What does TPM even have to do with the rest of the PT?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by B4DaDrkX, Sep 9, 2002.

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  1. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Pretty thin stuff. Still doesn't explain why Anakin hasn't at the very least visited his mother, or hasn't had any contact with Padme.

    WTF? Sorry but PMT99 just posted why.
    Anakin couldn't visit his mother because he had his training to deal with and had to constantly go arund the galaxy solving dispute after dispute. When you become a Jedi you give up that which you left to join the Jedi. And his nightmares and worries for his mother didn't start until around AOTC anyway so there was no need to see his mother.

    And he couldn't visit Padme, for one thing as I've stated he has his training to consider and doing his job, the other is that Padme is a very busy person herself.


  2. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    And his nightmares and worries for his mother didn't start until around AOTC anyway so there was no need to see his mother.

    Well I'd take issue with that. The fact was that when Anakin left Shmi she was a slave with an explosive device in her body who could be sold at a moments notice. That's a pretty nightmarish situation to be in. Anakin could have chosen to defy the rules earlier if he so wished...but he didn't.

    Yet another reason to despise that pathetic excuse for a Jedi. :)


  3. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Well I'd take issue with that. The fact was that when Anakin left Shmi she was a slave with an explosive device in her body who could be sold at a moments notice. That's a pretty nightmarish situation to be in. Anakin could have chosen to defy the rules earlier if he so wished...but he didn't.

    Personally I felt it was wrong for Anakin to not have seen his mother at all between TPM & AOTC. But the PT Jedi weren't flexible and didn't believe that allowing him to visit his mother was a good idea.
    And yes Anakin had left her in a situation he would have liked to have changed but when he joined the Jedi and took up the Code he knew he couldn't defy them. And remember he never has a solo mission until he is to protect Padme, thats one of the factors for him defying the Jedi and going to save Shmi. Before AOTC he was held on a leash by Obi-Wan, and he couldnt get away now could he? Not with Obi-Wan keeping him at bay.
  4. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Well, could Obi Wan have forced Anakin to stay with him? Did Anakin ever try to visit his mom? Would Obi Wan have objected if Anakin had mad some attempt to free Shmi? Could some money have changed hands to buy Shmi and get her off Tatooine?

    And do the Jedi consider a child loving their mother and wanting her to be freed from slavery wrong? Or is it only wrong if that particular child is training to be a Jedi? Is it ok for a Padawan to become attached to his teacher? If the teacher got bonked over the head and forced into slavery, would it be ok for the padawan to free them? Is there any way I can find the answers to these questions without having to go through the EU?



  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    They beleive it is wrong to allow Padawans for form attatchments.

    The idea is that Jedi give their entire selves to the Jedi order. Emotional attatchments serve to cloud their judgment, as we can already see is the case with Anakin.
  6. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    JenX,

    Well, could Obi Wan have forced Anakin to stay with him? Did Anakin ever try to visit his mom? Would Obi Wan have objected if Anakin had mad some attempt to free Shmi? Could some money have changed hands to buy Shmi and get her off Tatooine?

    I think you have to understand that Obi-Wan and Anakin were pretty much a busy pair of Jedi during TPM and AOTC, going from planet to planet doing mission after mission. The Republic's getting to be a troublesome place and there is hardly time for anyone to stop and really think of selfish wants so-to-speak.
    To answer your questions - I think Obi-Wan had a control over Anakin, being his Master and all, which didn't enable Anakin to do what he wished. I read in The Approaching Storm (yes i know its EU) that Obi-Wan said that what he and Anakin did was not up to them but up to the council (remember Obi-Wan is a stickler for keeping with the programme) and they go where they are told. As I said its not until Anakin has the freedom from Obi-Wan when he is on Naboo with Padme that he can go and see his mother. That indicates to me at least, that Obi-Wan has a very tight control over Anakin and in someway Anakin actually fears Obi-Wan (?).

    And do the Jedi consider a child loving their mother and wanting her to be freed from slavery wrong? Or is it only wrong if that particular child is training to be a Jedi? Is it ok for a Padawan to become attached to his teacher? If the teacher got bonked over the head and forced into slavery, would it be ok for the padawan to free them? Is there any way I can find the answers to these questions without having to go through the EU?

