What does TPM even have to do with the rest of the PT?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by B4DaDrkX, Sep 9, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Levi8675309 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2003
    star 1
    You guys are defining friend way different than I would.

    Han and Chewie are friends. Luke and Han are friends. Lando and Han are friends. R2 and 3PO are friends. Watching their characters interact, you can tell that they enjoy each other's company. They laugh at each other's jokes, they help each other out, they worry about each other, and they SMILE at each other.

    When have we seen Obi-Wan and Anakin smile at one another? Has Obi-Wan ever said anything to Anakin other than telling him to act more like a Jedi, to remember his training? Has Anakin ever done anything but whine to Obi-Wan? And wasn't the only reason Anakin went to save Obi-Wan because Padme wanted to?

    If Obi-Wan had said in ANH, "He was like a son to me," I'd buy Anakin's line, "He's like a father to me." But Obi-Wan said friends, and friendship and father-son relationships are two entirely different things. The climactic Obi-Wan-Anakin fight isn't going to be a dramatic and hesitant brawl between two best friends, it's going to be student versus teacher, and the latter is a much more boring event than the former.

    Epsiode I should have been a buddy pic, like Lethal Weapon or Bad Boys.
  2. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Anakin looks up to Obi Wan as his teacher/father figure. He's somebody who has taught him all that he's learnt since he left Tatooine. But now he feels like he's surpassed Obi Wan's teachings, and he's being held back.

    Obi Wan doesn't look to Anakin as his son though. He looks on him as his student, and his friend.

    So when they eventually come to blows, Anakin will be full of hatred for Obi Wan- for holding him back, for getting in his way, for stopping him from doing what he wanted to. But I seriously doubt that Obi Wan will have the same attitude towards Anakin.

    I doubt that when Obi Wan casts him into the volcano or whatever he ends up doing, he'll be particularly happy/pleased/glad/triumphant.
  3. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Obi-Wan and Anakin smile at each other in the elevator, Obi-Wan and Anakin discuss pollitics while Amidala sleeps, and Anakin wanted to go save Obi-Wan. When Padme suggest he doesn't care about him Anakin emphatically denies that and says the only reason he doesn't go is because Windu told him to stay put.
  4. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    So, he disobeys the council for a girl he hardly knows; but refuses to do so for his friend and master of over 10 years??? ?[face_plain]

    I understand he's pent up and wants to get jiggy with Padme', but you've got to take care of your friend too. A true friend would drop everything and sacrifice for their friend (like Luke) without questioning it...not do it just for some nookie and then have "second thoughts" about helping his "best friend" out. Seems a bit suspect to me.
  5. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Did Obi Wan ever ask Anakin to disobey the council?

    And when did Anakin have second thoughts?

    :confused:

    >>>A true friend would drop everything and sacrifice for their friend (like Luke) without questioning it...

    Like Anakin did when Padme fell out of the dropship, but Obi Wan wouldn't let him?

    Somehow, i don't think "dropping everything to save a friend" is something that Anakin will be remembered for making the correct decision about...
  6. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    Obi-Wan DIDN'T TELL Anakin to disobey the council, but he does it to find his mother (partly to impress Padme' IMO) but he originally REFUSES to go to Genosis to get Obi-Wan. That doesn't sound like much of a friend to me. Like I wrote, Luke was willing to give up his training (perhaps forever) to save his friends. I don't see the same selfless sacrifice in Anakin's relationship with Obi-Wan.
  7. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Some interesting discussions here.

    Its cear to see those not happy with TPM will go to the earth to make all their points seem valid.

    I wont betray my own beliefs that TPM has alot to do with everything we see in Star Wars.
    I don't know whether some have not been paying attention or just want to ignorantly forget what TPM showed, or just feel like making negative points out of TPM.

    I don't really need to say why TPM has something to do with the rest of the saga (not just the PT), its been said for me.

    Its funny how some fans think that Obi-Wan's words are completely accurate, hell ESB & ROTJ proved him wrong on at least one account.

    But anyway as I've been told: "You only see what you want to see, hell with whats actually there"
  8. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Obi-Wan and Anakin smile at each other in the elevator, Obi-Wan and Anakin discuss pollitics while Amidala sleeps, and Anakin wanted to go save Obi-Wan. When Padme suggest he doesn't care about him Anakin emphatically denies that and says the only reason he doesn't go is because Windu told him to stay put.

    So a smile and one disagreement about politics and that covers "he was a good friend...". S T R E T C H
  9. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    DarthTerrious

    Its cear to see those not happy with TPM will go to the earth to make all their points seem valid.

    And vice versa

    I wont betray my own beliefs that TPM has alot to do with everything we see in Star Wars.

    Betray your beliefs? It isn't a religion. We are talking films here.

    I don't know whether some have not been paying attention or just want to ignorantly forget what TPM showed, or just feel like making negative points out of TPM.

    Perhaps they have been paying attention and just disagree with your "beliefs".

    I don't really need to say why TPM has something to do with the rest of the saga (not just the PT), its been said for me.

