothing mentality of religion!




    Don't leave me.
    Don't ignore me.
    Don't kill me!

  9. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    The_Fireman: I was raised Lutheran, and was taught that we are saved by grace, not works. After all, if works were enough to save us, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die.

    Different denominations teach different things on this subject, however.

    irish: I don't think anyone should be pointing at Gavin Newsome and saying "He's a Catholic! He believes in gay marriage!" and holding him up as an example of what Catholics believe. If people want to know what Catholics believe, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you guys have a catechism of some sort that people can read?

    SRB: Don't even get me started on what politicians will do to win an election.

    The fact is that no one is liberal enough for me. I took a quiz seeing where my values matched up according to various candidates' voting records, and Kunicich came out the closest match for me, with Kerry right behind him. Dubya was last of course.

    But the fact that Dean had the guts to say what he really believed and thus is no longer in the election pisses me off.
  10. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Well I'll repost my last post from the prior page and hopefully we will get back on topic...

    SRB, reposting it won't bring this back on track; however, perhaps responding to my response to the first iteration would. Care to? ;) Or perhaps you can add to what has already been posted?

    But Cheveyo, these are his own beliefs. He believes in gay marriage, in abortion, and a host of things that simply aren't Catholic. So better to just say what he supports, recognizing these things are consistent with his beliefs, and leave out the Catholic thing entirely. Which was my point.

    But, Irish, he is Catholic. he attends Catholic church. I bet he takes communion. I bet the church welcomes him every week.

    He's Catholic. You can't tell him he's not. Get over it.

    As an aside, many Catholics share his "beliefs" regarding abortion rights, contraception, and homosexuality. They are not Catholic either?

    Says who, and by what authority?

    EDIT: The fact is that no one is liberal enough for me. I took a quiz seeing where my values matched up according to various candidates' voting records, and Kunicich came out the closest match for me, with Kerry right behind him. Dubya was last of course.

    Yeah, I took one of those political spectrum tests to see if I was really a liberal... turns out I am, and am closest in ideals to Mahatma Gandhi.

    I can live with that. :D

  11. irishjedi49 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2002
    star 3
    a_g - See Cheveyo's post for an example of what I'm talking about.

    Cheveyo, I already explained quite well enough what I'm talking about, and if you choose to ignore it, whatever. But stop holding out Newsom as a Catholic in what he's doing. As far as gay marriage goes, his beliefs and his actions upon those beliefs are in direct contradiction to what the Church teaches and Newsom should not be recognized as being in communion with the Catholic Church by the media (or by his own bishop, if the bishop had guts like Daschle's or Kerry's bishops) because of that.
  12. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    "The_Fireman: I was raised Lutheran, and was taught that we are saved by grace, not works. After all, if works were enough to save us, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die.

    Different denominations teach different things on this subject, however."

    Right, and I agree with that. But grace is applied through faith, and faith without works is dead. What kind of faith that IS true doesn't bring about works that testify to said faith?

    The point is, if you look at the entire context of the accounts of Jesus' life, they show Him promoting the Law of God, not doing away with it. If we truly have faith in Him, our life will bear witness to that by following His commands. When someone's life doesn't bear witness in such a way, they most likely do not even have true faith in Him, and thus truly do not have Him in their lives.
  13. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    But stop holding out Newsom as a Catholic in what he's doing.

    I'm terribly sorry. I didn't realize I was the one calling him Catholic! All this time, I thought it was he, himself, who had professed his Catholicness! How liberally evil of me to suggest he knows to what religion he belongs.

    As I said above, he's Catholic. get over it.

    EDIT: I forgot to add Nelson Mandela and HH the Dalai Lama to the list of those ideals I share.

    you can take te test yourself here at PoliticalCompass.org

    (Off topic, but a fun self-examination)


  14. irishjedi49 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2002
    star 3
    But, Irish, he is Catholic. he attends Catholic church. I bet he takes communion. . .

    As I said above, he's Catholic.


    Looks like you are, in fact, the one calling him Catholic. (And telling me to "get over it.") I don't dispute he calls himself that, too. But he shouldn't, and neither should you hold him out as being one. One may not actively support abortion and gay marriage and be in communion with the Catholic Church. That is very clearly what the Church teaches. Even if the Muslim in my example prayed to Mecca five times a day, he still wouldn't able to represent himself as a Muslim if he denied the teachings of Mohammed (or even promoted gay marriage!) and actively flouted them in public. And it would be like an intentional taunt, throwing up your hands in mock innocence, if you kept holding this up and saying "Well, he is a Muslim. he prays five times a day. so what if supports gay marriage. and loves Jesus. who are you to say what Islam is or is not about. he's muslim. Get over it."
  15. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Looks like you are, in fact, the one calling him Catholic. (And telling me to "get over it.") I don't dispute he calls himself that, too. But he shouldn't, and neither should you hold him out as being one.

