Saga What does the Saga tell us about the best way for Force-using Lightsiders to act & be organized?

They might be be called Jedi, or they may be Jedi in all but name, but there will always be Force-using Lightsiders, whatever they're called. Maybe even more than one organization, since Luke makes clear that the Jedi don't have a monopoly on the light.

But what does the Saga tell us about the best way for Force-using Lightsiders to act and be organized... or is variety key, and the galaxy would be stronger for a diverse range of Force-using Lightsiders to exist?



My thoughts, based on the Saga: they should allow diversity, and be decentralized. Different temples with different philosophies.

1. Family/Marriage
* Some temples allow family/marriage/offspring (let them emphasize how it's a tougher path, and teach how to deal with loss and conflicts of interest without turning to the dark side.)
* Other temples still don't allow it, like the PT Jedi
* Multiple types of temples co-exist

2. Bureaucracy
* Some temples have a council that's centralized with all its members obeying its assignments
* Other temples are just for training, meeting, and exchanging information... its members just follow what the Force tells them, wandering do-gooders and mystics
* Multiple types of temples co-exist

3. Government Affiliation
* Maybe a few temples are affiliated with the New Republic
* But also a few temples are affiliated with no government
* And even a few temples are affiliated with the New Separatist Union, or the Chiss, or Confederacy of Corporate Systems, or other government and non-government powers and nonprofit organizations in the galaxy.
* Multiple types of temples co-exist

4. Career Flexibility
* Some temples insist a Jedi needs to be completely devoted as a Jedi.
* Other temples embrace Jedi of all careers and cultures, where being a Jedi is like a religion on today's earth... Jedi doctors, Jedi scientists, Jedi pilots, Jedi engineers, Jedi veterinarians, Jedi politicians/activists, Jedi musicians, Jedi artists, Jedi comedians, Jedi CEO's, Jedi farmers, Jedi chefs, Jedi retail clerks, etc.
* Multiple types of temples co-exist

5. Inclusivity for Non-Force-Sensitives
* Some temples allow members who can't strongly sense or manipulate the Force, like growing the "Church of the Force"... have "Jedi" like Chirrut in Rogue One, and Lor San Tekka in The Force Awakens, who can't actually use or sense the Force, but still follow the Jedi ways
* Other temples strictly only allow Force-sensitives to become members
* Multiple types of temples co-exist



If the "Jedi" name sticks... that label could still be confined to just a few of the above categories. Or you could call some "the Orange Jedi," "the Coruscant Jedi," "the Dagobah Jedi," "the Chiss Knights," "the Republic Knights," "the Separatist Jedi," "the Jedi Guardians," "the Centralized Jedi," "the Jedi Monks," etc.

But the point is, even if they aren't called Jedi, these other temples/branches exist and are widespread throughout the galaxy, in healthy coexistence. All servants of the Light, to counter the Dark Side wherever and however it might spring.





What are your ideas on the future of Force-using Lightsiders? What do you think the Saga is trying to say is the best way for Force-using Lightsiders to act & be organized?

 

The saga doesn't tell anyone should be part of any organization, government or something else, wether one can 'use' the Force or not. Only that if one is to be part of an organization (for example, the Jedi Order), then one should abide by their rules, tenets and beliefs since that's what defines them to begin with.

 

1B 2B 3B 4B and 5B

Forced Celibacy his NEVER a good thing and just results in a bunch of sexually frustrated perverts that likely are full of fetishes and deviants or hypo aggressive morons.
Wonder how many frustrated jedi chopped up a school of children.........o wait we saw that happen......least we never saw any jedi paedo rings.

The jedi order should never be affiliated with politics as it can be dragged down with it as we saw happen.

It should be inclusive.

 

At least according to Lucas, the Jedi are not required to be celibate, just unattached. By implication, "friends with benefits" moments are OK, but long-term relationships are not.