    Good for you. I guess you have nothing more to say. :)

    Its funny how some fans think that Obi-Wan's words are completely accurate, hell ESB & ROTJ proved him wrong on at least one account.

    So, because he lied once to Luke, everything else has to be innacurate too? If anything, the fact he deceived Luke so much about one point would lead me to think he would try and avoid doing so about things that are not so important like who trained him, and whether he was good friends with his father. Why would he want to decieve or be innacurate here I ask?

    But anyway as I've been told: "You only see what you want to see, hell with whats actually there"

    Some could use that to apply to you too.

  10. Levi8675309 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2003
    star 1
    You guys can say, "Oh in one scene Anakin smiled at Obi-Wan!" or "They discussed politics!" but that doesn't mean anything. Walking out of the theatre, I wasn't left with the impression that they were friends. Obi-Wan was always preachy, Anakin was always whiny. That's how I saw it, and I'm all for respecting everyone's opinion and everything, but how one could walk away thinking, "Man, Obi-Wan and Anakin have a legendary friendship that will go down in the history of friendships as the greatest friendship of all time," is beyond me.
  11. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    Anakin states that Obi-Wan is like a father. However, the way Obi-Wan acted in TPM towards Anakin (not another pathetic lifeform) and the same stiff mentor style used in TPM, it is hard to believe that Anakin looks up to him at all.
  12. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>Obi-Wan DIDN'T TELL Anakin to disobey the council, but he does it to find his mother (partly to impress Padme' IMO) but he originally REFUSES to go to Genosis to get Obi-Wan.

    It's clear (to me, anyway) that he goes to find his mother on a very personal mission- not to impress Padme.

    By the time he gets his message from Obi Wan, I think he's aware that he's been a naughty Jedi and doens't want to disobey any more orders. But he's ordered to protect Padme, and she says that's where he's going, so in a flouting of the rules that Qui Gon would have been proud of, he goes off to Geonosis with a big grin on his face.

    >>>>Like I wrote, Luke was willing to give up his training (perhaps forever) to save his friends. I don't see the same selfless sacrifice in Anakin's relationship with Obi-Wan.

    Obviously. They have a very different relationship. (I don't see Luke turning on Han and dumping him in a volcano either...)

    But I'll be surprised if Anakin doesn't "give up his training (perhaps forever) to save his friend" in Episode III... Won't be Obi Wan he's trying to save though...

    Come to think of it, he nearly did it already in AOTC, didn't he?
  13. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>So a smile and one disagreement about politics and that covers "he was a good friend...". S T R E T C H

    And trekking across the galaxy, risking everything to rescue him just like Luke did with Han, Leia and Chewie... (Remember that Obi Wan didn't see his chat with Padme.)

    Depends on your point of view...

    >>>That's how I saw it, and I'm all for respecting everyone's opinion and everything, but how one could walk away thinking, "Man, Obi-Wan and Anakin have a legendary friendship that will go down in the history of friendships as the greatest friendship of all time," is beyond me.

    Err... has anyone ever said anything remotely similar to that?

    The phrase "straw man" springs to mind...
  14. RevengeofDahveed Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2002
    star 2
    relax, Nerd. ive read a statement like that from gushers several times on this board.

    not every post is aimed at you, Nerd. so chill baby.
  15. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Hawk:

    So, because he lied once to Luke, everything else has to be innacurate too? If anything, the fact he deceived Luke so much about one point would lead me to think he would try and avoid doing so about things that are not so important like who trained him, and whether he was good friends with his father. Why would he want to decieve or be innacurate here I ask?

    i should have been more clear, I apologise.
    Not everything Obi-Wan says is inaccurate, of course. And some of his statements shouldnt be taken at face value (such as his claiming Yoda taught him, and as seen by the bear clan scene in a way Yoda did teach him as he did all the padawans in the Order).

    And obviously his statements (except the Vader comment from ANH) aren't meant to deceive but they are changed by the grain of time and nostalgia (especially towards how he saw Anakin) plus he likes to make Luke feel good about his father.
    So much emphasis is made of Obi-Wans statements about Anakin being a great pilot, sorry STARpilot, but judging by his piloting skills of a speeder and a podracer its easily concluded (to me anyway) that he is a excellent starpilot, afterall no mattr what you pilot you still show the same skills.
    I can understand some fans wanting that statement to shown true, literally but I myself am not too bothered.

    Betray your beliefs? It isn't a religion. We are talking films here.

    It doesn't need to be a religion to have beliefs my friend. You can believe something about anything and stick to that belief, even though you're faced with heavy criticism of it.

    Some could use that to apply to you too.

    Very true. Thats the one thing about viewing art, whether it be film, literature or art, we all see what we want to see. It can be negative or positive, but its subjective and though we can disagree neither of our points are wrong.
    My quote was meant generally not aimed at those who dislike TPM or the PT.
  16. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Damn good post Adali-Kiri. Summed up what I wanted to say. Geez. Accounts of events change in ones mind over time. Not every little detail is going to be remembered. Lucas is following thing fine. You do not think he knows what was said in the OT? come on people. Get real!
  17. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    RevengeofDahveed,

    I wasn't taking it personally- I just haven't seen anyone say anything like that.

