What does it mean to be a Christian?

Just because we're all sinners doesn't mean we're all bad, through and through. There are plenty of nice people who are sinners. I like to think of myself as a nice person, but I'm still a sinner.
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23
The thing with babies-I believe in an age of accountability thing. Until you consciously know that an action you are taking is wrong (a kid faces the choice of taking a pack of gum from a store, and, though his mother has constantly told him not to steal, he takes it anyway, ect.), you aren't responsible for your sins.
I had an older brother who died when he was 7 weeks old, due to a heart problem. I never saw him, but I look forward to seeing him in heaven.
Some people have a sweet, charming, good disposition. Others don't. I don't really konw much about our sin nature. I just know the Bible says "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Kitt- God is willing to let anyone into heaven, but people have to have faith in Him first. You say people refuse, yes, they refuse by not having faith in Him. We seem to have the same opinion, unless I'm wrongly interpreting your post. I'm not sure what part of my previous message you are contesting. With the story of the prodigal son, you must remember that that was an illustrative story, a parable. But with the issue of innocent blood, Hebrews 9:22b "and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." I hope that helps a little.

~Eirtae

 

Eirtae brought up a good point eariler though, we don't have to learn to lie, steal, cheat, hate, greed or any number of horrible things, but we do have to learn how to be good.

also, what she said about people being sinners but not being bad through and through is right on. Stein auf EIRTAE!

 

Whether or not you believe everyone is inherently evil, depends alot on how you define an 'evil' being, I think.

Personally, I believe no one is evil. People may do evil things, and think evil thoughts, but taken by themselves, a human being is a good thing. Actions can be described as evil, not objects.

I also think it's not quite right to say that evil acts come naturally, while good acts have to be taught. You can't know what is wrong, without knowing what is right as well, if you take my meaning. It's like saying "Children know naturally when the lights are off, but have to be taught when the lights are on." It's impossible to know one, without knowing the other.

Perhaps you are more trying to say that humans have a natural instinct towards selfishness, greed and hate. I would only partially agree. We have animal instincts, yes, but they are not all selfish. Humans tend to be selfish when it comes to food and possessions, but we also have a strong natural aversion to killing eachother. The military has to go to great lengths to overcome that instinct in boot camp. Human mothers have a strong nurturing instinct, and we also have strong instincts to form social bonds.

The thing that comes most naturally to humans is the greatest goodness of them all: love. A baby does not need to be 'taught' to love it's parents, nor do we have to be taught to love our friends. In that case, it's hate that is unatural, not love.

ah, enough typing for now

 

To follow up on Kitt's point (and speaking as an ex-Christian), the only natural "evil" in humans is self-interest. Children must be taught the proper socialization skills in order to function properly in society. This necessarily entails education in altruism and communitarianism. Although Aristotle was right when he stated that "Man is a social animal," he neglected to mention contemporaneously that we are self-interested social animals. He did, however, get it right when he noted that virtue and vice are habitual - both must be practiced before one can properly be said to possess a given attribute. One lies from self-interest initially, but then one also learns to lie in the interest of another. One then learns that lies can often be good, or even necessary (despite Kant's claim otherwise).

Although one must learn positive qualities, it does not follow that they are necessarily absent initially. While specific virtues must be learned, so too must specific vices. Racism is not natural to humans - that is a social inculcation. Elitism is not natural to humans - it is manifested in society and then internalized. Even religion is not natural to humanity - the concept of a "god," "gods," or other supernatural entities must be *learned.*

Being a Christian necessarily requires specific theosophical claims, which have been elaborated and debated above (although we have yet to nail down which branch of Christianity we are discussing). It would seem that the only real requirements of "Christianity" in the broad sense would be a belief in monotheism, a belief in an afterlife, a belief in personal responsibility for action, and the divinity of the historical Jesus. Beyond that, it gets into more factionalism than a universal value system. There is little real consensus on social responsibilities, ethical issues, etc.

 

What does it mean to be a Christian???? hmmm?

That is a tough question. Is there anyone who really has the answer other than Jesus? We all can read his teachings.. Those of us who find truth there and strive to follow his example can call ourselves Christians. But what does it mean? Are you suppose to act a certain way? Are you suppose to do certain things? I am not sure. I do know that God doesn't like every thing to be the same. We are all individuals. We were never meant to be the same. Being a Christian should be different for each person. It will depend on your own individuality. I do think some people have it wrong. Beating the bible over others heads is not what it's all about. Sure some of the things Christians do will be different but it is still about your own relationship with God, not other people's. That is just MHO.


