What does George Lucas need to do to make a good movie?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by LORDeron_MAULer, May 22, 2003.

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  1. vampire-jing Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2002
    star 3
    much of the dialogue, especially between Anakin & Padme was agonizing to hear & seemed so contrived that I had a hard time immersing myself in those scenes.

    Quite the opposite, the Anakin & Padme scenes are my favorite parts in AOTC, I see awesome chemistry between Hayden and Natalie, the chemistry is one important reason why I love their romance.

    In 1977, when I was 12, Star Wars saved my soul and sanity, Mr. Lucas. I would hop the No. 37 bus from Euclid Avenue in East Cleveland to get to Severance Mall and sit through the movie three times in an afternoon to escape a stepfather who specialized in verbal abuse and mental cruelty.

    At that age, I could've just as easily fallen in with the wrong crowd. Star Wars gave six hours of pure joy on many a dreary Saturday in that year.

    That cast had chemistry. We loved them. We rooted for them.


    I think this quote explain a lot. George M. Thomas's attachment to the OT makes him impossible to view the PT with an open mind, IMHO.
  2. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    All he needs to do is make this movie the way he wants. Don't listen to any critics. The PT is fine the way it is. I want to see Lucas's vision. Not someone else's
  3. Kir Kanos Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 1999
    star 4
    It means "Lots of Luck".

    "Quite the opposite, the Anakin & Padme scenes are my favorite parts in AOTC, I see awesome chemistry between Hayden and Natalie, the chemistry is one important reason why I love their romance"

    I'm glad somebody enjoyed it. You evidently saw something that neither I or any of my friends saw. I'm sure there are many who agree with you, but I think that there are more that don't. Explain to me exactly what it was that Padme saw in Anakin? Was it his incessant whining? His emotional insecurities that caused him to force himself on Padme. Perhaps it was his murderous tendancies, or maybe his blaiming Obi Wan for holding him back so that he couldn't save his mother. He is at odds with everything, especially himself. The only thing Anakin seems to have is his attractive appearance and his slight hint of charm. Perhaps Padme is a sucker for lost causes. I don't get it. ?[face_plain]
    Each to their own I guess. :)

    "It better be Turbo Dark..."

    It will be... when the lights in the theater go out. :p

    I wouldn't expect "Turbo Dark". Its going to remain a PG movie. However, that doesn't mean that it won't be forebodiing & menacing. I don't know how they are going to get away with having Anakin's limbs basically burned off his body, while he is writhing in pain and not get a PG-13 rating for violence. There are of course creative ways of doing this, but its going to be extremely hard to watch, especially for younger viewers.

    If this scene is done right, its going to be arguably one of the most memorable scenes in all of the Star Wars saga. We of course will see this unbelievable lightsaber duel between Obi Wan & Anakin. I can see Obi wan knocking Anakin off of a precipice during the duel. At the last second, Anakin grasps hold of the rock face. Obi Wan reaches out his hand and pleads with Anakin to take it,

    "Anakin take my hand!".

    In a fury of rage, Anakin refuses to, "NO!"

    "Anakin Please!...it doesn't need to be like this. Let me save you!"

    This only makes Anakin more resolute. "I don't need YOU to save me!" Anakin gets this sinister grin on his face and reaches for obi Wan's boot. Obi Wan pulls it away as Anakin falls down into the lava pit screaming as Luke did in the ESB special edition. Obi Wan jumps to the edge & screams after him, "Anakin NOOOO!", but its too late, Anakin is gone. Obi Wan bows his head & closes his eyes at his failure to save Anakin. He gets up and walks away as if the weight of the world is on his shoulders. The camera pans back down to the pit where Anakin fell in & we see the lava begin to bubble up tremendously as if something below it is stirring. It gives way to what appears to be some kind of energy bubble. Inside we see Anakin, his face a rage of fury and emotions. His hair has been singed off and there is a huge scar across one of his cheek bones. As he rises out of the lava like a Phoenix we see that his arms & legs have been burned off as well. All that remains is his head & his torso. Off in the distance we hear a ship take off. Its Obi Wan's Jedi Starfighter. Anakin focuses on it with rage and states something to the effect of, "I'm going to kill you Obi Wan! I will make you pay for what you've done!". No sooner does Obi Wan's ship leave then we hear another ship approaching. Its a Star Destroyer. A shuttle drops out of it with Palptaine, now the Emperor, on board with a bunch of stormtroopers and basically saves Anakin & takes him back to the Star Destroyer...
  4. darth_melvin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 2
    I think that George M. Thomas is right on.

