PT What do you LIKE about the prequels

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by WhiskeyGold, Nov 17, 2013.

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  1. Ambervikings91 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 2
    i like the visual presentation of them, they look incredible and i like seeing saber fights that aren't boring, theres a lot of cool stuff about them actually
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  2. Green Gogol Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2014
    I think why people were disappointed with the prequels is because it's very different from the Classic trilogy.

    The Classic trilogy is the story of a humble nobody that joins the fight against the great evil, goes up through the ranks and finally defeat the great evil through military action. It's an adventure story. It's about innocence, friendship, altruism, love and hope.

    The Prequel trilogy is the story of arrogant and blind fools that rules a decadent galaxy and gets their ass kicked by the evil genius through machiavellian manipulation. It's a political drama. It's about selfishness, arrogance, individualism, loss and fear.

    And I like the prequels for that reason. It's not more of the same. It's a complete reversal of the situation from the classic trilogy. The Classic trilogy answers this question: How did the rebellion win? The prequel trilogy answers this question: Why did the Old Republic fail?

    Look at the lightsaber fights. In the prequel trilogy, it's all flash and no substance. Showy moves, flourishes, looking cool. These guys are show-off, full of excitement. In the Classic trilogy, they get closer to what Yoda preaches. They are calm, at peace. Much more zen. Minimal moves.
    Last edited by Green Gogol, Feb 26, 2014
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  3. Darth Maul Apprentice Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2014
    star 4
    I disagree. The saber fights seem more showy because the fighters have higher skills than everyone from the OT. Their more intense and have just as much dramatic weight to me. What? Watching Maul kill Qui-Gon in front of Obi-Wan is flash and no substance? Seeing Anakin full of rage and taking it to Obi who then cuts off his legs leading him to the Vader suit is flash and no substance? Perhaps that fight went on too long but I wouldn't say that any of the big saber fights were lacking of substance.
  4. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Not in the prequel trilogy I saw. They are "faster, more intense", it doesn't mean they have no substance.
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  5. Green Gogol Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2014
    It don't want to derail the thread with a debate about lightsaber fight. But by substance, I do not mean emotional impact. I mean that twirling your lightsaber is about showing-off and not about winning the fight. I you look closely at the fights in the prequel trilogy, you'll see it's full show-off time in TPM, then it gets gradually less showy as you progress through the trilogy. Maybe it was intended, maybe not. But it makes sense to me. And it makes sense with the fight between Obi-Wan and Vader in a new hope. I don't think Obi-Wan has less skill. Maybe a bit rusty, but to me, it's just a more mature fighting style.

    I've been a martial artist all my life. In a competition, you go for the showy moves, to impress everybody. In a real fight, that's going to get you killed.

    That's my interpretation of the evolution of fighting techniques through all six movies. It works for me.
    Last edited by Green Gogol, Feb 26, 2014
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  6. sharkymcshark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2013
    star 2

    I see where you're coming from but the problem is that Lucas never really actually properly went into the blindness and arrogance of the Jedi order in any meaningful way. All we're left with is most of the audience going 'how did they not sense the most powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy when he was in the same room as them?', 'why didn't Mace Windu take more Jedi with him to arrest Palpatine?', 'why wasn't someone watching Anakin when Mace basically locked him in the council chambers in Episode III?'. That doesn't really amount to a tale of arrogance and blindness. Stupidity, maybe. Poor writing, probably.

    We saw the Jedi manipulated, and betrayed, but we never really saw anything on their arrogance or blindness.

    What do we know about the way of the Jedi from the OT? Patience, do not give in to anger, do not fear death as it is a natural part of life. Generally reasonable things that most people can easily get a grasp on, conceptually.

    The PT added a lot more artificial stuff - no attachments to anything or anyone, taken from your parents at a very young age for the training. These are not natural or familiar to the audience. This doesn't mean that they are bad, but at the same time no meaningful critique of the way of the PT jedi is actually presented to show their blindness or arrogance. In fact, all we see is that the only Jedi breaking these rules, Anakin (trained from too late an age, did form attachments) fell spectacularly and horribly to the dark side.