So what about Evil? I do think Good people can do evil. I do however think there are Evil people. How they got that way or why they are that way I do not know. Parts of me do not want to know. Where they born that way? I doubt it but I think it is possible. I think it is more likely that Evil sort of drew them in and turned them to the dark side.. To use a Starwars metaphor. To say we are all evil is wrong. It is more likely we are born Good. However that being said we should all recognize we have the potential for evil. That is just smart thinking. Keeps you on your toes.

 

Kitt327:

I really don't like all this 'we're all evil, we were born evil, we sin a thousand times a day' talk. It's psychologically damaging in the utmost. You can't have any self-esteem if it's constantly drummed into you that you're evil and there's nothing you can do about it.

When you get the fact that you're sinful pounded into your head, it makes you appreciate the gift of salvation a whole lot more. No one can claim perfection. You probably don't even live up to the standards you set for yourself all the time, much less the standards set by God. I freely admit that I'm evil. But I choose to do something about it.

 

"When you get the fact that you're sinful pounded into your head, it makes you appreciate the gift of salvation a whole lot more."

Wow, sounds like something you really sought out on your own.

 

Wow, sounds like something you really sought out on your own.

?

 

I'm not opposed to the idea that humans 'sin' or commit immoral acts. However, I don't believe that makes a human 'evil'. As I said earlier, only actions can be described as evil, not objects. It is as meaningless to call a person evil, as it is to call your computer evil.

I am also against the attitude that we sin 'a thousand times a day in a thousand different ways'. It is a vast exaggeration of the truth, considering we sleep half the day. 'Sin' is not some shadowy, vague thing which is happening all the time in the background. To claim it is, makes you blind to seeing real immoral acts for what they are.

I don't know, it's just the psychology of it that disturbs me. Self-flagellation - 'I'm evil, I should be punished, I deserve to burn in hell and die a horrible death!' etc. To me, Jesus philosophy was the exact opposite. He built people up through love, healing and forgiveness, rather than run them down with guilt. I never saw Jesus demanding someone innocent be killed before he forgave the women the crowds were planning to stone to death. Still, that's just my opinion.

 

Just to clear up a little thing with the "I sin a thousand times a day...." I made that statement, and I believe I spoke it out of proportion and that it's getting blown out of proportion. I simply wanted to make the point that I sin A LOT. Me, myself. I really don't know about the rest of you guys.
For instance, I don't verbally curse or swear. But I do mentally sometimes, I don't know how many times a day, and I do it before I can stop it. I sin a lot daily, but I cannot tabulate the number of times I do.
Therefore, the "thousand sins a day" is an overstatement and should be considered figurative.
I hope that that clears some things up.
: ) Eirtae

 

Um, you may want to let up on yourself, when you are worrying about thinking swear words, gosh. No one deserves to be that hard on themselves, i don't care what your church tells you. Why don't you worry about when you deliberately hurt someone, lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc.? If you never give yourself a break, no one else will.

 

Simply having "evil" thoughts isn't sin; it's indicative of an honest reaction. "Sin" is the result of action or inaction ("sins" of commission or omission); not simply an impulse or involuntary thought. A belief system that wants to exercise rigorous control on the unconscious human psyche is asking the impossible. The only way your involuntary thoughts could be "sin" is if you voluntarily acted upon them.

Chastising yourself for your thoughts is a little unhealthy - it's overcorrecting for a perceived fault. When you internally use profanity or have an "evil" thought, simply recognize the circumstances that produced it, acknowledge them, and resolve to not let them dictate your actions.

 

Very interesting thread. I like the civility expressed by everyone posting. Back in the JC forum, there would have been massive bashing of some sort by now.

I'm in agreement with everyone stating that to be a Christian one must have accepted Jesus as personal savior. Nothing else is necessary for salvation. Living a good life is done out of love for Jesus and what He did for us, not for retaining a spot in heaven. Everyone is doomed to Hell without Him. (I give exception to those who are not old enough or do not have the mental capacity to understand the implications of sin. I also believe those who live in parts of the world where they could not hear the Gospel are judged by what they know rather than by their acceptance of Jesus.)

It only took one sin to separate God and man. That sin was no "worse" than a child taking a cookie out of a cookie jar after being told not to do so. Adam and Eve had only one restriction on them, and they could not live by it. Eating the apple seems to be such a "small" sin, but it was disobediance nonetheless.