    Mind you, I don't go in the AOTC forum very often...
  18. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    What also seems fairly clear is that Anakin is scared of failing in his attempt to save Obi-Wan -- that losing his mother has made him gun-shy.
  19. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    The thing I can't get my head around is the fact that we know almost nothing about the 10 years between TPM and AOTC.

    I also can't accept the fact that Anakin hasn't returned to Tatooine already to save his mother... and that he hasn't seen Padme either.
  20. Ultimate Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2000
    star 3
    I think Anakin isn't as eager to disobey the council the second time (no matter how good of friends he is with Obi-Wan) is that the last time he disobeyed the Council (and Windu) his mother ended up dead and he slaughtered a whole village.

    As to the friendship thing, it all over the movie. Their "arguements" are friendly jabs, they show genuine concern for each other, and respect each other. Anakin sees Obi-Wan as a father, and Obi-Wan really wants Anakin to succed. Anakin thinks that his methods are a little too critical, and Obi-Wan thinks Anakin needs to concentrate and listen more.
  21. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "So, because he lied to Luke once, everything else has to be inaccurate too?"

    When you discover that everything about your life is a lie and the monster who killed your father is, in fact, YOUR FATHER, would you actually believe anything else Obi-wan says about your father? I think not.

    Anyone who has ever been lied to would never again trust the person who lied to them and nothing that person says will convince them otherwise unless he/she has any evidence that proves they're not lying and all Obi-wan has is words which makes it difficult to believe whether any positive words about Anakin are either fact or fiction.

    Redxavier-

    AOTC has already covered what went on during the 10-year gap.
  22. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    PMT99 - Elaborate please, AOTC gave us a few throaway lines about nests of gundarks and settling disputes... that tells us nothing about where they've been, what they've seen, the whole training process throughout the TEN YEARS...

    BTW, EU stuff doesn't count.
  23. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    They have been off protecting the galaxy as Master and apprentice. They don't have time in AOTC to go through evey second of that time for 20 years. You get the idea they have had some wild adventures together going on that converstation in the elevator. Anything more would have been uneccesary in the grand scheme of the story being told in AOTC.
  24. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Let's see...

    The whole training process is already covered in the scene where Yoda trains the Younglings which gives us an idea how Obi-wan trains Anakin and if that isn't enough, then watch ESB so you'll know what the rest of the training process is like.

    Where they've been? Well, Anakin has been getting secret guidance as well as getting his ego boosted by Palpatine for a long time which explains why Anakin is impatient with the pacing of his training, ignorant of Obi-wan's teachings, and so eager to get out of his shadow.

    Anakin didn't return to Tatooine because he's too busy training as a Jedi and plus, he made a commitment to the Jedi Order and that commitment involves not forming any attachments which means that Anakin can never again go back to his home planet or see either his mom or Padme.

    If Padme's term as Queen is anything like our President's term, then you could say she spent 8 years being the Queen of Naboo. By Year 9, Jamilla took her place and Padme is then appointed as her Senator. By then, she spent the rest of the year gaining supporters in her quest to abolish the Military Creation Act that the Republic has created in attempts to create an army to assist the Jedi to combat the Seperatists. As mentioned on the opening scroll, she returned to Coruscant by Year 10 to make her presence felt and to continue her opposition of the MCA.

    We also learn that Nute Gunray, after having 4 trials in the Supreme Court, is still viceroy of the Trade Federation and due to Qui-Gon's death, Count Dooku leaves the Jedi Order, meets Darth Sidious(after learning everything about him from Gunray), and became his new Sith apprentice.

    Then at the same time, someone(either Dooku or Sidious/Palpatine) kills Sifo-Dyas, uses his name to convince the Kaminoans to create a clone army, and erases Kamino from the Jedi Archives. Then Dooku goes to the moons of Bogden and hires Jango Fett to be the prime canidate for the creation of that clone army and then forms a Seperatist Movement as part of a plot to split the Republic in 2 and create a phony war so that Palpatine can gain more power in the Senate.

    What they've seen? As Anakin and Padme has explained, the Jedi never goes to the places they liked to be in, meet the people they like to meet, or be with the ones they love due to their "no attachment" rule so they have no social lives except within the Jedi Temple.

    There's your complete summary of what went down during the 10-year gap between TPM and AOTC.
  25. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Pretty thin stuff. Still doesn't explain why Anakin hasn't at the very least visited his mother, or hasn't had any contact with Padme.

    I would have thought that anything relating to the training of Anakin would have been important. Instead, we are told everything.

    "The whole training process is already covered in the scene where Yoda trains the Younglings"

    You've got to be joking! You are... right?

    "then watch ESB so you'll know what the rest of the training process is like."

    Hmm... so the Jedi Academy does... what exactly?

    Also, how do you know that the training process for Anakin was the same for Luke?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.