    Obi Wan Kenobi's pointless twirls from the Phantom Menace called.

    So did that really terrible bit in Revenge of the Sith where they basically stop fighting for about five seconds to twirl their sabers around their bodies (before the 'force push' fight).
    Last edited by sharkymcshark, Feb 26, 2014
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  7. sharkymcshark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2013
    star 2
    EDIT for double
    sharkymcshark threw 6-faced die for: 6 Total: 4
    Last edited by sharkymcshark, Feb 26, 2014
  8. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I think I get what you're saying; even the duels have a role in illustrating the big themes of the Saga. I'm not sure it was intentional in that way, but it works for me.
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  9. Green Gogol Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Mmm, that's another thing I like about the prequel trilogy. Thanks Sharkymcshark for helping me realise this. In the CT, everything is spelled out. I mean, there's almost a big flashing arrow over the head of each hero saying "This is the good guys, those are the guys you root for."

    In the PT, you have to think, you have to interpret. Things are much more subtle. And they are much more open to interpretation I think.
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  10. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    What pointless twirls?

    No, I don't recall any "terrible, 5 seconds bit" on that duel. What I recall was a 2 second shot where they don't hit one another due to how in sync their techniques are (master and apprentice).
  11. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    So Tarkin not evacuating the Death Star ...the Emperor not considering Vader might remember he just wanted to see him dead and thus turn on him or that his troops might lose ... Vader not keeping in mind that Like might rather die than join him ... was also....not arrogant, not blind....but poor writing, probably?
    Arrogance and stupidity are always connected .... but the "poor writing" thing again ... please! Especially since this is the "what you LIKE" thread.

    When is the bold part highlighted in the OT? Not challenging your claim, I'm just not remembering anything like that instantaneously.

    That's why Anakin's aversion to "no attachment" and his longing for the past with his mother should be "natural or familiar to the audience". But then he commited a great sin: he acturally whined about all of these unnatrual and unfamiliar and even anti-human restrictions and that was, obviously for whatever reason, suddenly "not natrual or familiar to (some parts of) the audience" and they started to hate him.

    There's always been "pointless" stuff in lightsaber duels. Remember Obi-Wan's pointless and ridiculously slow twirl during the very first lightsaber duel?
    "That really terrible bit in Revenge of the Sith" has long been interpreted as both fighters "precognizing" each other's moves and therefore not hitting each other's sabers at all but readjusting their next respective moves (because it would be, you know, "pointless" to hit given they know they wouldn't kill each other with that move anyway). It's just an interpretion, sure, but your attitude "it's all pointless" is also just interpretation.
    Style and substance are not mutually exclusive anyway. Quite the contrary: at the best they complement one another.
    Last edited by Samnz, Feb 26, 2014
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  12. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I always liked that spinning sabers piece in ROTS. It never had to make any realistic sense.
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  13. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
  14. Lulu_Mars Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2005
    star 1
  15. sharkymcshark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2013
    star 2
    Each of those things you listed are reasonably competent executions of showing the audience arrogance and go right to the heart of the problem - there is a difference between implication and justification.

    You can imply from Tarkin saying that he didn't consider the rebels a threat refusing to evacuate at the end of ANH that he is arrogant.

    If that short scene where he's told by an officer that there is a threat had been omitted then you'd be left justifying the lack of evacuation as being arrogant. That's the difference - to justify something is to fill to have to explain an illogicality yourself by assuming something not addressed in any way before, whereas to imply something means that you take information you've been given and draw a conclusion on the basis of that.

    So for example, none of the information presented to the audience in any of the prequels could imply that Mace Windu was arrogant, and yet we're left justifying to ourselves that he was arrogant all along because he only took three other masters to arrest Palpatine.

