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PT What Do You Think Of Padme Giving Birth to Luke & Leia Scene?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by SkywalkerJedi02, Jul 19, 2013.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Isolde was a horrible wuss, and Catherine Earnshaw invented the concept. Arwen gets a pass, she was old. Not familiar with the others.

    We are apparently defining "wuss" very differently. There are few if any female characters in "classic" literature that I can respect.

    Despair is a part of life, as is losing people one loves. I believe one has a responsibility to try to pull out of it, especially when one has other people depending on him or her, just as a cancer patient in Padme's situation has a responsibility to try chemo, radiation and surgery to at least buy time if those options are available.

    The world does not revolve around any of us, and caving in to despair is not an option; I have no respect whatsoever for Padme for believing that it was.
     
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  2. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 1, 2012
    I don't know why Isolde was a wuss. Cathy's debatable, IMO. Arwen's age doesn't have anything to do with her death, Elves are immune to age; they only seem to die when they're killed in battle or when their hearts are broken.
     
  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    It's been a long time since I read Wuthering Heights so maybe I'm not remembering correctly but what is non-wussy about caving into despair because a man left?
     
  4. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 1, 2012
    She doesn't die because her man left, she dies because she picked the wrong man to marry (my take, anyway). Anyway, what's wussy about it?
     
  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    She should get over it and move on. Should every woman who marries the wrong man just curl into a ball of despair and die? There would be a lot of dead people out there if marrying the wrong person was a reason to give up on life.

    I can't see anything not wussy about it myself.
     
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  6. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 1, 2012
    Once again, it's not a voluntary thing (and it's certainly not a guideline). You were asking for characters who died of a broken heart who weren't wussies to begin with. It's a bit circular to then claim that dying of a broken heart makes them wussies.

    I like your posts, I often agree with them, but I find it difficult to try and understand where you're coming from with this particular thing. You seem to insist on interpreting the death-by-broken-heart trope as somehow a voluntary thing akin to suicide, despite that AFAIK it's never ever been presented that way, not really consistent with how the trope has been used, and that people don't work that way in real life. You dislike that interpretation which I can understand (I don't like that interpretation either)—but you insist on maintaining that interpretation, which I don't understand.
     
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  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I'm more of a science fiction person and not much into overly poetic bull**** in the first place, so you summed up why I don't like it with "people don't work that way in real life." I also think that we had come a long way since I was born with the way female characters have been portrayed in stories, with Leia being one of the great pioneers; and with the ROTS wussification of Padme and her subsequent death by "losing the will to live," Lucas might as well have used a Tardis and gone back 50 years in Hollywood.

    Does my stance make more sense in that light?
     
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  8. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 1, 2012
    No. You seem to insist on interpreting dying by broken heart as a voluntary thing, that it's just a form of suicide. You (1) have no reason to make this interpretation IMO, and (2) don't like that interpretation, so I don't know why you would.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    As I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, dying by broken heart has been documented in our world but in people who generally are old and already have pre-existing health conditions. And if this form of dying by broken heart is not what you're referring to, why wouldn't I interpret "losing the will to live" as a voluntary act? What is the comparison I can make to a phenomenon in our world?

    Seems like "losing the will to live" is a very extreme version of "losing the will to stay away from chocolate ice cream" when one is trying to lose weight, at least when we're defining what "lose the will" means.
     
  10. Zatanna

    Zatanna Jedi Youngling

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    Aug 9, 2013
    Padme losing the will to live was a voluntary act, IMO. However, she was not in her right mind - she had just seen her husband go nuts and try to kill her and the republic she protects turned into a dictatorship run by an evil raisin. So, she intentionally 'lost the will to live' - she just wasn't thinking clearly when she did it.

    The entire "will to live" thing is still BS, though.
     
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  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In the novelization, she seems to think she won't live much longer, during Palpatine's "A Safe and Secure Society" speech:

    Bail couldn't hear Padme over the din, but he could read her lips.
    So this is how liberty dies, she was saying to herself. With cheering, and applause.
    "We can't let this happen!" Bail lurched to his feet. "I have to get to my pod—we can still enter a motion—"
    "No." Her hand seized his arm with astonishing strength, and for the first time since he'd arrived, she looked straight into his eyes. "No, Bail, you can't enter a motion. You can't. Fang Zar has already been arrested, and Tundra Dowmeia, and it won't be long until the entire Delegation of the Two Thousand are declared enemies of the state. You stayed off that list for good reason; don't add your name by what you do today."
    "But I can't just stand by and watch—"
    "You're right. You can't just watch. You have to vote for him."
    "What?"
    "Bail, it's the only way. It's the only hope you have of remaining in a position to do anyone any good. Vote for Palpatine. Vote for the Empire. Make Mon Mothma vote for him too. Be good little Senators. Mind your manners and keep your heads down. And keep doing... all those things we can't talk about. All those things I can't know. Promise me, Bail."
    "Padme, what you're talking about—what we're not talking about—it could take twenty years! Are you under suspicion? What are you going to do?"
    "Don't worry about me," she said distantly. "I don't know I'll live that long."
     
