Saga What does the Prophecy mean by Balance?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by IG-85, Sep 15, 2011.

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  1. IG-85 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2011
    So, the Prophecy says that someone will bring balance to the force in the PT, but what exactly is balance, and what is it ment to balance?

    I mean, the Jedi are obviously many and mid way through TPM we discover the Sith are back, but we are told that there are always two.

    So why would the Prophecy talk of balance?

    Does it mean to wipe out the Jedi to a point where its just Obi/Yoda, two Jedi and two Sith, Sidious/Vader, then just Luke/Leia once Obi and Yoda pass? Not an exact balance obviously if you include various Jedi that escaped, but is that the answer?

    I always assumed that the balance was brought back once Vader kills Sidious, thus killing himself and ending the Sith, so is the Balance by the Chosen One brought about by ending the Sith?

    If so, it seems a long way to go about it, murdering loads of Jedi and waiting nigh on 20 years before doing the deed, unless its because Anakin turned to the dark side, the Prophecy deviated from its orginal course?

    Did the Prophecy/Force always intend to wipe out the Jedi?

    Anyone else got any ideas? Answers on a postcard please!

    (I posted this in the Saga forum because it spans the whole trilogy, where the Prophecy eventually ends).
  2. fistofan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
    The way I see it, and this is coming mostly from what I've seen in the Mortis episodes of TCW, the Force is ideally in perfect balance between light and dark. However, the dark is tempting and can be used by people like the Sith to break the balance. As George puts it, they are like a "cancer".

    The Jedi, on the other hand, ally with the light side but do not alter the balance becasue they don't actively try to destory the dark, in contrast to the Sith who try to destroy the light. Therefore, the Jedi are neccessary to prevent the darksiders from breaking the balance.

    Here's a gif I liked from a thread talking about The Clone Wars:

    [image=http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/Commander_Gray/final.gif]
  3. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Light Side = Balance

    Dark Side = Imbalance
  4. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Essentially the Force consists of an essential ratio (balance) of the Light Side and the Dark Side. These must be in balance for life to function. Basically the Yin-Yang principle.

    The Sith create imbalance through adherence to the Dark Side 'emitting' excessive Darkness into the Force. This creates imbalance. The Jedi do not cause imbalance.
  5. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    Balance does not mean balance in numbers.

    The Sith create imbalance by excessively using the Force. In essence, they are like a dam holding back a river, not allowing it to flow freely.

    No Sith = Balance.

    The dark side is ever present. But, coupled with the light side, it is in balance.....unless The Sith are around to tip the scales in the dark sides favor.

  6. fistofan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
    Wow, you guys managed to condense my wall of text into a few sentences. Impressive! =D=
  7. Gary_Buchenara Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2009
    star 3
    I think there also needs to be a balance between the gut instinct aspect of the force and the cerebral, contemplative side. Too much of either of these at the expense of the other allows the dark side to permeate.
  8. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    You're speaking of the living force versus the unifying force.

    Maybe The Sith rely exclusively on the living rather than the unifying?

    I always imagined that Qui-Gon and Dooku were on the outs with the JC because they were adherents to the ancient idea of the living Force, whereas Yoda and the JC have chosen a more monkish outlook.

    It's almost like two different sects of Jedi in the PT.
  9. Gary_Buchenara Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2009
    star 3
    Yeah, although I usually get shouted down when I actually mention the words! ;)

    I think the Sith do rely on the living aspect. In fact they are probably the living force on steroids. Impulse. Action. Deal with the consequences later.

    The Unifying Force can become too dominant as well though, and we see that with the PT Jedi. They were so tied up with the rules of the order and contemplating everything to death that they fail to see that which is right in front of them. They're so tied up in the history of things and the ramifications for the future that they don't address the present. This provided the Sith with the opportunity they needed.
  10. Fanofthefilms Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2011
    My opinion changes on this changes about daily and G.L. has made his opinion clear. But i believe that since Luke has the ability to harness the darkside without falling prey to its power using it for personal gain or to hurt others, and also use the light side but doesn't follow the blind dogmatic ways of the jedi of old that he is in balance, neither completely dark or light, just in the middle. So he is balanced.
  11. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    I think it is clear that the ideal 'balanced' outlook on life is demonstrated by Qui-Gon - whilst I furthermore believe this is the key to merging with the Force (Force Ghost). Essentially it is to follow your instincts and to follow the inherent goodness. To be completely light is not always good just as too be completely dark is essentially never good. Good is created through a combination and harmony of both the Light and Dark to create the complete being, in symphony with both other humans and nature; "feel don't think - follow your instinct".

    The Sith are imbalanced towards the Dark - this creates imbalance within the Force.
    The Jedi are likewise somewhat imbalance - this however only results in the blinding of their order (i.e. it does not cause imbalance within the Force).


    The point of Luke is the ultimate balanced Jedi. Obi-Wan, Yoda, Qui-Gon, and eventually Anakin, all find this illusive balance in my opinion. This is how the Jedi Order will continue and how they will truly be the guardians of peace and justice (through balance).
  12. IG-85 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2011
    So the gist of what im getting from this thread is that the force is in balance when there are Jedi and no Sith, so its all lightside, but once the Sith emerge, it taints the lightside with the dark, and thus become un-balanced?

    If so, surley, once Anakin turned up, the Jedi would have gone, 'This is the boy who will apparently bring the Prophecy to fulfillment, so there must be some Sith hanging about the place, the force spirt level is wonkey'. [face_laugh]
  13. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    No.

    The jedi are a balance between light and dark. The Sith create an imbalance because they horde the Force unto themselves. They are greedy. They covet power through the Force. As such, they use more dark and more dark until an imbalance is created.