    I enjoyed David Lynch's twin peaks TV series, mainly because he was "reined in" by Mark Frost (from LA Law and others). It was mainly Lynch's baby, but Frost tempered it. But then he made the "Twin Peaks" movie without Frost and it was an incoherent failure.

    Tim Burton made the first Batman movie, and it was great because of the "tempering" of Joel Schumacher. Burton was frustrated, because he couldn't do the one dimensional thing that he usually does; he only knows two moods: dark, and darker. So he made the second movie just the way he wanted and it was monotoned.

    And everyone knows that the stuff McCartney and Lennon wrote together in the Beatles surpasses anything they did on their own.

    Lucas wrote the stories for the Indiana Jones movies... can you imagine what they would be like if he had directed them?

    Sometimes the wisest choice an artist can make is to admit that they need collaboration. Not all of their instincts are good, and they need another's temperament to produce a superior work.

    Everyone knows the famous story about how Lucas fought Kirschner and Harrison Ford tooth and nail about the "I Love You" "I know." scene in ESB. He hated it. If ESB had been done today, Solo would have stiffly replied "I love you too" under Lucas' direction. Flat, unclever, but functional - like Episodes I and II. It was only after audience testing, when it was a favorite scene, that he reluctantly left it in (I'm surprised it stayed in the "special" editions.)

    Look, sometimes Lucas' instincts aren't good - there's the Jar Jar-Eopie farts-fireplace scenes-Howard the Duck side to Lucas. He needs somebody to say, "um, George, maybe that's not a good idea here. How about we try this." He is the executive producer and the creator of one of the most imaginative settings for storytelling (the GFFA) in modern times. That's it. He is not a director or a writer. He delegates other top-notch talent to do art design, cinematography and music scoring? Why can't he just delegate a director and co-writer as well?

    But I suppose another mediocre, flat Star Wars film is better than no Star Wars film at all...
  5. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Totally disagreed witht hat article. Love what we have seen so far. Thought the chemistry between Hayden And Natalie were fine. Love story worked for me. Story was not flat. Was very exciting. And what was wrong with Loyd? I thoght he did a great job. Loved TPM and AOTC and that is a FACT!!!
  6. Kir Kanos Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 1999
    star 4
    I agree with most of what you said Darth Melvin, except that I believe that Lucas is a great artist with a vision. As he says, he see things in a fog & relys on other creative artist to help him clarify that. He is also a fairly decent writer. He did afterall give us the original Star Wars trilogy & the Indiana Jones trilogies. He does however need help with dialogue and not going to far with some of his ideas. His views on Star Wars have changed slightly, being a parent and all, to try to make them more Kid friendly. He needs a critical eye to tell him, like you said, that he is going to far (like making Jar Jar so obnoxious), but also someone that can offer an alternative & not just criticism. That's where Spielberg or other directors would come into the equation.

    Its like many successful artists. Take music groups for example. The first album or two they put out are phenominal. Why? because they've had a good portion of time to put their ideas down, tinker with them & make them better. Almost every great idea or tune they've had from their life has been put into them. Its the culmination of years, not months. When later albums come out, they aren't as good, or seem like they are just regurgitated themes from their last albums. Why? The time span isn't as long between albums & most of their good ideas have been used already.

    I think the same thing goes with the prequels. The basic premise was there, but GL is having to come up with new ideas and in many cases he is reusing ideas he had in the original trilogy. He has also chosen to take on this whole enterprise by himself as far as writing & directing goes. Even though he brought in Jonathan Hales to help with dialogue for Episode II, IMO, it wasn't that successful.
  7. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Actually, I don't really see why people think the dialogue is so bad in the PT. Is it really any better in the OT? Maybe in certain parts - but I liked much of the dialogue in TPM and AOTC - the relationship between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, Palpatine, etc.

    In AOTC, the only dialogue that bugged me was in the interplay between Padme and Anakin "I truly...madly...deeply love you." Oh my God. And the scene near the beginning where Padme was packing - it's awkward.

    But it seems to me that people wanted another Leia instead of Padme. They dislike the fact there's no Han Solo. They wanted a relationship between Padme and Anakin that was more like that of Leia and Han.

    It's pretty obvious that a lot of people have a problem with the PT in the fact that it's different than the OT.

    This happens all the time in music.

