What does TPM even have to do with the rest of the PT?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by B4DaDrkX, Sep 9, 2002.

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  1. B4DaDrkX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2002
    star 1
    It seems that NOTHING that happens in TPM really carries over to AOTC and probably not AOTC. Qui-Gon and Jar-Jar have the lead roles in TPM, but both are almost completly abscent in AOTC. What was the purpose of introducing these characters then?

    The Naboo invasion in TPM doesn't lead to anything in AOTC. It is an isolated incident. I know people say this is a way for Palpatine to gain power, but that's it? Why couldn't this fit in with the Clone Wars? Now, we're only going to get 45 minutes of the (beginnings of the CW) and maybe just a bit in Ep. III!

    It just seems there is very little continutiy in the PT because of TPM and much of the continutiy of the OT suffers because of Menance too. Little (pointless) things like, C3P0 being created by Anakin, and the droids both being on Tatooine before add NOTHING to their characters and only create paradoxes in their memories! IF Lucas bothers to explain this away in Episode III with a "memory wipe", what was the point of even having R2 and 3P0 meet in the PT anyway, if everything they witnessed ESSENTIALLY DOESN"T COUNT?!

    I think Lucas took the easy way out with TPM and threw one low-and-outside. Unfortunately, we all chased the pitched and struck out while he laughed all the way to the bank. IMO, TPM is not even a part of the SW series and when ALL 6 are finally released on video/dvd, I will probably only watch Episodes II-VI in that order.
  2. Master_Grover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 2
    It seems that NOTHING that happens in TPM really carries over to AOTC and probably not AOTC. Qui-Gon and Jar-Jar have the lead roles in TPM, but both are almost completly abscent in AOTC. What was the purpose of introducing these characters then?

    What was the point in introducing Obi Wan in EP4 if he gets killed in the same movie then? Hmmm?

    Little (pointless) things like, C3P0 being created by Anakin, and the droids both being on Tatooine before add NOTHING to their characters and only create paradoxes in their memories! IF Lucas bothers to explain this away in Episode III with a "memory wipe", what was the point of even having R2 and 3P0 meet in the PT anyway, if everything they witnessed ESSENTIALLY DOESN"T COUNT?!

    If it doesnt really matter then, why are you so worked up about it? Really now.

    Anything else?
  3. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Yeah but Grover, you didn't mention all those things are plain dumb....dumb...dumb.
  4. Master_Grover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 2
    Yeah but Grover, you didn't mention all those things are plain dumb....dumb...dumb.

    Please elaborate further.

    What does TPM even have to do with the rest of the PT?

    We've got ourselves Palpatines entrance to office, How Obi Wan comes to train Anakin. Maybe the discovery of Darth Vader for christ sake! All these and the events surrounding it. Makes sense to me.

    Not to mention seeing someone from boyhood, teenager, then older man. Every period of his life. Were there when hes admitted to the order as a young boy, were there when his mother dies in his hands, we WILL be there when he finds out padmes dead. We will be there when he turns darkside, and we'll be there when he repents on his deathbed. Reason enough? I think so.
  5. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    What's the point of introducing Obi-Wan in Episode IV? We see him again as a spirit and important guiding hand for Luke in the next two movies...as well as him being in ALL of the prequels. I can't say the same for Qui-Gon. "Anakin...Anakin...NOOOOOOO!" is hardly a guiding hand as far as I'm concerned. That's more of an reaction than giving any advise or giving further instruction to his "pupil".

    It does matter, because a lot of people think GL "threw one away" with TPM. Now, he's only got 1 1/4 movies to tell about the Clone War(s)...is this still plural? Show the Empire's rise, Anakin's "death", Padme's fate, explain the droid's memory problems, place the droids with Captain Antillies, and on and on. Had he not filled the entire first movie with Jar-Jar's pratfalls and irrelevant battle droids, some of this could've been covered in more detail instead of being rushed. But, if people feel TPM is a masterpiece and fits well with the rest of the saga...so be it. I just can not agree with that at all!
  6. Master_Grover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 2
    We see him again as a spirit and important guiding hand for Luke in the next two movies...as well as him being in ALL of the prequels. I can't say the same for Qui-Gon. "Anakin...Anakin...NOOOOOOO!" is hardly a guiding hand as far as I'm concerned. That's more of an reaction than giving any advise or giving further instruction to his "pupil".