 

Ok that just puts a whole new spin on Padme now. Yes I think the concept was one must not be attached. Compassion. Use your feelings you must. But you must not become controlled by them. Is that what Lucas was suggesting then?

OP I am impressed with your choices in the vote. I shall watch this thread/your career with great interest.

 

The exact source:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/1989505.stm

Jackson said the example of Shaolin monks from Hong Kong kung fu movies had informed his take on a Jedi knight, with characters meditating "like most men are supposed to do in monk-like situations".
But Lucas revealed that despite their monastic regime, Jedi were permitted to have sex.
"Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships."

 

What type of Force-using Lightsiders do you think the galaxy should have? What type do they need the most of? Which would you support? The "A" path (like the PT Jedi)? The "B" path? A mix? Both, so there's diversity? Your own conclusion is probably based on what you witnessed in the movies.
Also, as Lucas's thoughts on the PT make clear, it's good for the Jedi to evolve.

 

"You have done well @Iron_Lord." Great find!

This just brings up visions of Master Yoda in a club surrounded by women now. And now I'm wondering about Aayla Secura's availability. And how other Jedi Anakin's age handled their emotions. So in that sense was that sort of casual intimate relationship permitted with Padme?

This is most interesting. I did get the concept of non attachment. It is indeed similar to Eastern philosophies and religions on Earth. Lucas is a legend. In that sense were the Jedi encouraged to interact with fellow Jedi, or citizens. The mastering of mastering one's emotions would be something interesting to see in the Jedi Order.

As for the Force users' guidelines, this would surely come into play too as per the thread.

 

Other newcanon authors have certainly phrased things in similar ways.

To quote Depa Billaba from the Kanan comic:

"You must not grow too attached, too fond, too in love with life as it is now. Those emotions are valuable and should not be suppressed...but you must learn to rule them, Padawan, lest they rule you."

 

Interesting. So Jedi like Aayla Secura, Anakin, Serra Keto, or that age group, even Obi Wan, what's their life like! Suddenly the youth of the Jedi Order live very fulfilling lives then with regards to intimacy? Such emotions and behaviour would comply with a general Jedi Code, or personal attitudes? In a sense, do Force users need to be guided and observed constantly, or free.

Now I'm imagining Aayla in particular on missions and meeting other young Jedi, or young citizens. Another aspect was also surely when Jedi are undercover be they as slaves, or smugglers etc, they may have to act "un Jedi" so to speak?

Very interesting!

 

Now I'm imagining young Obi-wan and Satine on holida-... I mean running for their lives on mandalore... running from bounty hunter, "forcing them to always be on the run and live hand to mouth, never knowing what the next day would bring them."

How romantic... now it makes me wonder what else they did.

 

I don't think we can imply that. That kind of superficial relationship doesn't gel with the Jedi ways. All we can say is what was stated: that they aren't celibate.

I don't think the galaxy should have a type of light side Force users. That's like asking what type of good people should the world have. I don't care about types of good people, as long as they are good and do good. But if a group of people is dedicated to a certain purpose and is to operate in a certain way, then I would have a preference depending on the differences. If a group of people is to have the duties and purpose that the Jedi have in the movies, then I'd rather have a Jedi (and all that it encompasses) than some other group in their place.

The options you made available seem to dissect the Jedi Order (why them in particular?) as if each and every tenet that's part of it is up for grabs. They aren't. They all have a purpose and they all work as one. If I want a group of selfless people who swore to serve the fairest idea of government with the largest scope (not to be confused with depth of scope, since I'm a fan of small government), then I'd pick the Jedi as they have been presented in the movies. That includes all their beliefs, rules and ways.

Where did Lucas ever express such thoughts? There's no difference between the PT and the OT as far as the portrayal of the Jedi way and teachings go. The OT, specifically Luke's journey, is all about preserving and passing down the ways of old to a new generation. There's no evolution. It was never established that it required change to begin with.