    Ah I see I expressed myself badly in my response, my apologies.
    I can't really answer those questions from using either the films or the EU, I personally can't see how they'd see it wrong to want to free the mother of a child.
    Though the Jedi have this problem with attachments and its why they get heir initiates when they are practically a day old etc.
    Its not necessarily wrong for the Padawan, in Anakins case, to want to have his mother freed and to see her safe but to the PT Jedi it deviates from what a Jedi should do and be.
    Anakin always wanted his mother to be free and safe but you cannot guarantee that, even if he had seen her earlier some harm would have come to her if not the Tuskens then something else and Anakin would still have been like he was in AOTC. Thats the unpredictability of a person's life and Anakin should have been able to let go and accept that whatever fate Shmi ended up having would have always been so. His attachment to her clouded his judgement and in life you can't deal with "what if's" , which Anakin struggles with, because it wouldnt have mattered what he or anyone would have done the same thing would have happened maybe earlier or even later.
  7. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    They beleive it is wrong to allow Padawans for form attatchments.

    Of any kind? Or is it the strength of the attachment that is important. Is this a personal theory of yours, or is it stated in the films?

    And do they believe that it is wrong for Padawans to form attachments, or Jedi in general?

    The idea is that Jedi give their entire selves to the Jedi order.

    Once again, is this a personal theory? EU? Are attachments forbidden, unless it's an attachment to the Jedi Order?

    Can a Padawan be attached to his teacher, or vice versa?





  8. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    Anakin, on the refugee transport:

    "Attachment is forbidden."

    Look again at The Phantom Menace: Obi-Wan's attachment to Qui-Gon clouded his judgment after Qui-Gon was killed -- and Obi-Wan was nearly defeated in the process.

    As a Jedi you must focus on the higher calling. For Yoda, that might mean serving the Unifying Force. For Qui-Gon, that might mean serving the Living Force. For Mace and Obi-Wan, that might mean serving the Jedi Order. But the key is devotion to that higher calling: any attachment that can interfere with that devotion can ultimately lead to the Dark Side.
  9. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    JenX,

    Attachments are forbidden, as Anakin states in the scene on board the refugee transport.

    Can a Padawan be attached to his teacher, or vice versa

    Yes, example being Obi-Wan's obvious attachment to Qui-Gon in TPM. His emotional response to Qui-Gon being stabbed and his outburst of fury towards Darth Maul prove that.
    Anakins attachment to Obi-Wan is quite obvious as well, even though he feels grievances towards his Master.

    EDIT: Bubba put it just as good as me.
  10. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Jedi strive to live above the emotional turmoil that average citizens endure.

    Anakin has already been tainted by his relationship with his mother and his intense emotional attatchment to Padme.
  11. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    If attachment is forbidden, is Obi Wan's attachment to Qui Gon forbidden, and vice versa? Why have a system where you place someone in a one on one relationship with somone else if you feel attachments are a bad thing?

    Could a padawan free their enslaved teacher?
    Could a padawan free their enslaved mother?

    Are both actions forbidden if they stem from an attachment to the enslaved person?

    Are all attachments equally forbidden? What is the punishment for becoming attached to something?

    Does Yoda have an attachment to Anakin and Obi Wan, one which clouds his judgement in his duel with Dooku where he saves their lives (thus allowing Dooku to escape)? Should he be expelled from the Jedi Order, or should he resign?



  12. LucasCop Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 2
    Do you need everyone to answer all of your questions?

    Can't you make your own deductions?

    Do you not realize that such evidence of provocation of thought may be indicative of a rather good yarn?

    Or should you simply give up on a saga if it brings you so much grief?

    Don't mind me. Carry on......
  13. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Do you need everyone to answer all of your questions?

    No

    Can't you make your own deductions?

    Well, yes, but I like to hear what other people have to say about these films. That's why I post on a discussion forum.

    [face_laugh]

    Do you not realize that such evidence of provocation of thought may be indicative of a rather good yarn?

    It might well be. But it might equally be indicative of a badly written, plotted and executed yarn. But that's not what I'm arguing, so I don't see why you felt the need to bring that up

    Or should you simply give up on a saga if it brings you so much grief?

