Saga What does the Prophecy mean by Balance?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by IG-85, Sep 15, 2011.

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  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That's not the balance of the Force, it's the balance of the Luke. Luke is not the Force.
  2. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    This is what I took from Lucas' comments.

    Essentially, the Force in it's natural state is balance. Light and dark exist in an equal state. Because the Jedi are passive in nature, they don't affect the balance. They use the Force for knowledge and defense and embrace the will of the Force. Thus the Force is allowed to exist without being pressed on so to speak. The Sith on the other hand are aggressive. They actively use the Force to press their advantage. In essence they don't let things be and let things play out through the Force. Because they force their will on the Force rather than letting the will of the Force guide them and because they do it through the Dark Side, through fear, anger and aggression, it creates an imbalance in the Force.

    This is why the Jedi's vision was clouded. Sidious was manipulating the Force to his own ends, increasing the imbalance. It's the passivity of the Jedi that allowed them to feel the Force in a way that helped them but not in a way that pushed their will on the Force to serve them.

    Now my understanding of it seems to indicate that an imbalance can't be created favouring the light side because if the Jedi became active and purposeful in their use of the Force, that action would be aggressive in nature. So even if the Jedi attempted to push their will on to the Force it would be an act of the Dark Side. Thus an imbalance can only be created towards the Dark Side. The Sith want to control the Force. The Jedi want to listen to the Force. That's the difference. And that's what balance is about.
  3. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Yeah, but then again that is the same principle most others have established as well (and that is balance of the individual, not of the Force). To related concepts but distinctly different.

    Yes, however one is merely on an individual level and one is on a metaphysical level - the same basic principles apply. 'Balance of the Force' is the balance of the overall metaphysical energy field, and 'balance of the individual' is harmony within the individual person (i.e. not falling to the Dark Side, following the 'Will of the Force', etc). At the end of the day 'balance of the Force' means the harmony/balance between the Light Side and the Dark Side meaning the adequate ratio for life to exist (Yin and Yang principle). Essentially all sources support this.

    Yeah this is essentially correct. The Sith create imbalance (for whatever reason) and it creates too much darkness within the galaxy (thus imbalancing the Force). This creates a 'run-away-train' effect where darkness grows because life is corrupted (the Sith cause imbalance, this imbalance causes corruption, this corruption causes war, etc - thus as darkness grows the rate of its imbalance accelerates). As such light fades. The 'Shroud of the Dark Side' is essentially the embodiment of imbalance.
  4. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Yeah, but then again that is the same principle most others have established as well (and that is balance of the individual, not of the Force). To related concepts but distinctly different.


    Not for me it isn't.
  5. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Good argument. I see your supporting evidence is conclusive. How can someone (an individual) being balanced in the Force be the same as the overall Force - the two concepts follow the same principles however you can't say because Luke was balance so was the Force.





    :rolleyes:
  6. EntechednReformatted Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2009
    star 1
    Although this isn't the TCW forum, the Mortis arc definitely felt like a GL manifesto on what Balance is all about, so I think it's relevant. Mortis basically equated light and darkness with creation and destruction. However, it also equated light and darkness with selflessness and selfishness.

    Obviously, for the universe to work properly, creation and destruction must be balanced. That's just the way of things ... the way of the force. Too much creation or too much destruction would have terrible consequences for the normal cycles of life. The Jedi generally don't do anything to tip the cosmic scales of creation and destruction too far out of balance in either direction, but the Sith certainly do.

    What I wonder is whether the same is true of selfishness and selflessness ... that they must be balanced, and too much of either one is undesirable. The Sith are the ultimate example of pathological selfishness, and it's easy to see how that unbalances the Force. But is it possible to be too selfless? The Jedi are so selfless that they don't even permit themselves emotional attachments. Is that too selfless?

    I don't know. But to me one of the major unanswered questions of the Saga is Leia's future. It is implied that she will become a Jedi. It is also strongly implied that she will be with Han. Do these represent two alternate paths that Leia must choose between? Or are we meant to conclude that Leia will be a Jedi AND be with Han? If it's the latter, do we take that as GL condemning the traditional Jedi restrictions on emotional attachments? How do emotional attachments relate to the concept of the balance of the Force? Maybe they don't.

    That's what I've been pondering since my last SW film marathon, and I've been wondering about it even more since Mortis.
  7. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    I think that emotional attachments are related to the concept of the balance of the Force because it deals with the same issue that the Mortis arc displayed. It too is equated with creation/destruction and selflessness/selfishness like for example:

    - If a person sees his friends or strangers in danger, then he goes to rescue them even if he risks getting himself killed. However, if he gets too concerned for their safety and is unwilling to let them go, then he winds up making stupid mistakes which might get both them and himself killed.

    -The environment consists of living plants and animals as well as land, air, and water. Some humans want to protect it while others want to destroy it with their weapons, pollution, and fire.