 

The problem is, relationships in general, are inherently a thing that's tied to attachment.

A Jedi, by definition, can't care significantly more about the person they are sleeping with, than about some random stranger. A Jedi isn't allowed to be jealous that another person is "sleeping with my friend" - it has to be a non-exclusive thing.

After all,

"attachment leads to jealousy - the shadow of greed, that is"

Thus, a Jedi will never have "a girlfriend" or "a boyfriend" - only someone they might sleep with once in a while, with no exclusivity about it.

 

That's why Jedi are trained from a very young age to be compassionate but not attached. The moment they befriend someone, they are inherently aware of the limitations. Familial and/or long-term relationships require a level of commitment and attachment that conflicts directly with the duties of a Jedi in many ways.

Friends with benefits is something inherently superficial, that revolves around pleasure and/or passion. And that's against the Jedi way at a core behaviour level.

My point is that a Jedi doesn't go out looking for friends to sleep with, and vice versa. There's a difference between not being celibate, and looking for or engaging in mindless sexual fun.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that, while they're not interested in anything long-term, if two Jedi are both friendly and attracted, they might sleep together, and keep that attraction in mind for the future - when under a lot of stress - find a friend that they can trust, to relieve stress with - hence the "benefits" bit.

But they can't be any more attached to each other than that.

By definition, a Jedi cannot have a "boyfriend" or a "girlfriend" since those are possessive relationships.

Thus, all "permissible" Jedi liaisons must be "non-possessive" ones.

 

@Alexrd, I’m analyzing the Jedi because that’s the best example we have in the canon, they’re a good starting point. There’s a lot more to the Jedi than those 5 areas I described could be open to more flexibility or diversity.

And yes, Lucas makes clear in his interviews, especially around ROTS, including his input on Stover’s ROTS novel, that the Jedi needed to evolve. Yoda realizing that the Jedi prepared and oriented themselves on being ready for a repeat of their old war with the Sith, instead of living in the here and now and being mindful of their surroundings and what the next war could be. You can also see it just with how Obi-wan and Yoda pass on their Jedi teachings to Luke, and how they live more in harmony with nature and their surroundings, in contrast to the Jedi of the PT. Yoda in the PT did even say arrogance was a problem, even with the older, more experienced ones. And just listen to all the commentary in TPM, such as the interviews and extras in the DVD, about change and dealing with change. Underlined with Padme in AOTC talking about how one group of kids she tried to help couldn’t adapt off their homework and they all died. The PT is full of this theme of adapting to change without losing your moral compass. So is the Taoism andbither Eastern thought that often inspired the Jedi.

 

That he had input in the ROTS novel besides reviewing dialogue is a huge assumption, let alone that its contents reflect his views. As far as interviews go, I don't recall any that support such notions either.

The teachings they pass on to Luke are the exact same teachings passed on to generations of Jedi before. Only the environment and circumstances are different (out of necessity). But there's no less harmony or being in touch with their surroundings than before.

So...? They don't teach nor promote arrogance. Nobody said the Jedi were perfect or flawless, the fact that they recognize flaws among their own and don't let said flaws affect their decisions is very Jedi-like. That said, you could argue that Yoda showed moments of arrogance in TESB too.

I have. I've cited his comments from the audio commentaries many times on these very boards.

Shw was talking about biological adaptation. Completely unrelated to the Jedi or their ways.

 

I went with "allow marriage and family," because I believe there is great peace, strength and support that can be derived from having those things in one's life-as opposed to telling a Jedi they must ignore their natural desire for companionship-which IMO can invite jealousy and resentment.

I also went with a centralized leadership. Not because I believe one person should be in charge, but rather simply for the sake of keeping things organized. If everyone is just a bunch of random wanderers, when something massive-like a galaxy-wide threat or complex situation (like a war) arises, it would just be organizational chaos, and almost impossible for all the Jedi to get on the same page and plan out how to support eachother as needed. IMO having a Jedi high council was not one of the flaws of the Jedi of the Old Republic.