    I'm not calling him Catholic. I am saying that by his own definition he IS Catholic. If he had been Wiccan, I would have noted that he is Wiccan. but that's not what he said. He said Catholic. Whether his God believes he truly is or not is up to him and his God, not you. I'm willing to take him at his word.

    Likewise, as an example, I'm willing to say Judge Moore is Christian, even though he does not "love his enemies" (or anyone who disagrees with his beliefs, for that matter).

    Also, priests who abuse young children are not excommunicated from the Church for not only their beliefs and ideals, but their actions.

    If you truly believe that those who support 1 or all of the following issues (abortion rights, sodomy, contraception, homosexuality, etc), then how many Catholics do you think would be in existence today?

    Not many. Ahem... Get over it. ;)

    by the way... "neither should I?" who died and made you my headmistress? ;)



  16. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    If Newsom is a Catholic, then he should be excommunicated.

    Ever wonder why people have general disdain for lawyers, OWM? The law is clear, yet you guys will twist and skew it as best you can to get around it, as your answer exempifies. Newsom clearly not only violated the law in Prop 22, but he is also issuing illegal documentation - which is clearly against state law.
  17. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    then he should be excommunicated.

    Should the guilty priests also be excommunicated? Are they still considered Catholic? which do you think has done more harm? An act of abuse or a belief?

    Newsom clearly not only violated the law in Prop 22, but he is also issuing illegal documentation - which is clearly against state law.

    Not so clear, apparently, as the city attorney and two judges seem to disagree with you. The courts will eventually decide in City of San Francisco v. State of California. If a referendum is unconstitutional, must a government official sworn to uphold the Constitution still obey the law? That seems to be the question at hand.

    Which is superior in legality: The state Constitution or a public referendum?

    That would be the former.

  18. GarthSchmader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2003
    star 4
    "What do we do about Same-Sex Marriage?" asketh the title...

    If you're Gay or Lesbian, go to Frisco and get hitched!

    What to do about opposite sex marriage? Tha't's my question!
  19. Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 1999
    star 6
    If a self-professed Muslim went around loudly proclaiming that alcohol was great, everyone who wants to should be allowed to drink it, and furthermore Jesus was the Lord and Savior of the world and Mohammed wasn't, would anyone seriously continue to call that person a Muslim?

    See, there is a minor problem with this argument. The difference is between Dogma and "Scripture". Alot the Catholic Church says must be followed by Catholics is not specifically in the Bible, yet it is "church law", i.e. Dogma. Dogma always gets in the way of true faith, and that holds for all faiths, In my mind.

    If a person such as myself does good deeds, loves his neighbors, and tries to help people through educating them, and working in volunteer services doing "God's Work" and following the example of Jesus? But what if that same person, such as myself, does not believe in any religion, and my doubt the existance of a God, am I still not doing "God's Work"?
  20. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    Should the guilty priests also be excommunicated?


    Yes they should, but that's a different issue than this one.

    ---

    State law is clear on the matter, regardless of what a renegade mayor thinks it should be. The law is the law, and he should have properly challenged it if he felt there was a grevance against his constituency. Instead, he took the law into his own hands outside of his authority to do so. You asked which one is superior - and the answer is the public referendum which was supported by the State Constitution.

    You know where all of this is going to eventually end up?

    A US Constitutional Amendment.
  21. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    You know where all of this is going to eventually end up?

    A US Constitutional Amendment.



    The next step (after the US Supreme Court ruling) is exactly that (a move for an amendment), as is proper in the republic.

    However, you are aware of how difficult it is to pass an amendment, right? A society has to really want it, unlike a law, which comparatively is much easier to pass, and not always with the consent of the people or with the good of the people in mind.

  22. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    The FMA has the required support (2/3rds in both Houses, and 3/4 of the States) to pass.
  23. Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 1999
    star 6
    I thought it was 3/4 required?


    Yeah, I took one of those political spectrum tests to see if I was really a liberal... turns out I am, and am closest in ideals to Mahatma Gandhi.

    Sorry I just caught this. I think that's probably closest to where I fall as well, however I haven't taken a quiz that includes him. Have you read his autobiography? I'm actually starting it right now, while I'm reading a couple of other books.
  24. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    2/3rds of both Houses of Congress and 3/4 of the States. (I edited the above to reflect the correct percentage of the States).

    The required support is there.
  25. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    The required support is there.

    No, it isn't.

    Washington post
    A Feb. 5-8 poll by the National Annenberg Election Survey asked: "Would you favor or oppose an amendment to the U.S. Constitution saying that no state can allow two men to marry each other or two women to marry each other?" Of the 814 adults surveyed, 49 percent opposed an amendment, while 42 percent favored it.

    That was a reversal of an Annenberg poll a few days earlier that asked, "Would you favor or oppose an amendment to the U.S. Constitution that would allow marriage only between a man and a woman?" With that wording, 59 percent were in favor and 33 percent were opposed.


    Even with the more lenient poll, allowing unions if not marriage, the 2/3 majority is not there.

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