    Anakin's refusal to let Padme go not only led to her death but it also caused him to further commit mass murder and destruction upon the whole galaxy whereas his concern for Luke led him to kill the Emperor and then dying in the process which brought the Force back into balance.
  8. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I finished watching the 1988 miniseries, "NOBLE HOUSE". One of the characters had a very interesting thing to say about the two most powerful trading companies in Hong Kong, which happened to be rivals.

    She claimed that that perhaps it was not a good thing if one rival company became even more powerful at the expense of the other . . . or if one company manage to ruin the other. The existence of both companies prevented each other from becoming too powerful, which she believed would not be good for the Hong Kong business community. This was her idea of balance.

    And I can see what she was coming from. After viewing the movies, I believe that it would have been better for the galaxy if both the Jedi and the Sith existed at the same time. Whenever one brings about the downfall of the other, the victor usually ends up embarking upon a long decline. After the downfall of the Sith, the Jedi became complacent, rigid, willing to serve the Senate's needs in order to ensure its existence and also arrogant. Following the Jedi's downfall, the Sith became complacent, increasingly oppressive and eventually arrogant.

    To me, the Jedi and the Sith represent two sides of one coin. After, the founder of the Sith Order that Palpatine belonged to was a former Jedi Master. I believe they need the existence of each other to maintain some kind of balance or keep each other on its toes. Without that balance, complacency eventually happens, along with disaster.




    Sidious was manipulating the Force to his own ends, increasing the imbalance.

    How did he do this?
  9. Rev Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2005
    star 2
    Imbalance is the presence of the evil (the Dark Side) in the life energy of living being (the Force), so that balance is the restoration of that Force to a state of righteousness. The Chosen One brought balance to the Force, but this balance has not yet been fully realized.

    An example similar to this is Christ's crucifixion: On the cross, He defeated Sin, Death, and the Devil for all time, but this victory will not be fully realized until He returns at the end of the age.

    Whatever the Chosen One did, it worked, but the results need not be immediately evident, so long as there are eventual eschatological consequences.
  10. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I disagree. For me, both evil and good are entities that are a part of nature. They are two sides of a coin to me. For one to overwhelm the other would be unnatural.

    A good example would be the elements - fire, water, earth and air. All elements can be both destructive and beneficial. As long as one element does not overwhelm the others, nature can remain in balance.
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The balance of the Force is a balance between the light and dark sides ( as stated in Altar of Mortis, Cloak of Deception, Revan, et cetera ). Thus, a Force in balance is not "all light". All of one thing and none of the other would not be any kind of balance. Lucas said that both sides have to be there. Similarly, the Father said that too much dark or light would be the undoing of life as we know it. The Force is generated by living things, and as such it stands to reason that it would not naturally be in a state of pure righteousness unless all life in the galaxy was somehow completely righteous. The imbalance should be equated with the increase in strength of the dark side rather than with the very existence of the dark side itself.
  12. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    By creating a series of conflicts like the Naboo invasion, the Seperatist Movement, and the Clone Wars. He did all of this to exploit the fear and greed of others in order to achieve his position as leader of the Republic. Then he had to escalate the violence so he could scare the senate into giving him complete authority which is what is causing the imbalance in the force. Finally, he tricks Anakin into joining the Dark Side and having him betray and murder all the Jedi thus giving Sidious "UNLIMITED POWER".
  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Then you must see the conclusion of the saga in ROTJ as an unhappy ending. Think Lucas agrees?

    Key words: "some kind of balance". There's only one kind of balance discussed in the films, and it's the balance of the Force, not a balance between Jedi and Sith. Since Force-users are not the Force, the balance of the Force is not a balance of Force-users. You can't assume that one kind of "balance" is automatically equal to any other kind of balance. The films tell us that the Force is left out of balance in ROTS and we know that balance is restored due to ROTJ. These facts, along with TPM, contradict the invalid fan rewrite of "balance of the Force" into "Jedi/Sith head count".
  14. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    This sounds like good old fashioned political manipulation to me. Something that our politicians even do today.




    Then you must see the conclusion of the saga in ROTJ as an unhappy ending. Think Lucas agrees?


    Just because the Emperor was killed, does not mean that the Sith or evil was destroyed for good. The Sith returned in the EU books. Evil continued to exist. Every time the Jedi destroy the Sith, the latter eventually manages to revive. Every time the Sith destroy the Jedi, the latter manages to revive. It's like Mother Nature or the Force trying to tell them that in the end, they will never be rid of one another.



    The imbalance should be equated with the increase in strength of the dark side rather than with the very existence of the dark side itself.


    Even the increase in strength of the "light side" can cause an imbalance. Look at the Jedi during the Old Republic. Their domination as the only Force users in the galaxy eventually developed into a negative state. The same happened when the Sith or "the dark side" dominated the galaxy.
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That doesn't change the fact that having Sith around is a bad thing and having Jedi around is a good thing. Having Jedi stalemated by Sith is a bad thing.