    A band like NOFX spends years in the underground scene, then finally with their "White Trash, 2 Heebs and a Bean" album, they start to get really popular and even get airplay on MTV. So everyone thinks they've "sold out", and everything they've put out since then sucks.

    Same thing with U2. Some of my friends said, after every post-Joshua Tree album came out, "Well, it's okay, but it's not really like the Joshua Tree."

    Same thing with Smashing Pumpkins when they released "Adore" after "Melon Collie". There were so=called smashing pumpkins "fans" writing in saying how much they hated the album, and that it didn't deserve to be called a Smashing Pumpkins album.

    The fans can go to...Korriban...for all Lucas should care.

    Don't get me wrong, we've all got ideas on how the PT could have been better, but many of us are grown up now, and I think Lucas is making movies for kids AND adults.

    BTW, I think Episode III will be the darkest of all SW movies, but don't be expecting Reservoir Dogs or Aliens. It's still SW, and the film must get a PG-13 rating. Plus, I don't think Lucas should be doing anything to get it a higher rating - it wouldn't be SW.

    I thought "lol" stood for "laughing out loud". Whoops.;)
  8. darth_melvin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 2
    <<I agree with most of what you said Darth Melvin, except that I believe that Lucas is a great artist with a vision. As he says, he see things in a fog & relys on other creative artist to help him clarify that. He is also a fairly decent writer. He did afterall give us the original Star Wars trilogy & the Indiana Jones trilogies. He does however need help with dialogue and not going to far with some of his ideas. His views on Star Wars have changed slightly, being a parent and all, to try to make them more Kid friendly. He needs a critical eye to tell him, like you said, that he is going to far (like making Jar Jar so obnoxious), but also someone that can offer an alternative & not just criticism. That's where Spielberg or other directors would come into the equation.
    >>

    That's exactly what I was saying - I do believe he's a great artist - the GFFA is an awesome vision. And he's a good story-writer: dialogue is his weakness, and he has admitted that himself (so why not get someone to write dialogue for his good stories?) With direction, someone who can offer alternative ideas is important, like I said: "Um, George, maybe we could go in this direction..."
  9. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    One thing I have to say about that critics letter is....Isn't it a little late to be saying that now? And also who are you to demand things from the man who gave you Star Wars?

    I think thats fundamentally why his whole stance is flawed (as many others are as well), George Lucas created Star Wars and how he makes it and develops it is his business, we are fortunate to be going along for the ride.

    And I, like vampire-jing, really refute the idea that Hayden and Natalie had no chemistry, for a guy I really liked the love story and its partly because the way it was acted.

    Like that critic with his views on the OT, I have invested my emotions in the PT, on its story, its characters and their relationships.
    And what he is complaining about is kinda perposterous because what is said about the PT is easily translated to the OT (some may disagree).
    But its only his biase and long time of getting fond of the OT that has given him this view.

    One question I'd liked answered is when did Star Wars become the fans saga? I thought since Lucas created it , it was his saga to do what he wanted?
    Its a shame he got such obnoxious fans for such a great story, well some of us aren't obnoxious anyway :)
  10. darth_melvin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 2
    We're not demanding anything, we're just stating our opinions, he can obviously do what he wants, it's his baby, but it wouldn't be around without the fans, blah blah blah, it's an old dead horse.

    Does it hurt to say that it just makes more sense, and we have evidence from the OT and Indy, that a little collaboration with George goes a long way?
  11. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    JK, I agree 100% that an artist must follow his vision, even if the final product is inferior, controversial, or unexpected in some way.

    And I wouldn't want Lucas to do anything else...

    that being said, he is not immune to criticism, and some of the stuff (Jar-Jar, the "poodoo" jokes, "yippee!") is rather questionable.

    But for the people slagging the PT, we've still received some brilliant scenes from Mr. Lucas:

    -the opening sequence in TPM, where we immediately get to see what real Jedi can do

    -Palpatine's maneuvering in the Senate

    -the underwater Gungan city

    -the pod race (even if it was too long)

    -the Maul/Jinn/Kenobi fight

    -Obi-Wan crashing thru the window and the entire Coruscant chase scene

    -Yoda teaching the children

    -Obi-Wan and Dex

    -Obi-Wan/Jango in the rain, plus Kamino in general

    -Anakin and Shmi, Anakin's confession

    -Geonosis in general

    -the last brilliant scene in AOTC, with Palpatine et al looking at the Grand Army of the Republic, cut to Anakin and Padme

    That's just a personal sampling of some of my favorite moments from TPM and AOTC. Even with my disagreement with some of the things Lucas has done (and sometimes it DOES seem like he's making it up as he goes along), I still absolutely LOVE the PT.

