What does TPM even have to do with the rest of the PT?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by B4DaDrkX, Sep 9, 2002.

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  1. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    Those are some interesting observations that I agree with for the most part. I think a lot of us have been so used to ANH being called "Star Wars", that we have grown accustomed to the story starting there. I'm not the biggest fan of TPM. There are parts of it that I hate but I accept it as a star wars movie. AOTC was better by a long shot and Episode III has the opportunity to solidfy the PT in the hearts of the people that grew up with the OT.
  2. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    Sometimes when I watch the speeder chase through Coruscant I think:

    "Isn't this exactly what I wanted to see when I was 11 years old and the OT was finished?"
  3. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    Unlike many of my fellow "bashers", I DO agree with you on that count. I really thought AOTC was a much better movie than TPM and "felt" more like a SW film. I've also appreciated it MUCH more having seen it a few times on video than just the one time I saw it in the movies. (Repeat viewings of TPM only made me angier and hated the movie MORE.) I believe there is still some hope for Ep. III being the movie a lot of us "old timers" want to see. If I still didn't have some hope for that, I probably wouldn't be still posting on these boards!
  4. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    Check my sig!

    Either that or "Sith hits the fan" 8-}




    Qui-Gon will return!
  5. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    Episode III could have a very strong redeeming effect on the PT. I agree this is the movie probably most of us old-times really wanted to see. This would be the movie that held all the answers to the questions we had after watching ANH.
  6. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    AOTC can't help but to be better than TPM... TPM was just a big ol' corn-imbued chunk a' crap. It had so much potential and yet for the most part it wound up being the proverbial Seinfeldian "film about nothing". Yes, a few important set-up events occurred in TPM, but they were presented so lackadaisically and bereft of any real sense of compelling urgency that for the most part I just find it really difficult to care. Other than the three-way saber fight (which was flashy enough to at least create its own visual drama for me) the only part of TPM that really holds any interest for me at this point is Palpatine's political scheming. Ian pulls off Palpatine well enough to transcend a lot of the overall weakness of the story, and the bait-and-switch tactics he employs are pretty clever.

    AOTC had nowhere to go but up after TPM, and IMHO it was noticeably better. I place it alongside ROTJ... fun, looks fantastic, has a passable story which bites in places and excels in others, but isn't quite up to snuff next to ANH and TPM, which were made deliberately and attentively enough by Lucas and his people to be (at this point) in a class by themselves.

    Episode III COULD approach that level of quality (though Lucas not being hungry enough these days to really need to prove anything with a really tight story, I don't expect it to equal or surpass Episodes IV and V) and personally I hope it does. For that to happen, though, Lucas has GOT to stop phoning in the live-action parts in favor of spending all his energy on the visual effects. Episode III cannot afford another debacle on the level of AOTC's fireplace scene if it's going to really succeed in rising to the level of the episodes immediately following it. It's not enough that we see Anakin's fall to the dark side... that transition and everything leading up to it must be dramatically impeccable. Merely presenting story elements for the sake of "Oh, so that's how it happened..." isn't nearly enough. Dramatically-speaking, that part of the movie simply has to blow us away, and continue to do so every time we watch it ever after.

    AOTC's confession scene was good... Anakin's turn to the dark side in Episode III has to make the confession scene seem like "Two fighters against a STAR DESTROYER?" by comparison. ;)

    Seriously... it needs to be written really well, and Hayden has got to turn the Skywalker whine into a Vader roar well before he gets to the big transformation scene. We've seen "awkward post-adolescent"... now we need to see "powerful young man consumed by hate and anger".

    It'll never make TPM any better IMHO, but it'll give us a hell of a good movie if it's pulled off right.

    And now for a late-night pipe and then I'm gonna sack out on the couch and give Clones another watch. Good night, all.
  7. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Double posts... is there anything they can't do?

    ;)
  8. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    There was no need for QGJ to stay alive. His importance was discovering Anakin in TPM. He will be equally important being dead and coming back in Episode III.


    I agree that there was no need; that's why Qui-Gon should have been the apprentice, making it even more dramatic when Obi-Wan lost him, and making it more tragic when he *also* loses Anakin to the Dark Side.

    He's still a padawan in TPM. It's not time for him to be a main character. That's why he gets more screen time in AOTC and probably even more in Episode III. What lines does Obi-Wan not make work. Yoda trains ALL padawans until they're in their teens. At that point, they're assigned a Master. Obi-Wan was probably reckless as a teenager.


    Many agree that this contradicts the original trilogy too much. We would have connected more to the character if he was properly used in TPM. Obi-Wan should be the main character, to add to the drama of this old man hiding on a desert world and dying in "ANH".

    He was there to kill QGJ and to be killed by Obi-Wan. This was used to show how mature Obi-Wan is becoming and how good he is as a Jedi.

    Yes, that was his purpose, plotwise. But that doesn't mean he must have little screentime. He is the villain of the film, and is barely seen. If he was used more effectively, the encounter in the hangar would be more exciting, and personally I think it would be better if he killed the Jedi and escaped, to return in "Episode II".

