What does TPM even have to do with the rest of the PT?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by B4DaDrkX, Sep 9, 2002.

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  1. Darth-Schwartz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2002
    star 4
    obi-wan becomes a knight and takes anakin as his padawan
    anakin and padme meet for the first time (who marry in aotc)
    we are introduced to padmes mother (who dies in aotc)
    gui-gon dies (his voice is used in aotc)
    sidious starts his takeover on the republic (contiunes in the next 3 movies)
    r2-d2 and c3po meet in tpm (reunited in aotc)
    yoda sees danger in anakins training (aotc obi-wan is begining to see it too)
    jar jar gets moved up the military ranks (aotc he has a voice in the senate)


    what else did i miss?
  2. hanshootsfirst Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2001
    star 2
    Of course a lot of stuff that is pertinent happens. I think that (and stop me if I'm putting words in everyone's mouth) what people are saying when they say "What the heck does TPM have to do with anything?" is that it was executed without much warmth or attention to the warm and fuzzy minutiae of the series that us SW geeks love.

    It didn't try to make us care.
  3. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    "I care." :D

    Not about TPM, but about AOTC being on video in just 2 months!
  4. hanshootsfirst Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2001
    star 2
    Me too!! IMAX too!! Yipeeee!!
    **pees pants**
    Ooops.
  5. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Me too!! IMAX too!! Yipeeee!!
    **pees pants**
    Ooops.



    ----> Han shoots first!
  6. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    Ok...'ll try and put it another way. I'm not saying "Hey, where is Palpatine's rise to the Senate?". I'm just saying that if more interesting questions, like how the dark lord of the Sith was produced by a utopian-like society, can be skipped over, then how he made the move from Senator to Chancellor could easily be left out as well. Or at least told through expositional dialogue. An entire movie dedicated to it seems like a waste of time - IMO.
    People talk about what a great character Palpatine is, but I find him to be quite thin. He's just evil. Why? Who cares, he just is. We don't know a thing about his motivations, or why he became a Sith, so why is this one little detail of his history integral to the saga. I say it's not.

    And introducing Anakin's mom, could have been done in AOTC. It's possible to introduce a character, establish a relationship, have them die in the same movie and have it still be meaingfull. That's what happened in ANH with Ben. I mean it's not written in stone somewhere that Anakin had to be a slave, and that aspect hasn't brought anything to the story. Being a rebellious young man doesn't require experience with slavery.

    Also, Palpatine's rise to power does not parallel Hitler's. You couldn't find a more different people than the Naboo and post WWI Germany. None of the conditions that made Hitler's rise possible are present in TPM.
  7. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    You are making some good points there, rogue. Palpatine *is* a thin character, but I guess that's something to do with Palpatine being the "ultimate evil" of the saga. You can't really explain ultimate evil. It's not like it's important whether Palpatine skipped his homework :)
  8. Luukeskywalker Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    >>>People talk about what a great character Palpatine is, but I find him to be quite thin. He's just evil. Why? Who cares, he just is. We don't know a thing about his motivations, or why he became a Sith, so why is this one little detail of his history integral to the saga. I say it's not.

    And introducing Anakin's mom, could have been done in AOTC. It's possible to introduce a character, establish a relationship, have them die in the same movie and have it still be meaingfull. That's what happened in ANH with Ben. I mean it's not written in stone somewhere that Anakin had to be a slave, and that aspect hasn't brought anything to the story. Being a rebellious young man doesn't require experience with slavery.

    Also, Palpatine's rise to power does not parallel Hitler's. You couldn't find a more different people than the Naboo and post WWI Germany. None of the conditions that made Hitler's rise possible are present in TPM. <<<

    First how can you say that Palpatine's charactor is thin in your right mind? Thats ludicrus. Any charactor who on the surface acts like he is a nice person, but actually is up to an evil scheme, automatically gets risen to at least a few notches above "then" as a caharactor right off the bat. The if you take into consideration what exactly he is doing and HOW he is ding it, that only adds to the complexity. YOu have no arguement there. Stop while you are ahead. You can't win this one.

    The reason why Lucas introduced Amakin's mom in TPM was because Anakin is a little boy. He needed Anakin to be a little boy at this point in the story (because at that age is when a child is most attached to his mother) and Lucas needed to include him being taken away from his mother at a very young age. Had he been 19 years old, it wouldn't be the same emotionally for him because at that point in a person's life they are usually ready to leave their mom anyways and go out on their own. That part of the story is ESSENTIAL if Anakin turning to the dark side is going to make an logical sense from a charactor point of view.

    And I am not a historian, so I don't know the exacts of how Hitler rose to power. But I do know that he "cuased" himself to be elected Chancellor and once in power he instituted a reign of terror. Sounds familiar huh? Maybe many of the little details about his reign don't paralell Palpatine at all. But in a very basic sense their rises paralell each other. And that is all that should matter.

    Look, anyone can sit at their computer and say "Oh this didn't need to be in TPM" or "that didn't need to be there", etc simply because its not what YOU wanted to be in the movie. But the fact of the matter is that Lucas has thought this whole story through and has come up with a logic for every important event that happens and how it ties in with the story in subsequent chapters.

    If you don't like the acting, directing, writing, or even the lack of "warmth" in TPM that is cool with me. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But just spouting out things that you say are "wrong" in a stortelling sense, is nonsense. Lucas has figured out a logic for everything in this story. If you don't like it, fine. But don't try and convince everyone that certain things should be there or how the story should be told.Simply put, because you couldn't tell a better staory than Lucas, and neither could I. Let the man tell his story.
  9. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    Uh... ok. You're absolutely right about everything.
    I'm just going to agree with you, because there are too many errors and fallacies in your posts to warrant debate, and your attempts at being witty are just plain annoying. You clearly have no idea what your talking about.