    It doesn't bring me grief. Man, it must be hard to enforce sanity on bashers and gushers when you find it so hard to understand what they are saying, thinking and/or feeling.

    Don't mind me. Carry on......

    Yes, I think I'll try to do that in future. Thanks :)
  14. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    JenX has a very good point, and thus a flaw in the whole Jedi attachment idea. At what point are the lines drawn? Why is rescuing ObiWan on Geno acceptable and freeing Shmi not?

    The logical reasoning behind Anakin not having seen his mother is that he simply doesn't care. He's rebellious when it comes to girlfriends that he hardly knows, but not his own mother... so those were crocodile tears in TPM.

    "Emotional attatchments serve to cloud their judgment, as we can already see is the case with Anakin."

    Then Yoda is a hypocrite, his 'emotional attachment' allowed Dooku to escape. He's about as accountable for the Clone Wars as JarJarBinks.



    I do think its amusing that you're all making assumptions about what Anakin or Obiwan could have done. I learnt my lesson with the OT - NEVER make assumptions about SW, no matter how informed or likely they may be (because GL will trash them the first moment he can)
  15. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I don't think it is expresly forbidden for a Jedi to free his enslaved mother. However, the Republic have no juristiction on Tattoine, so it's not like the Jedi could "enforce" the Republic's laws regarding slavery.

    Also, Anakin made the choice to become a Jedi Knight. Qui-Gon warned him that it would be a hard life. Qui-Gon's tone poem goes on to say "one without reward, without remorse, without regret".

    I think that once Anakin became a Padawan, he had to leave his past behind. As we see in AOTC, Anakin still dreams about his mother, and Obi-Wan is trying to tell him that it will pass.

    Rescuing Obi-Wan was not expressly forbidden, he was told to both stay put on Tatooine, and to protect the Queen at all costs. When Padme showed him the loophole, he took it.

    It's the same with his feelings towards Padme. He says attatchments are forbidden. But that compassion, something he would define as unconditional love was integral to a Jedi's life. Again, he has found his loophole, this time to justify falling in love with Padme.
  16. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    I don't think it is expresly forbidden for a Jedi to free his enslaved mother.

    That's interesting. But how do you square that with attachment being forbidden? Because there are many slaves...what other reason would a Jedi have to free the one that happens to be their mother, if not the attachment they feel?


    However, the Republic have no juristiction on Tattoine, so it's not like the Jedi could "enforce" the Republic's laws regarding slavery.

    Oh, I agree completely, but freeing Shmi wouldn't require the enforcement of Republic laws on Tatooine. She could be purchased in accordance with the laws on Tatooine and then taken off planet.


    From what you've said, Anakin does tend to find (or go along with) loopholes that allow him to do things that he shouldn't. Yet in a situation where a loophole isn't even needed (freeing Shmi) he doesn't act until he starts having bad dreams.


    I still wonder whether attachment really is forbidden and what the punishment for becoming attached is?
  17. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well, it's the rule of abandoning attatchments that gets in his way of freeing his mother. I think Anakin always felt that after he became a Jedi Knight, he would be able to free his mother, but until he was better able to control his feelings, he would have to wait.

    Qui-Gon had already tried to purchase Shmi, but according to him, "Watto wouldn't have it".

    Anakin had been having dreams, and when he talks to Obi-Wan about them, he tells them they will pass. Eventually, the dreams become too intense for him to ignore any longer.

    It's all meant to contrast with Luke going to cloud city to help his friends. It's the same thing. Yoda beleives that Luke isn't mature enough to face the situations that lay ahead of him if he leaves before his training is complete.

    That's part of what Anakin's problem was.
  18. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    "Qui-Gon had already tried to purchase Shmi, but according to him, "Watto wouldn't have it"."

    A completely different scenario, he just didn't have enough money.

    Not at least SEEING his mother simply doesn't gel with the rebellious streak that Anakin has. And if ObiWan thought of Anakin as a 'good friend', he'd find a way to get them to Tatooine. But obviously neither of them care (especially if both knew about the dreams - which makes it even more nonsensical)

  19. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Sure he had enough money. Watto didn't think a pod was worth two slaves, but agreed to one. The pod was just proven the fastest pod in the galaxy in the Boonta eve. You know Sebulba payed Qui-Gon top dollar for it.