    I agree this is a bit backwards but she has to stay involved in politics.

    It would not be difficult to arrange the story so that she either was a Queen all the time, or Senator all the time.

    That was used to show the complete fall of a tragic hero. He starts as an innocent kid with hints of evil and becomes the most ruthless villian in the galaxy. The whole saga of star wars deals with his rise, fall and redemption.

    I saw no hints of evil in TPM. His slavery doesn't have any effect on the story. The way he easily leaves his mother with the Jedi is bad writing. Him being the Chosen One is bad writing. Yes, it fits with all this mythological stuff GL throws in, but not when the OT is established differently.

    I think that was just done for kicks.

    Perhaps it was done for kicks, but it surely makes the character just another silly cartoon character.

    I think that was great. It parallels nicely with Luke working on his father's creation in ANH. It also adds continuity to the saga. The one constant in the entire series are the two lovable droids.

    We definitely disagree on this one. I think it's the worst part of the saga thus far. It's not a parallell, it's a hideous coincidence. Threepio is thrown into the mix without any effort to give the character a reason for being in the film. As a protocol droid, it would make much more sense that he was either part of the Queen's entourage, or more dramatically, Palpatine's protocol droid.

    I'm not sure how they could have done that any better. To me it was set up nicely.

    Nicely isn't good enough for me :p. It could have been set up better, of course, but yes, nice will do. A better way would be to have Palpatine already in the election as the story opens, and with scenes revealing his true identity to create a more dynamic effect between him and the other characters.

    Well... when I watch TPM I end up thinking "This had BETTER get better!"

    [face_laugh]
  9. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    You make some very valid observations. We'll have to agree to disagree about these points. The two prequels aren't perfect by any means but I don't think they're as bad as people make them out to be.
  10. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    So with any luck, every episode in the saga will get better than the previous one.


    Except maybe for the last one. ;)
  11. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Master Salty, it is good to see that you and I can disagree and be done with it :) Not the kind of experience I'm used to here :D
  12. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    I'm not one to argue forever. It's really impossible to change someone's mind. You put your best argument out there and you leave it be. There's no sense in getting all crappy about it. I enjoy a good argument but there comes a time where you just let it go and agree to disagree.
  13. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    Hmmm lets see, things TPM lent to the overall saga and namely AOTC:

    - The Naboo invasion served as a device for Palaptine to rise to power in the galaxy.

    - The character of Qui-Gon Jinn served as the protagonist that set all of the events into motion, echoing the role of "Ben" Kenobi in the original trilogy. Qui-Gon gave purposeful meaning to Obi-Wan taking Anakin on as his padawan learner, since it was his dying master's last wish. And as it seems now, Qui-Gon will be responsible for discovering that it is possible for a Jedi to retrain their identity after death. Without this, Obi-Wan would not have been able to guide Luke after his untimely death in ANH, including prompting Luke to use the Force when destroying the Death Star or even revealing the location of Yoda to him so that he could finish his training.

    - Established the introductions of Anakin and Padme's relationship, and sat the base for where AOTC picked up.

    - Reasoning for Count Dooku to leave the Jedi Order with the death of his former apprentice, Qui-Gon Jinn.

    - Establied the trait of overconfidence in the Jedi Order, planting the seeds and reasoning for their future demise.
  14. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    TPM definitely lends some information to the PT. However, I think GL totally screwed up by:

    1) introducing Darth Maul instead of Count Dooku in TPM;

    2) did not show how easily the commerce guilds and trade factions worked together in the Senate

    3) did not clearly establish a relationship between Anakin and Padme.

    4) did not show Count Dooku's ideals about the Jedi Order
  15. Esplin9466 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2002
    star 4
    >>Yeah, how does he go from having NO military Republic rank in AOTC to a GENERAL in III?

    Luke destroyed the Death Star and all he got was a commanders rank!<<

    Don't forget, Lando became a general after doing absolutely nothing. Surely a Jedi Knight who's actually shown some combat prowess can do just as good. ;)

    >>He is the villain of the film, and is barely seen. If he was used more effectively, the encounter in the hangar would be more exciting, and personally I think it would be better if he killed the Jedi and escaped, to return in "Episode II".<<

    All right, man! Maul fans unite! Woo-hoo!

    Sorry, I just couldn't restrain myself. :D
  16. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    What annoys me most about AOTC is its complete detachment from TPM, so indeed was the point of TPM?
  17. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    What annoys me most about AOTC is its complete detachment from TPM, so indeed was the point of TPM?

    I agree. It is the same story but very disjointed by the lack of story flowing from one to the other.
  18. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    The point of TPM is:

    -To show the galaxy in "a more civilized age" and "before the dark times, before the Empire".

    -How Palpatine rose into power and what events led to this moment.

    -Where Anakin Skywalker came from, who his parents were, and when he first became a Jedi.

    -What the Jedi were like in their prime.

    -What the Republic is like.

    -Who and what Luke and Leia's mother was.

    -How Obi-wan met Anakin and when he vowed to train him as a Jedi.

    -How Anakin met Padme Amidala, who will be his future wife and the mother of the twins.