    These faults also exist in the OT too - we're left justifying to ourselves that Leia was in a rush to get to Yavin IV, which is why they flew right there on a ship that they basically knew had a tracker on it. We have to justify that weeks/months passed between the Falcon floating away with the garbage and getting the Bespin because no guide is given at all on the timeframe, except that Luke developed competent Jedi skills.


    "Master Yoda, you can't die!"

    "Strong with the force I am, but not that strong. Twilight is upon me, and soon light must fall. That is the way of things, the way of the Force"

    Luke and Yoda, Return of the Jedi
  16. Green Gogol Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2014
  17. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    I loved that the Clone Wars didn't involve evil clones of good people and/or clones of important characters. I always thought Zahn's Clone Wars were stupid and cliche.
  18. Cyreides Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2014
    star 1
    The only thing that bugs me about the prequels is the podrace, the romance on Naboo, and how quickly all of the awesome villains got killed off. Everything else I love.
  19. Darth Maul Apprentice Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2014
    star 4
    It's funny how there are so many different opinions. I thought the pod race was amazing. One of the best sequences ever put on film IMO.
  20. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    [IMG]
    Last edited by GGrievous, Feb 26, 2014
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  21. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    When I watch that visual -- as a GIF -- I am hypnotized by the red flashing light in the background; and in how it complements the swirling blue blades of Anakin and Obi-Wan. Another sublime blue-red couplet. Warning, warning. Danger, danger. You can even see both visual elements being subtly reflected on the ground.

    The ruddy-reddish shawl of the slaughtered Nute Gunray, once scheming Viceroy of the Trade Federation, also poignantly contrasts with the browns and greys of the the other dead bodies and the cold floor they lie upon. It's almost GL's answer to the "Girl In The Red Coat" from Spielberg's "Schindler's List" -- and a measure, of sorts, of Padme's waning life force, whose body lies similarly motionless in an adjoining part of the complex (another victim of Anakin's crazy Dark Side-fuelled power-trip).

    Star Wars -- and the prequels, especially -- is just fall* of amazing compositions, in my opinion.

    *I meant "full of", of course. Freudian slip. :-B
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Feb 26, 2014
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  22. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    So "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing" when they have obviously returned was not arrogant? Obi-Wan thinking he could train Anakin as good as Qui-Gon or Yoda was not slightly arrogant? "If an item does not appear not appear in our records, it does not exist!" as a variation of "We have the ultimate knowledge" was not presented as the pinnacle of arrogance?

    Ok, but this has not real thematic relevance in the OT, has it? I mean, Luke is never tested in that respect. He is tested to be patient and to prevent anger, but this is a mere line of Yoda's "I'm so wise"-dialogue. The idea that you have to let go and accept death is much more prominent in the PT, imo, because Anakin is directly tested in that respect And his inability to the inevitable is what leads to darkness.

    This leads me to something alse. I've always liked that the Prequels did not reduce Yoda to a one-dimensional man of precocious words. Yoda was fine in the OT, but it would have felt hollow and empty if he hadn't learnt it the hard way in the Prequels. I liked that his wisdom in the PT was more a result of his unique ability to sense the dustubing maldevelopment of the Order and the Republic, although he couldn't grasp it with finality. That makes his acquired wisdom and insight in the OT much more meaningful and personal.
    If anyone says Yoda's character was destroyed in the PT, I can't disagree with them more. Yoda was one of the characters that were enhanced the most. From a decal of common wisdom to a balanced character with his own past, pain, mistakes and lessons.
    Last edited by Samnz, Feb 27, 2014
  23. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Well said about Yoda. The PT has really deepened the somewhat platitudinous ESB.
  24. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    I feel like the main reason I love the prequels is because I love the method that the movies were released. I love that they completed the saga and gave a beginning to the ending that we knew.

    And I did enjoy the lightsaber battles. I know that reason for liking the prequels is frowned upon here, but I can't help but mention how much I loved watching them.
  25. Green Gogol Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Don't feel bad for what you like. The lightsaber battles are really fun.
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