    And I think Episode III has the potential to be better than TPM and AOTC combined.

    So really, as much as I complain, I'm pretty darn pumped for 2005. And so are you.
  12. sidious1 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 6
    Hi guys, I've just read the letter and we must all agree, opinions aside, that we all feel the same way as this guy. I know that I'd be stoked if GL anounced that Irwin Kirshner was going to direct EIII, and so would you all! TPM was good AOTC was cool BUT ESB was the killer king of all of the SW films.

    "All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain!"
  13. Kir Kanos Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 1999
    star 4
    "I think Episode III has the potential to be better than TPM and AOTC combined"

    I wholeheartedly concur!

    As far as die-hard fans being so in love with the prequel trilogy that people won't allow themselves to like the prequels? That may be the case with some, but I think these people are in the minority. I think that it takes a diehard fan to give the prequels a chance. Everybody was so psyched for the prequels that Episode I sold out almost 2-3 days ahead of time here in Nashville, TN. Unfortunately, most of my friends who aren't die hard fans have hated the prequels. In fact, I had a hard time getting them to come see AOTC. Their claim is that the stories are slow, cheesy, & don't have any characters that they want to root for or even remotely identify with. The majority of the non hard core Star Wars fans I've talked to claim that they won't go see Episode III, which I think is unfortunate because, as you say, it has the potential to be the best one of the three.

    I think Lucasfilm has their work cut out for them in promoting Episode III. I wouldn't expect many people to be camping out for this one in light of the reaction of the general public from the last two movies.
  14. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Garth:

    Well of course Lucas isn't immune to criticism, besides the criticism is often unfounded and based on a lack of understanding and interest in the story he is creating.

    Which is why I'm so baffled by some of tha fans disillusionment.
    And some of them act like they are critics; complaing about bad acting dialogue and special effects. Whatever happened to being a fan of Star Wars come what may? Ah I forgot the old addage of being an adult finally kicked in i guess.

    Anyway I would prefer Lucas to direct Episode 3, and he is funnily enough :D , and thats because he has done a fine job with HIS last two movies.
    But then again the prequels so far have gotten me into the saga that is Star Wars.
  15. Darth Detori Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    Hire someone else to write and direct. What's up with charging people to view content on the website. I guess he has just completely sold out at this point. I still go and see the movie but more because of the name and the OT. It's really sad that he's become a rusty old hack. I commend him for what he did in the past and have no ill will toward him but he has pretty much ruined the PT. I find myself skipping to the battle scenes and lightsaber duels in these movies rather than sitting through them. I must admit that Ep. II was much better than Ep. I but it still lacked that special spark and emotional pull that the originals had. Thank God for DVD.
  16. Vezner Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2001
    star 5
    He totally needs a new directoy. George will forever be the Father of Star Wars but he needs to admit that he has certain limitations that keep his movies from being absolutely great. He needs someone else to direct this baby. It's his last chance...
  17. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    oh ye of little faith.

    The only way to be sure is to WAFO (watch and find out).

    I had my doubts after TPM, but I love AOTC, so I accept Lucas' directorship, even with the inherent flaws.
  18. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "One thing I have to say about that critics letter is....Isn't it a little late to be saying that now? And also who are you to demand things from the man who gave you Star Wars?"

    "One question I'd liked answered is when did Star Wars become the fans saga? I thought since Lucas created it , it was his saga to do what he wanted?"

    Interesting questions, since they really don't pertain to the argument at all. No one said Lucas had to read the letter, just as no one has to see the films. Also, no one said the films weren't Lucas'. Why these types of questions keep reappearing from time to time really baffles me.

    "that being said, he is not immune to criticism, and some of the stuff (Jar-Jar, the "poodoo" jokes, "yippee!") is rather questionable."

    Agreed. Lucas is totally capable of "screwing up" his baby, just as anyone else in the real world is.

    "I think that it takes a diehard fan to give the prequels a chance."

    Which proves the point. Why must one be a "die-hard" fan to enjoy the films? Are they so "die-hard" as to be willing to overlook that which is painfully obvious to others, like when your best friend is dating a wench-from-hell, but won't listen to you when you point out her flaws?

    "And some of them act like they are critics; complaing about bad acting dialogue and special effects. Whatever happened to being a fan of Star Wars come what may? Ah I forgot the old addage of being an adult finally kicked in i guess."