    That's just IMO, of course.
    [face_plain]
  10. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Clearly, you don't have any idea what he is talking about.
  11. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    Proofreading might solve that.
  12. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    You could give it a try.
  13. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
  14. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    Maybe we all just have different opinions about the movies and should stop trying to "convince" each other that we're right all of the time.

    I think we need to have a "Let's Be Nice" day, where people who disagree with each other must begin every post with the phrase: "I understand your point of view, BUT..."












    Naw! It'd never work around here! :p
  15. Luukeskywalker Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    I would be willing to participate in a "lets be nice day".

    I think it would be very professional of all of us to do.

    Seriously, I do.
  16. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    I UNDERSTAND your POINT OF VIEW, however I do NOT agree. I don't want a "be nice" day.

    Just kidding. Bring it on. I'm game. :)
  17. B4DaDrkX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2002
    star 1
    With AOTC due out on video next week, I thought we might want to revisit this old thread.

    Having seen AOTC and "studied" it closer on video/dvd, do you feel TPM was/wasn't nessacary? Why or why not?
  18. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    More necessary.

    The crux of AOTC is Anakin and Padme's relationship.

    From Anakin's point of view, the way he sees Padme is all about the girl he's been dreaming about for ten years, rather than the woman she's become. He's not in love with her (by my definition, anyway)- he's infatuated by her.

    On the other hand, she is falling in love with the man who Anakin has become.

    Without TPM, everything that I see in that love story is lost.

    Also- Dooku.

    In TPM, we have Qui Gon Jinn, who at first glance is a noble Jedi, but on closer inspection has very dubious morals. Every time he uses the Force, it's to steal (or try to steal), cheat, or attack.

    I think Dooku was telling Obi Wan the truth about joining him and destroying the Sith. But at the same time, he's been/being corrupted by the power of the Dark Side. He sees the Jedi as weak- he knows that their ability to use the Force is diminished, and that they are little more than puppets of the Senate- which is being controlled by Sidious. But rather than feeling sympathy, he simply sees them as his new enemy. Again, without TPM, I doubt I'd see any of that.

    Without the 3 way duel at the end of TPM, Yoda's fight would look like a "normal" Jedi's way of duelling.

    So that's why my 3 favourite bits of AOTC rely entirely on TPM.
  19. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    For all fairness I must admit that I find it difficult to connect TPM's Anakin to AOTC's Anakin...

    Could be the casting though.
  20. dolphin Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 1999
    star 4
    I think we'll have to wait until Episode III before we can assess Episode I. For one, we'll be able to see all of the films in sequential order. Also, certain aspects of TPM such as Aurra Sing and Anakin's origin will hopefully be answered.
  21. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    SRN: You said: In TPM, we have Qui Gon Jinn, who at first glance is a noble Jedi, but on closer inspection has very dubious morals. Every time he uses the Force, it's to steal (or try to steal), cheat, or attack.

    I disagree. Everytime Qui-Gon uses the Force, it´s either to solve the trade dispute or to help Jar Jar and Anakin in the easiest ways possible.
    Qui-Gon doesn´t cause anyone harm in doing so and I can guarantee that any Jedi in the council would use the same means if they felt the way he does about these two characters.
    The only problem is, they don´t feel that way.

    Other than that, I agree with your post :)
  22. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    That's been my problem with QG's character from day one: it seems his ends always justifies his means. He often takes the moral low-ground and feels this is okay because he's doing it for a higher cause. Whatever his cause is, it does not excuse his less than honorable behavior IMO.

    Personally, I STILL don't see QG having much of an impact on the rest of the PT (even in ghost-form) because his original influence on Anakin was so brief and minimal. The only thing I can say about Qui-Gon, as far as linking him to the rest of the series is, maybe this is where the "seeds" of Anakin's own "bending the rules" are planted.
  23. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Lars_Muul

    >>>Qui-Gon doesn´t cause anyone harm in doing so and I can guarantee that any Jedi in the council would use the same means if they felt the way he does about these two characters.

    Maybe they would- I don't know.

    But as for whether Qui Gon causes anyone any harm? Does Qui Gon stop to think if the Gungans can spare a submarine? Or if Watto has enough money to give away a hyperdrive for worthless currency? Or the consequences of leaving Shmi behind on Tatooine on her own? Or the consequences of placing the power of the Force into Anakin's hands through his Jedi training?

    Yes, you can say that in the bigger picture, these are negligible consequences. But where do you draw the line? Who passes judgement on whether the "bad" is an acceptable consequence of the "good"?
  24. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    SRN

    Does Qui Gon stop to think if the Gungans can spare a submarine? Or if Watto has enough money to give away a hyperdrive for worthless currency? Or the consequences of leaving Shmi behind on Tatooine on her own? Or the consequences of placing the power of the Force into Anakin's hands through his Jedi training?

    I have a hard time believing that he didn«t give those things any thought. I think he realised, though, that these people would manage just fine. I stand by my view that he didn«t cause them any great harm. These were minor sacrifices(save Shmi«s) needed to solve the trade dispute and get Anakin to become a Jedi.
    Regarding Shmi; Qui-Gon probably sensed that she was willing to do anything for her son. He also knew that she thought Anakin deserved better than a slave«s life.
  25. SithLord127 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 2
    I was reading the first page of this thread and Adali-Kiri and ferelwookie say they have never seen Anakin fly a ship, I always thought that the little boy in the yellow Naboo fighter with R2 in the back who destroyed the Droid control ship was Anakin. Any 9 year old who single handedly blows up an enemy ship as large as a Star Destroyer is a damn good star pilot.




    The Phantom Menace you should watch again, yes. Hmmmm?
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