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  12. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 1, 2012
    First of all, I've replied to the "but in people who generally are old and already have pre-existing health conditions" bit by showing you that's not quite the case—it does happen to younger individuals. Regardless, that's not a voluntary act, it happens to those people—mostly because, indeed, of pre-existing conditions. They're very sad, which puts a strain on their heart and because of those pre-existing (and subclinical) conditions, their heart fails, so they die. Death by, literally, broken heart.

    In the trope—possibly based on real life but who knows—people get very sad and then die because of their sadness. Sure it's used in some stories as a sort of "poetic justice" (for instance, Enobarbus betrayed his friend, and when his friend responds with only kindness and understanding, Enobarbus dies of grief. Cathy's another example) but generally it's just used as a tragedy, like in any of the Wagner examples or Elaine of Astelot: person's so sad that person dies of grief, poor person. It's just like dying from a physical illness.

    Padme can't have killed herself because not how the trope works, and it's not consistent with the internal logic of ROTS' tragedy: Padme didn't kill herself, Anakin killed her by making her sad.

    Unlike dying of a broken heart—which has some real-world counterpart rare though it might be—people cannot "wish themselves to die." It doesn't exist. As evidenced that when someone wishes to die for whatever reason, they need to actively kill themselves by jumping off a bridge or whatever method they chose, they can't just wish themselves dead and get it over with. I'm sure you realize this.


    What I can understand is that you don't like it because it's "poetic BS." Sure it's overly Romantic and poetic, and if that's not your thing, you're not going to like it.
     
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  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Alright, we've got a consensus then. I can't respect, like or appreciate a character who dies solely due to "being sad," no pre-existing medical condition in place. You can. Agree to disagree. [face_peace]
     
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  14. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 1, 2012

    Cheers :) [face_coffee]
     
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  15. Zatanna

    Zatanna Jedi Youngling

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    Aug 9, 2013
    Wow, that was shockingly mature. Do all arguments here end like that? Because if so, I really like this place.
     
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  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    This is "an elegant forum. For a more civilized age" :)
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    The arguments between the awesome people do.
     
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  18. Yanksfan

    Yanksfan Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2000
    I just have to say that "losing the will to live" is something you can fight against. It's not the same as a medical condition (such as cancer) where it is outside your control. And generally, people who "lose the will to live" have nothing to live *for*. I think our point is (sorry to speak for you anakinfan, but I think we're on the same page here), is that with two new babies, Padme clearly *had* something to live for. So that's why her death doesn't make sense.

    And if you want to defend the script, and cite all your reasons why this type of death is plausible, then that's fine. But then that goes to our other argument, that if Padme didn't think her two children were reason enough to live, then shame on her.

    I think that's my final two cents on the subject. *bows* It's been a pleasure. ;)
     
  19. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    I liked the whole sequence of the end of the movie quite a lot.

    My only complaint is that I wished the medical technology (during the birth of the twins) had a more sophisticated look to it- it was a little too much like something from the 60's Star Trek TV series, or 2001: A Space Odyssey . Prometheus did a great job with the look of futuristic medical technology; that is the kind of thing I would expect from the ST.
     
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  20. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    I agree re the medical technology. That whole Vader birth scene could have been taken from a Hammer Horror circa 1971. [face_laugh]
     
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  21. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 4, 2012

    I have read that story but it is a quite different context. Tolkien's tale is a fairytale where such things actaully happen fairly often. The very concept of elves, for example, says that they are immortal except for a few lil' things - one of them being dying of sadness. It is an ingrained theme in that universe. Species in that universe actually can the lose the will to live and die by it.
    Padme is a human, non-Force sensitive, "regular person", but presented to us as a fighter, a survivor, a bastion of belief and conviction. The person who brings out the good in Anakin. The person who brings out the good in the Republic. The person who fights for other random people when they are trod upon. And then she simply lies down and dies when her children are at stake?!
    Does not compute.
     
  22. FARK2005

    FARK2005 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 3, 2012
    While it’s true LQT syndrome is difficult to diagnose (in our world) it doesn’t change the fact that the condition will cause a prolonged QT interval which will be seen on an ECG. So, once again, a person suffering from LQC would never be declared completely healthy.
     
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  23. Aegon Starcaster

    Aegon Starcaster Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 27, 2013
    Just stick Ingrid Pitt somewhere in there and Vuala!
     
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  24. Allana_Rey

    Allana_Rey Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I really liked the scene, it was one of my favorites in ROTS. Heartbreaking how Padme only sees her kids for like what...two minutes?
     
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  25. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Ingid Pitt improves any movie scene. Now there's a thread. Rewriting SW scenes to include Ingrid Pitt...
    Ok, back to topic. Ahem...
     
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