In the days of before Christ, it was necessary for the blood of an innocent, perfect animal to shed its blood in atonement for sin. Sin is so awful to God, only blood (death of an innocent) can wash it away. But the blood of the animal was not good enough to be an everlasting atonement as a sacrifice had to be made at least annually.

Despite man's sin, God still loved His creation. Out of love God sent Jesus to live among humans to do the following:

1) To reveal Himself to us.
2) To identify with us.
3) To save us.

Jesus lived 33 years as a human (lower than the angels). He understood what humans experienced but still managed to live the perfect life. When his blood was shed on the cross, He was the PERFECT sacrifice -- one that can save eternally. It does not have to be done over and over again. One just needs to accept His gift of salvation.

I believe the cross symbolizes how Jesus saves everyone who accepted Him before and after His sacrifice. People who loved God and followed the Law to the best of their abilty before his death were saved.

Sorry this was so long, but the topic is critically important.

 

Everyone is doomed to Hell without Him.

There goes freewill. Worship me or fry. Gotta love a religion that doesn't judge you based upon your actions and how you treat other people but how much you worship.

That isn't being moral. That's the same thing as kids being good before Christmas so they get presents.

 

I agree. It's seems to me to be very fear based. From all my experiences with my insanely fundamentalist family, and my new buddy at work who talks more about being a sinner and hell than love with a capital L, fear is the key.

I think the people in other parts of the world who get to go to heaven if they are good but couldn't have heard the gospel have a better deal. They get to act like jesus would, by being decent people who are compassionate and considerate towards others, and they also don't have to make any intellectual sacrafices of accepting the story of a man who died generations ago as the only means to living a good life if it doesn't gel with their gut instinct. Because i know i would act, or at least try to act, in a way that i find natural, being kind to people and doing my best to be honest, i think it's too bad i didn't get the same deal the backwards people got, considering my god given questioning nature and all.

 

I like your new icon. Watch it, or I might start hitting on you.

 

Maybe people will think i'm a girl now.

That's always been the idea, you know.

 

Make me look like a weirdo why don't you?

 

For the love of pete, finding a unique icon is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Therefore, i am now officially on a probe mission to find one. Get it?

 

Free will does exist. One has the choice to accept God, or not. As with all choices, there are consequences. Not accepting Jesus has the most significant consequence, which is Hell.

God created the world and gave man a perfect world in which to live. To give man a choice of whether or not to obey Him, God restricted one, and only one, tree from which not to eat its fruit. Adam and Eve botched it.

God provided that sacrifices could be made to attone for sins. Cain could not do it correctly -- he did not shed blood because he brought vegetables rather than livestock. Cain was jealous of God's acceptance his brother, Able's sacrifice, so Cain killed Able.

God saved Noah and his family from the flood, but one of the first things Noah did after landing on dry ground was to grow a vinyard and get drunk and naked. He then cursed the son who caught him.

God sent His own Son, who lowered Himself to the level of a human, to die a humilitating death He did not deserve.

I could give many, many more examples of when God performed loving acts but was repaid with rejection. God is a god of mercy, but His mercy can only go so far. If one rejects the sacrifice of His son, then God cannot let them enter heaven.

If I were God, I would have scrapped humanity a long time ago. But His love allows the world to go onward, and he give hope for a beautiful existence in the afterlife.

EDIT: Spelling -- its getting late, and I'm not sure if I'm making sense.

 

So a serial killer who accepts Jesus as his savior is not going to hell while Ghandi is roasting?

 

Great. Scrape humanity why don't you.

"and he give hope for a beautifu existence in the afterlife."

Who says it can't be beautiful right now?

We probably need an adam and eve thread, that would turn into about a million pages pretty quick.

 

They're the ones who ate the apple, right? God must be an orange man?

 

It could be called, "Beware the talking snakes: or, adam and eve, boy they srewed up REAL fast."

 

"Worship me or fry"

Jesus wasn't asking everyone to Worship him. Just to accept him into their lives. People can be a good Christian with out spending any time 'worshiping' It's all about Letting him be in your life and about how you live that life. The worshiping part comes from peoples gratefulness for what he brings into your life. Nothing more. Some people honestly want to praise him and spend time in Worship.

Sometimes Worship can help people be filled with the spirit and can give them strength to resist sin. Thou I am sure it pleases the lord to see us worship, I think it is more for our benefit than his.

There are some who focus too much on the Worship (i.e. going to church) and forget the part about letting him into your life. There are lots of Devoted Christians in this world that have yet to truly let Jesus in.



Jesus says the way is through him. It isn't saying your going to fry if you don't worship him.. I just means when it is your turn to be judged he will be the one checking you out.