    The darkside is in everyone. The Jedi temper it and balance it with the light.

    The Sith exclude the light and so imbalance the Force.
  14. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Agreed.

    Obi-wan says to Darth Vader in ROTS: "You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them!"

    This implies that the prophecy was centered around destroying dark side elements and bringing balance (light side).
  15. IG-85 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2011
    So basically, the Jedi are the middle of the scales supporting the weights for light and dark on either side? And when the Sith draw from the darkside, it adds weight, if you will, to the scales to imbalance them?
  16. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Not really. The Dark Side is a natrual part of existence and as such can not and should not be destroyed. You stop evil by balancing dark and light adequately. Obi-Wan says Anakin was to destroy the 'Sith' not the 'Dark Side'.

    Basically. Except the Jedi aren't 'holding up' the Force like scaffolding - it's just that they, more or less, walk the middle path, and the Sith don't. Imagine the Force is a clear-colored pool created from light and dark 'water' - the Sith just add too much of the dark water and create imbalance in the consistency.
  17. JediLight Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 4
    "Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."
    George Lucas

    Link
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    This.

    "All light side" is not balance. It in no way fits the definition of the word balance. The balance is between the light and dark sides of the Force ( according to GL, TCW, and EU ).
  19. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    "Balance=No Sith" does give rise to some questions.

    1) If the Sith cause the imbalance merly by existing then the Force has not been balanced for over a 1000 years and would be unbalanced as soon as another Jedi fell to the Dark side.

    2) Why do the Jedi bother with this prophecy? Pre TPM they think all Sith are long since dead so the prophecy would already have come to pass.

    3) There are "Dark side" powers, the choke and Force lightning are examples.
    Are the mind trick, levitating things etc "light side" powers?
    The Sith can and do use all type of powers while the Jedi only should use the "light side" powers. Luke does dabble but can keep himself from falling.
    Is it balance for a Jedi to only ever use the lightside powers and never the "dark side" powers?

    If so it seems that the Dark side can exist but noone is allowed to use it or it will result in imbalance?

    Regards
    Nordom
  20. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    It is likely only once their influence and power reaches a certain degree. It is only at this point does their 'polluting' of the Force cause imbalance. The Mortis trilogy seemed to support this in that it was only when the Son actually destroyed light did imbalance occur. In this way I think it can be reasoned it is a gradual process (which accumulates while the Sith are in exile).

    They probably thought it was fulfilled. However likewise they did not know if a Chosen One had existed previously. So they probably cautiously disregarded it however always considered it a possibility it had not been fulfilled (probably why the Jedi Council seems sceptical when Qui-Gon believes he has found the Chosen One).

    Balance isn't necessarily powers as much as it is ones emotional state. In other words if you are too aggressive or fearful you will fall to a dark side. This is a state of complete darkness, hate and evil. That personal imbalance is what causes one to 'fall to the Dark Side' and as such it is this 'evil cancer' in the system which causes a greater imbalance.

    Not exactly. George has noted that aggression, while being a dark side power, can be utilized for a greater good (i.e. fighting to defend yourself and others against evil). So this would be utilizing the dark side in a balanced moderation. It is when the Dark Side is utilized excessively, without control and without the counterbalance of the light does imbalance occur within ones self and one falls to the Dark Side.
  21. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4

    But if this is so then balance can also be achived by taking away much of the Siths power.
    Say that Anakin died in RotS and Palpatine would have to find a new apprentice.
    He does so but only trains him for a short while before getting killed and the empire collapses but the apprentice survives. So there is a sith still living but he does not have much power. Would this be balance?

    But again why would the Jedi bother to study an ancient prophecy that they all thought was no longer relevant? 1000 years is quite a long while.

    Aggression is not a power as such it more of an emotional state, isn't it? A way to go about doing certain things.
    Also this would seem to go against what Yoda says in the films. That you should never let your fear or anger influence you in a fight. Also he says that once you start down the dark path it will consume you. So it does not seem that using anger in a fight is ok.
    In RotJ is it said that a single dark act can turn you and make you evil.

    Regards
    Nordom
  22. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Well it may influence the extent to which the Force is imbalanced, however providing the apprentice was taught much of the Sith lore and had significant power it would still remain in imbalance. If the Sith has been 'knighted' a 'darth' and had not yet reached any considerable power perhaps balance would have been restored - however it would only have been temporary if the Sith had once again began gaining power in exile.

    It would be known to them possibly as a prophecy which is significant yet unknown to have been fulfilled. It is quite possible that they still believed the prophecy unfulfilled and that the Sith would return eventually. Fact of the matter is however that they still studied and understood the prophecy (probably an essential aspect of Jedi teachings).

    Death is, apparently, part of the dark side yet Yoda says it is natural to be accepted. The 'starting down the dark path' could be interpreted as meaning if you being to have dark aspects of nature control you (i.e. not counterbalanced or controlled by light). Essentially this has been confirmed by George as being what balance means. It also doesn't really contradict Yoda's philosophy.
  23. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    This is my opinion regarding the philosophy (an imbalance version will be created also).

    [image=http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/Commander_Gray/TheForce.png]

    Yes, I know 'Benevolence' is spelt wrong :p
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Yes and no. I would tend to call them universal powers as the games do, since we have seen darksiders use them in canon, while we also know that they can be used by Jedi without harm because they do not require use of the dark side itself. If the term "light side powers" is restricted to mean something unavailable to darksiders, the only example I can think of would be ghosting.

    Using "dark side powers" would make the Jedi actually a "dark Jedi".
  25. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I find this opinion of Balance in the Force very acceptable.
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