    So "adults" don't complain at all?

    Everyone is a critic, dude. You just "criticized" the people who don't like the PT. Does this mean that you should grow up too? ?[face_plain]

    "oh ye of little faith."

    We only go by what we've seen so far. ;)

    "I had my doubts after TPM, but I love AOTC, so I accept Lucas' directorship, even with the inherent flaws."

    AOTC definitely had more of a "Star Wars" feel to it, but I still prefer the OT. I accept that Lucas will direct it no matter what, that doesn't mean I won't complain about it. The need of some people to tell others to stop complaining is as pointless as the fans "telling" Lucas how to make a better film. It won't change things either way.
  19. jdebry Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2003
    I like many fans am excited, but fearful that episode 3 will be a let down like episodes 1 & 2! I am not saying that they were not good movies; however they were not up to caliber with the originals. I think us as fans need to voice our opinion to LFL. That the reason he sits high on the hog is because we keep pumping money into "his baby" no other director acts that way! No other director takes critical scenes from a movie to then show the fans who pay to enter his website. I agree 100% with the journalist's letter to Lucas. Let make it so the next movie is the climax rather than another let down. Remember Lucas was going to have NSYNC in EP2 until hundreds of thousands of fans boycotted the movie. Feel free to comment.
  20. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    what I don't understand is how people think that Lucas can somehow make the PT as good as the OT.

    I think that's totally unrealistic.

    He comes up with a trilogy of genius, that inspires legions of fans and filmmakers, that takes on a life of its own. Sometimes I'm not sure if Lucas understands how powerful his creation can be. Other times I'm pretty sure he knows exactly how powerful it is.

    Now, after 15 years, he comes up with The Phantom Menace - this HAD to be the most overhyped movie of all time, because there is no way it could live up to everyone's expectations.

    Plus, he's doing a backstory/exposition on the OT, which is an unprecedented move.

    Lucas created one master's piece in the OT; now, he's still using those phenomenal talents, but it's simply not as inspired as before.

    It's possible that getting another director or screenplay writer could help things a little bit; just because Lucas is a genius in some areas doesn't mean he has to be in other areas. At the same time, if he wants to go it alone, I'm not sure if anyone can stop him, or should be allowed to stop him.
  21. Nolimit_Veritas Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2003
    Jedi just arent cool enough. if you notice especially in AOTC during the arena battle the jedi hesitate too much they think before they act.

    they jsut dont seem to be using the force.

    Jedi used to be the ultimate dont mess with us figure
    but now they dont use the force.

  22. Apophis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    I agree with Nolimit_Veritas
    The Jedi have to use the Force.
    Let them do Force Pushes, Force Kicks, Force Jumps, ...

    And we need to see more personal fighting.
    For example Bariss and Luminara fighting side by side defending eachother.
    Then one of them gets wounded.µ
    They look at each other before getting killed by Vader/Stormtroopers/Clonetroopers/droids/ ...

    Give us some emotional impact !!!
  23. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I think Lucasfilm has their work cut out for them in promoting Episode III. I wouldn't expect many people to be camping out for this one in light of the reaction of the general public from the last two movies.

    You underestimate Star Wars fans. I guarentee you there will be fans camping out. And if Lucas promotes Episode III as "the very last Star Wars movie ever!" you can bet it will get the public charged up. TPM and AOTC were both big sellers, so the audience is defnitely there.

    I also suspect that after people finally see the complete story, they'll have a whole new appreciation for Episodes I and II and will go back and rewatch them and realize, "You know, these aren't nearly as bad as I thought. In fact, they're quite good!"
  24. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Jedi just arent cool enough. if you notice especially in AOTC during the arena battle the jedi hesitate too much they think before they act.

    they jsut dont seem to be using the force.

    Jedi used to be the ultimate dont mess with us figure
    but now they dont use the force.


    I'm certain that's deliberate, seeing as one of the themes of the prequels is the Jedi losing touch with the force.
  25. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "I also suspect that after people finally see the complete story, they'll have a whole new appreciation for Episodes I and II and will go back and rewatch them and realize, "You know, these aren't nearly as bad as I thought. In fact, they're quite good!"

    I sincerely hope you are right, Durwood.

    "Jedi used to be the ultimate dont mess with us figure
    but now they dont use the force."


    "I'm certain that's deliberate, seeing as one of the themes of the prequels is the Jedi losing touch with the force."


    First spiritually (from within), then literally (from without).
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