    So with the money from the sold pod, he tried to buy Shmi, but "Watto wouldn't have it".

    He considered Qui-Gon to be a swindler who took him for almost everything he had. He wouldn't sell Shmi to him for any price out of spite.
  20. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Anakin didn't go back because part of his training was to detatch himself from her.
  21. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    JenX has a very good point, and thus a flaw in the whole Jedi attachment idea. At what point are the lines drawn? Why is rescuing ObiWan on Geno acceptable and freeing Shmi not?


    What is implied by Anakin in his little "compassion" speach is that forming attatchments is a bad idea. Attatchments introduce emotions into their actions. For example-Anakins attatchment to his mother, lead to him slaughtering the Tuskan raiders. Thus his journy to the Darkside began. Had he accepted his mothers death-he could have walked off with her body, without any loss of life...especially the innocent.

    As it was-Republic credits NOT being accepted, lack of juristiction and the explosive tracking device prevented a rescue attempt for Shimi. Not only that-a more pressing matter of Naboo invasion had Jedis occupied.

    And there was a little matter of the Sith re-emerging.

    The Jedi ordered Anakin to stay with Padme-they were going to rescue obiwan. It is Padme who realizes the pain Anakin would feel at the loss of Obi-wan, uses the loophole to help him out.
  22. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    "Had he accepted his mothers death-he could have walked off with her body, without any loss of life...especially the innocent."

    LOL so he was 'supposed' to just accept it? That's just inane, if the jedi were allowed attachment, he'd have his mother with him (if not in a safer place) - hence there would be no need for strong emotions like hate and anger should they get killed, someone in the Order didn't think that rule through...

    Personally I hate all this new stuff GL has come up with about the jedi. Now they're celibate monks who try to act like vulcans. They act all pompous (even when they're getting their asses kicked by a bunch of droids) and we're suppose to feel bad that they get systematically hunted down and slaughtered by Vader? The audience will probably be cheering in ep3, I know I will.

    "the explosive tracking device"

    Eh?
  23. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    LOL so he was 'supposed' to just accept it? That's just inane, if the jedi were allowed attachment, he'd have his mother with him (if not in a safer place) - hence there would be no need for strong emotions like hate and anger should they get killed, someone in the Order didn't think that rule through...

    Well Anakin does have accept his mother's death, just like we have accept the death's of our family members when something happens to them.
    It is however not easy to accept a person's death.
    Also you shouldn't try to control other people's lives so it helps give you a positive emotional balance. Thats why part of being a Jedi is learning to let go and let others continue down their own paths while you follow yours.
    Anakin cannot accept that life goes on wihout him (mainly because he is immature) , he doesn't understand that everyone has to die sometime, even in the most brutal of fashions.
    He wants control over people's destinys, people's lives after his mother dies. And as I've said he just doesn't accept that people do have to lead their own life and will die one day no matter what you try and do.
  24. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>The fact was that when Anakin left Shmi she was a slave with an explosive device in her body who could be sold at a moments notice. That's a pretty nightmarish situation to be in. Anakin could have chosen to defy the rules earlier if he so wished...but he didn't.

    Wasn't it really obvious that the reason Anakin went back was because of his nightmares that he couldn't stop, and that it was his first time away from Obi Wan, and therefore his first opportunity to do so?

    :confused:

    >>>And do the Jedi consider a child loving their mother and wanting her to be freed from slavery wrong?

    The Jedi consider that using their powers for their own personal missions, as opposed to Jedi missions, is/leads to the Dark Side. (Which is why Qui Gon says they can't use their powers to help Amidala, no matter how righteous they think her battle is, they can only do what they were told- protect her, and draw out Maul.)

    Besides, sooner or later, something bad would have happened wherever she was. She was going to die. Anakin couldn't stop that. Look at his reaction- "why did she have to die?" He can't handle one of the most basic facts of life. He wants to stop death.

    Then watch Yoda in ROTJ.

    >>>Could a padawan free their enslaved teacher?

    I think it's interesting that if the Jedi hadn't tried to rescue Obi Wan, they wouldn't have got sucked into Palpatine's plan. So the Jedi were manipulated through the attachments they try to avoid...
  25. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    What is this explosive device in Shmi?
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