    But this is the thing...you havent seen EP3 yet. Qui Gon knows the deal about the decaying order and has that key to dissapearing. Tell me, how would Obi Wan be able to train luke beyond the grave had it not been for Qui Gon!? Give me a break.

    So Qui Gon HAS to have the exact same scenario as Obi Wan for him to be killed and come back? Pfft. In all logic, thats all that can be understood from that.
  7. Master_Grover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 2
    It does matter, because a lot of people think GL "threw one away" with TPM. Now, he's only got 1 1/4 movies to tell about the Clone War(s)...is this still plural?

    A clone wars fixation. You trash a movie because its not what you expected? With the progression of EP1 to 2, patience... Remember, were not even supposed to KNOW about the clone wars.

    But, if people feel TPM is a masterpiece and fits well with the rest of the saga...so be it. I just can not agree with that at all!

    Ok, but remember, weree not supposed to know about the other movies from an EP1 POV. Each episode gets deeper and deeper into this saga. EP1 would be drooled upon if it was the first of the saga, because nobody would EXPECT it to be something else.

    My 2 cents.
  8. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Pffffff...

    "Place the droids with Captain Antillies" ... Now that IS one thing that would mean nothing and have nothing to do with anything else. And when did the point of a character (Qui-Gon) being in Star Wars begin to depend on whether that character is in ALL the movies or just ONE. Does this mean that you guys think he's pointless because he dies? If so, you have a lot to learn about drama and storytelling.

    "Irrelevant battle droids"? You haven't stopped for a second and asked yourself WHY Palpatine has made sure that his army will be CLONES and not DROIDS? Sure, it didn't have to be written like this. It could just have been people from the go. But that doesn't make the droids "irrelevant" by any stretch, imo.

    "The Naboo invasion in TPM doesn't lead to anything in AOTC".
    It leads to Palpatine being elected Chancellor. It leads to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan meeting Amidala, the future mother of Luke and Leia. It leads to Qui-Gon, Amidala and Obi-Wan meeting Anakin, the future Sith Lord Darth Vader, husband of Amidala and father of Luke and Leia. It leads to Anakin being accepted into training as a Jedi under Obi-Wan Kenobi. It leads to the revelation that the Sith Order is not extinct after all. It effectively sets off a chain of events that includes the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker, the birth of Palpatine's Empire, the Clone Wars and the extermination of the Jedi Order, and in the end the Galactic Civil War of the Original Trilogy. In other words, it leads to one of the 2 greatest sagas ever told on film.

    I'm really sorry that you didn't get that.
  9. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    TPM turned Obi-Wan into a hapless victim who had Anakin pushed on him rather than making a choice to train him.

    Anakin is a little moppet who can build a freakin droid with A.I but cannot detect the anti-escape device under his skin?

    He can build a podracer that's the fastest ever, but SO WHAT? What does that have to do with the plot except for giving Lucas an opportunity to flex some effects muscle(although it did look good didn't it?).

    Why didn't Qui just have Anakin build a rocket like Jimmy Neutron to get them to Coruscant? Annie Neutron Boy Genius!



    Grover: "Remember, were not even supposed to KNOW about the clone wars."

    This is revisionism Grover. :mad:
  10. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    It does matter, because a lot of people think GL "threw one away" with TPM. Now, he's only got 1 1/4 movies to tell about the Clone War(s)...is this still plural?

    We still don't know that the Clones Wars will be in much if any of Episode 3.
  11. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    "...it leads to one of the 2 greatest sagas ever told on film."

    Yeah, the OT is one and the Godfather the other. ;)
  12. Master_Grover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 2
    TPM turned Obi-Wan into a hapless victim who had Anakin pushed on him rather than making a choice to train him.

    Where does it concretely state in the OT that he didnt promise someone, then took it upon himself to train him when he couldve insisted on turning him over to another Jedi because he was too young?