    In theory, yes, but we don't have any evidence that actually happened during the era in question. Jedi arrogance or complacency would not themselves cause the light side to grow out of bounds. If anything, the weaknesses of the Jedi mean that they are less able to contain the rise of the dark side when it is occurring, which goes against the concept that the Jedi cause an imbalance toward the light.
  16. Fanofthefilms Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2011
    We are talking about balance and not peace. I think sometimes those two terms get confused. And i believe that Light siders do effect the force as much as dark siders do. George can say what he wants but his opinion means little to me considering he has been changing the rules and story since day one. That for one has caused most this confusion.

    Let me explain what i said about light siders first. Notice how Qui-gon is constantly using the force for his own gain? The die roll, his attempt of a mind trick with Watto, mind trick after mind trick on the Gungan King. And why where Jedi sent to negotiate with the trade federation? More mind tricks and fear propaganda? This is just one man in the counsel, how many more Jedi do these things?

    I believe the Jedi counsel had become corrupted and self serving and where also influencing the force and the chain of events in the galaxy. Just a political puppet under the control of a bureaucratic machine.


    So if we have two sides both corrupting the force we need to get rid of both sides to get our balance back. But wait, we still have Luke and maybe Leah And well he isn't the best example of a balanced force user. I mean, Ben Kenobi told Anakin that a Jedi never deals in absolutes but didn't Luke give Jabba the same ultimatum when trying to save Han Solo?
    I quote "Nevertheless, I'm taking Captain Solo and his friends. You can either profit by this... or be destroyed! It's your choice." Seems a little dark sided to me. But whatever I guess luke can't live forever and once he and Leah are six feet under there will be no one to teach "the ways of the force" and no one will be around to influence the force and therefore balance we be restored.

    Maybe. I could be way way way off too. Just my two cents.
  17. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    This for the most part. Essentially balance means peace. So lon as evil sits in the center of power you will no have that no matter how effective the dystopia.
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    So he changed his mind about how many films he wanted to make, and that means anything he says can be ignored? Convenient.

    No, the usual confusion on this topic is caused by replacing "balance of the Force" with "balance of Jedi and Sith", despite the fact that these are not the same thing and the substitution is contradicted by the films. Lucas did not do this, nor did he change anything regarding this subject.

    There's still no evidence that the Jedi corrupt the Force in a way analogous to the corruption of the Sith. For one thing, if the Jedi produced an imbalance toward the light, either the imbalance created by the Sith would be canceled out, or the Force as a whole would have been unbalanced toward the light during the film era. But we know that it was unbalanced toward the dark during the film era, even while thousands of Jedi were active.
  19. Fanofthefilms Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2011

    Maybe I'm just one of those people that believe that the force is a tool, not a conscious entity that has a "moral" code that it goes by and therefore justify's letting thousands of living creatures be killed only to "settle it's stomach" as it were.

    If it is only a tool, then we are dealing with moral code and open up a can of worms that i wont go into here. Also i'm not arguing "force user numbers" as you are so fond of falling back on. I'm arguing how the users actually use the force. We need to remove personal views of good and bad from this equation and when we do we see that at the end of this movie there is not balance. All we have is a happy fairy tale ending of good guy always wins.

    And yes i agree the sith do manipulate the force more than jedi, but you cannot say the jedi are not guilty of the same. Maybe not as extreme but throughout the whole saga the jedi use the force for "personal" gain over and over. That is not balance.

    i also agree with what you say is balance, but that is not what the movies gave us.

  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Lucas says there is. If you're not seeing it, that's because you can't see the Force.

    I never said the Jedi do not manipulate the Force. By definition Force users manipulate the Force. But manipulating the Force is not the same thing as unbalancing the Force.

    Balance of what? Balance of the individual? Balance of behavior? Balance of personal gain? Whatever kind of balance you're talking about here, it is not the balance of the Force which the films are concerned with. You can't take the word Force out of the balance of the Force, replace it with something else, and act as if you're still talking about the same quantity. As I said, this type of invalid substitution is the source of the confusion, not anything Lucas did.

    Besides, any hypothetical use of the Force for "personal gain" on the part of the Jedi would undoubtedly be outweighed by their efforts on behalf of the galaxy. You may be forgetting that possession is forbidden, and that the actions taken by the Jedi in the films were not taken for personal gain, but for the protection of others such as the Naboo.
  21. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Light Side = Balance

    Dark Side = Imbalance



    I disagree.


    Light Side + Dark Side = Balance


    Why is Dark synonymous with Evil in Western society?
  22. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Because you can't see stuff in the dark, and the unknown is scary and therefore evil.
  23. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Plus, bad stuff usually happens in the dark. Unless you have a mask and/or a hood, no criminal would be bold enough to expose themselves in the light after whatever harm they've brought upon their victims.
  24. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Sometimes, bad stuff comes from good intentions. And sometimes, good stuff comes from bad intentions. It depends upon the situation or the moment.
  25. Nagai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2010
    star 3
    My interpretation is that Anakin brought blance to the force by being born and "making" Luke.
    He created the Skywalker clan which can always bring Balance when evil seems to triump. See Cade Skywalker.
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