    -What begins Anakin's path to the darkside.

    and

    -What the darkside force-users are called since we only know Vader and the Emperor use the darkside in the OT and what kind of relationship these people had with the Jedi.

    All of this was covered in TPM and I disagree that AOTC was detached from TPM because it picked up exactly where TPM left off.

    "Many agree that this contradicts the original trilogy too much."

    ESB has already contradicted Obi-wan's comments about Anakin and Vader from ANH when Lucas decided to make these 2 characters the same person so I don't see why anyone would still believe anything Obi-wan says knowing full well it could be just another "certain point of view"?

    We should apply a grain of salt before we take Obi-wan's word in anything.
  19. ShaakRider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    "Point of view is practically the whole point of the saga."

    LOL
    I thought SW is about friendships, compassion, good and evil, destiny and choices, fall and redemption. Now, thank you for letting me know its about POV!!! Oh, my inaccurate assumptions!

    When I first saw TPM, I had very few memories about the OT, thus I had no assumptions at all. I enjoyed it after all, though I got shocked at many points. Then I re-watched the OT, and I got shocked again, because every time Ben said something about the past, I felt "Well, not really... :(" instead of "Yeah, the good old times :cool:", or something
    It's simply unbelievable for me that Ben remembers those things that way.
  20. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I think that without TPM to set the stage, very little about AOTC would make sense. There is a lot of time that goes by between TPM and AOTC, but I really don't see how we are missing anything. In AOTC he is suddenly arrogant, but the reasons why he becomes arrogant are all in TPM. Anakin starts out as a sweet kid who knows nothing of greed, and after being told he is the chosen one and having others point out he has an obscene number of midichlorians compared to every one else, he starts to think a lot of himself.

    That elevator ride to Amidala's apartment tells us enough about Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship that we don't need to see that whole time they were together. We can see how Obi-Wan scolds him in a caring way, and we can see how Anakin cracks wise while still listening to his advice.

    Another thing TPM does is it sets up the political backdrop. It shows us how the government works, and how it is flawed. Obviously Palpatine's rise to power is central to the entire saga.
  21. Levi8675309 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2003
    star 1
    Shaak, you've hit the nail right on the head. In the first 20 minutes of ANH there's so much contradiction with what has gone on thus far in the PT, you have to wonder if George Lucas has even watched his own movies in the past 20 years.

    Very early on in ANH, Obi-Wan says, "He was a good friend," referring to Anakin. Two movies through the PT, and we still don't have that friendship established. We're just supposed to assume they became friends between the events in Episdoe I, in which they had almost no relationship, and Episode II, where they are bickering at each other from the start! Where's the friendship? Wasn't that one of the main points of this trilogy? If it wasn't, it should have been, the dramatic pay-off when Anakin betrays Obi-Wan in Episode III could have had people weeping in the audience. That ship has sailed since George didn't bother to establish a good relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan.

    A lot of the gushers will say that Episode I did plenty to move the events along in the PT by introducing Anakin and Palaptine's rise to power. But a much better movie surely could have been made! Strip out the Gungans, Qui-Gon, midichlorians, the droids, all the extraneous crap that wastes 90% of the movie, and make all of the aspects of the film's story relevant to the overall story-arc of the trilogy.

    TPM seems a little like the Hobbit if you ask me, it seems like it doesn't belong in a trilogy, but is more the prologue.
  22. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>Shaak, you've hit the nail right on the head. In the first 20 minutes of ANH there's so much contradiction with what has gone on thus far in the PT, you have to wonder if George Lucas has even watched his own movies in the past 20 years.

    The only "contradiction" is what's contradicted in ESB and ROTJ.

    >>>Very early on in ANH, Obi-Wan says, "He was a good friend," referring to Anakin. Two movies through the PT, and we still don't have that friendship established. We're just supposed to assume they became friends between the events in Episdoe I, in which they had almost no relationship, and Episode II, where they are bickering at each other from the start!

    And Anakin's describing Obi Wan as "like a father", and risking everything to go and rescue him...

    >>>>TPM seems a little like the Hobbit if you ask me, it seems like it doesn't belong in a trilogy, but is more the prologue.

    It's not in a trilogy.

    Act 1= TPM
    Act 2= AOTC & Episode III
    Act 3= Original Trilogy.
  23. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    "And Anakin's describing Obi Wan as "like a father"

    Too much irony, must escape...

    You've just proven what bashers have been saying. Father/son relationships are not the same as 'good friends'. It's an entirely different dynamic, that fits instead into the mentor/pupil relationship that characterises their bickering and ObiWan's irritating 'my young apprentice' attitude.
  24. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    He was a good friend, who was almost like a father to him.

    I don't see any contradiction here unless one insists on it.
  25. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>You've just proven what bashers have been saying. Father/son relationships are not the same as 'good friends'. It's an entirely different dynamic, that fits instead into the mentor/pupil relationship that characterises their bickering and ObiWan's irritating 'my young apprentice' attitude.

    So, you don't think Anakin should have been Obi Wan's pupil?

    :confused:

    And it's impossible to be a good friend to your father/mentor?

    :confused:
    :confused:
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