    Anakin is a little moppet who can build a freakin droid with A.I but cannot detect the anti-escape device under his skin?

    Youre making assumptions about their technology. Whats to say that their anti escape device doesnt have some type of technology that makes it incredibly hard to locate? C'mon people!

    Why didn't Qui just have Anakin build a rocket like Jimmy Neutron to get them to Coruscant?

    What the hell are you talking about...? :confused:
  13. Master_Grover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 2
    We still don't know that the Clone Wars will be in much if any of Episode 3.

    There are rumors of a huge battle at the beginning. All in all, thats how much of the clone wars we were meant to see.
  14. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    I haven't seen ANY evidence that clones are better fighters or cheaper, more efficent than droids. NONE. That is Lucas' excuse for making the battle droids so lame in TPM. (I think he just did it as a way of showing violence, without really being violent).

    Clones need to be trained, take YEARS to "develop", need to be clothed, housed, educated, fed, and given some excerise regiment to stay in shape. Although, they are "subservient", they are still HUMAN and subseptible to human error, flaws, and STILL have some emotions and would likely grow weary of combat after watching so many of (themselves) be killed before them, while they gain NOTHING personally by fighting these wars.

    Droids need to be programed, are easliy and cheaply repaired, quickly made, don't need to be fed, or clothed, or "educated", don't need excerise. They follow ALL orders to a "t" without questioning them. They're cost/maintence would logically be a tiny fraction of what a clone costs.

    Most importantly, NOTHING the clones did in AOTC proved they were MORE efficent than the droids. The clones "win" due to overwhelming numbers, and that the separatistis choose to flee the battle. The droids in TPM capture the Queen and take complete control of the PLANET. Looks like a wash to me.

    Having viewed TPM and AOTC, Lucas has done NOTHING to convince me that clones are better, more accurarte, effiecent, or cost effective compared to droids. For these reasons, I believe he should've just started Ep I with the clones and the battle droids in TPM are essentially irrealivant.
  15. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    ShaneP ---

    Anakin built and flew podracers, and he was the only human to do so. Why? If you remember, Obi-Wan says this in ANH - "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strong the Force was with him". That's it.

    Anakin could build droids but not detect that thing somewhere inside his own body. Yeah, that's just the same sport...I can really see how this ruins the saga. Sarcasm.

    And Obi-Wan didn't take it upon himself to train Anakin? Those words are the only account of the story we've had before, and it doesn't matter what you personally pictured the events to be like. Yes, Qui-Gon DOES make Obi-Wan promise to train the boy (in one of my fave SW scenes, btw). And Obi-Wan takes it upon himself to carry his master's responsibilities. He champions the training of Anakin, despite Yoda's warnings. And after seeing Yoda instruct children in AOTC, I find more meaning in the line "I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda ... I was wrong". I can't see how all this is NOT taking it upon himself to train Anakin.

    Come on. You can do better. I'm ready, baby!

    ferelwookie ---

    Yeah, those droids managed to take control of a pacifist world with just about no defenses. Good work. The thing I think you're missing in your bit about the difference between droids and clones is that 1) clones can THINK, droids can not, and 2) the droid army was stopped by blowing up ONE SINGLE ship. It's pretty obvious to me what kind of army is better suited for Palpatine's plans.
  16. Master_Grover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 2
    Im back to back with you Adali! :D
  17. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    Obi-Wan also says "He was the best star pilot in the galaxy." I still haven't seen that yet. To me, a pod racer does not equal a starship. But I suppose you'll use that lame "p.o.v" excuse.

    Lucas has made the PT with no regard of what occured (years before in OUR reality) in the OT. I fear, watching the films in order, there will be countless continuity errors (some MAJOR) and inconsistancies that can't be explained away by a conveinent and moronic "memory wipe" plot device. Just my .02.