I also voted that the Jedi should not be affiliated with any government. This IMO was one of the main things that led to their downfall. The Jedi were way too involved with the goings on in the political stage; the senate and in the war. IMO they should be more distant, and simply operating autonomously, acting by the will of the Force-not the government.

 

The Jedi are not shown to be resentful or jealous, which shows that's not a direct or logical consequence. I thought the reason for not allowing marriage and family was made pretty explicit in the movies, but it seems to fly over most people. Marriage and family are, in and on themselves, their own commitment. You can't be a Jedi and at the same time serve your family. It's simply incompatible in many ways. There are other obvious issues too, which Lucas has mentioned many times and made evident in the movies themselves:

"If [Anakin]’d have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn’t have this particular connection [to his mother] as strong as it is and he’d have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padmé, and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things and wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge and wiping out the village." — George Lucas

 

Why do all lightside Force-users need to be organized, and have organized responses?

 

Please re-read my post-it actually answers that question already.

I'll pose another question:

Why should they NOT be??

 

Because it's good to have variety. Some Force-users who have joined together in a centralized organization, and some who are more like monks or like wandering do-gooders.

And your post doesn't doesn't really already answer that question, or I wouldn't have asked. I don't see a need for all of them to be organized, I don't see why they need to be a single organization. I don't see why they'd all need an organized unified response to a galaxy-wide threat or a complex situation... in fact it would probably be better if they were separate and therefore had separate responses, and better for them to not all be on the same page... then whatever the threat is will be hit with different kinds of responses, and it's more likely that something will work. You also assume they're all Jedi, when I've consciously and intentionally been talking about Force-using lightsiders.

 

Well, i guess, im in minority that see nothing wrong in Jedi Order organisation and rules.
Vader was more or less the only example of Jedi truning to Sith in thousand years.

Marriage will lead to pretty much new, probably worse dilemmas (Jedi would choose family over Order/greater good) which will lead to Order's disband.
Lack of centralization and lifestyle diversity will lead to conflicts inside the Order and overall ineffectiveness.
Lack of affilation with government will put Jedi on the brink of potential extinction in every major Conflict and prevent them from erasing the potential threat/corruption in the very beginning. Jedi Order without the government army is what we saw on the Arena of Geonosis.

Overall in my opinion the Jedi Order in PT was in optimal form and shape of organization and structure. It was certain people "human" mistakes that led to its fall, not the flaws Order organisation/structure itself had. Put the right people in the Council and it will effectively exist another thousand years.

More over, examples of Windu, Yoda, Kenobi and couple other people anwering for Anakin's fall just solidify the rules of the Order when it comes to emotionless. Emotions and ego was the reasons why these people and Anakin himself failed.

 

Am I interpreting correctly that you're saying there's no need for organization or a form of command when a war breaks out? If so I'm sorry but I disagree. IMO this concept also would not turn out any differently whether we're talking about Jedi, or light-side Force-users (which IMO are also essentially Jedi in all but name, and perhaps certain philosophies).

If any of history's wars did not have some sort of main command structure-a role that the Jedi high council played-it would just be...chaos. None of the soldiers would have any sort of strategy for winning the battle/war, and it would all just be...mayhem. We can't just have a bunch of soldiers (or Force-users in this case) wandering around, deciding on their own when, where, how and with whom to fight. There's also the issue of communication. Maybe not all Force-users are aware of how and where to contact some of the others. This is also something that having a council could benefit-everyone would be on the same page-cos they're all reporting to the same entity. There's nothing wrong with being efficient and organized. As I mentioned, IMO having a high council was not one of the flaws of the Jedi Order in the Old Republic-and their successes during the clone wars proved this. If you disagree, then that's fine-you will believe as you will. But I feel that a command structure with some sort of strategic planning entity is essential for country/world/galaxy wide conflicts.