    EDIT: Clones can "think"? I thought they were essentially brainwashed to be "easy to control"...Hmmmm...how is that any different than the battle droids, who seem to have some individual cognition in TPM at times. Like I said, why spend 10 times as much, for a organic army which is subseptible to diesease, gas attacks, heart failure, death from accelarated old age, etc. etc. when droids do the same job, cheaper and less messy? :p
  18. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    ferelwookie ---

    I never have used, and never will use, "that lame POV excuse". I don't even know what you mean. I haven't seen Episode III and therefore I can not say if Anakin is "the best star pilot in the galaxy", I have seen him fly podracers and speeders better than anyone else, though. I agree with you that he hasn't piloted among the STARS yet, but then again I don't take words as literally as some - that Obi-Wan brags about a young boy's long lost father is sound logic to me. The only thing Kenobi wants to do in that scene is make Luke feel good about his dad. Big deal...

    May I also add that if you apply the same earthly rationalism and logic to the rest of the Star Wars galaxy as you do to the issue of droids vs clones, Star Wars must truly insult you...
  19. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    "A clone wars fixation. You trash a movie because its not what you expected?"


    Well, be fair, we had these expectations for a reason. It would be different if fans were complaining about things not happening that they had made up themselves, but GL dropped references about the events that happened before Episode IV throughout the OT. That was a big part of the allure of the PT, that we would get to see these things that the characters talked about; the clone wars, the meeting of OB1 and the great pilot he would arrogantly attempt to train, the Old Republic and the destruction of the Jedi order(still to come?). Expecting these things isn't any kind of fixation, it's called paying attention! These are the things George Lucas (through his characters) told us were going to happen.

    "EP1 would be drooled upon if it was the first of the saga..."

    That's your opinion. Another opinion might be that if it had been the first episode released, without the HUGE built in following, the saga would have ended right there. Of course that would just be one opinion.
  20. Master_Grover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 2
    I haven't seen ANY evidence that clones are better fighters or cheaper, more efficent than droids. NONE.

    Obi wans words in AOTC (if droids could think we wouldnt be here) or Qui Gons making an ass out of the droids in the queens hanger didnt give you the hint that Humans are more efficient than droids?

    That is Lucas' excuse for making the battle droids so lame in TPM.

    I think you just dont pay attention. (snaps fingers)

    They follow ALL orders to a "t" without questioning them.

    Sometimes thats good, sometimes its bad. It depends on what the droid has been programmed for and the situation. Humans can improvise far better than droids :D

    NOTHING the clones did in AOTC proved they were MORE efficent than the droids.

    You were not in the heads of the clonetroopers to say that they are no different than the droids. Its impossible to get inside of a head of a clonetrooper. You expect Lucas to do a voice over and make the clone think out loud every step of the way? Really now!




  21. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Master_Grover --- I'm with you too! :)
    You keep going strong here, I have to go to bed now.
    I'll sum up all the oncoming critique in the morning. ;)
  22. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    "He was the best star pilot in the galaxy."

    ferel, :D

    Grover: "Remember, were not even supposed to KNOW about the clone wars."

    Grover, time to explain this. Don't dodge it like before.
  23. Master_Grover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 2
    RogueSith:
    but GL dropped references about the events that happened before Episode IV throughout the OT. That was a big part of the allure of the PT, that we would get to see these things that the characters talked about.

    Yes, but not the way THE FANS envisioned them to a tee. Its ok to look forward to something, but when they get furious because it doesnt pan out how they wanted it, it gets sick and obsessive. Be reasonable.

    All of these things are covered in the PT. I dont see a problem. Sorry.
  24. AOTCStarwchic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 25, 2002
    star 4
    I think it has to do with the OT because is show's how there used to be a Jedi council and Anakin's way when he was a child and then meeting his future wife (Luke&Leias mother) so it might not seem like it has anything to deal with the OT but it does just not that much.
  25. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    But condesending will not gain you respect or win you an argument. (snaps fingers) Excuse me for having a different opinion than you. I thought this was a discussion board. I'll just agree with you. TPM was flawless! Clones, that cost more, need to poop and pee, grow old, get sick, and die if they are "beyond repair" are better and more effective and logical to use than droids that never age, get sick, die, and can be easliy fixed! Lucas is a god! How foolish I was to doubt him and say the PT is his version of revisionist history! The OT should be changed to fit the CLASSIC timeless story of the PT! Of course, without TPM, there would be no original trilogy!


    meh. [face_plain]
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