Census What explanation do you accept for the diversity of life on Earth?

Discussion in 'Community' started by Lord Vivec, Sep 10, 2012.

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What explanation do you accept for the diversity of life on Earth?

Naturalistic Evolution 63 vote(s) 64.9%
Theistic Evolution 17 vote(s) 17.5%
Old Earth Creationism 4 vote(s) 4.1%
Young Earth Creationism 5 vote(s) 5.2%
Alien Seeding 5 vote(s) 5.2%
Other 3 vote(s) 3.1%
  1. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    This was my attempt to get the creationism topic and the "here's how I reconcile science with mythology" topic out of the gooooooo science thread.
  2. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Rouge_Tonne, did you see LouisCK talking about evolution?
  3. Condition2SQ Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    A ha. Well in that case well played.

    Since this is here, I'll post three of my favorite pieces by evolutionary biologist H. Allen Orr. Reviews of books by Michael Behe, Daniel Denett, and Richard Dawkins, respectively.

    Review trashing Behe's "Intelligent Design" screed 'Darwin's Black Box'

    Critical review of Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Dennett's work which argues that Darwinism extends outward from biology into virtually every conceivable discipline

    Critical review of Dawkins' unsophisticated, myopic, and onanistic 'The God Delusion'
  4. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    For ****'s sake just say it's "masturbatory" already. :p
    Last edited by Ramza, Sep 11, 2012
  5. Sauntaero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2003
    star 4
    I voted other. It's all just magic, as far as I'm concerned. Sure maybe some god had a hand in it, but I couldn't say which one. Gaia, maybe? Anyway, it's way cool that life has evolved so diversely, and yet so simply.
  6. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Even if

    1. there is a God

    2. God is all-powerful

    that doesn't mean God uses all that power.
  7. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    But why not? Or, why would a god put all these convoluted, arbitrary, and inefficient mechanisms into place and just leave it alone?
  8. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    God's like a Dragon Ball Z character. He's going to go at least 20 episodes before revealing his second of five transformations, and even then he'll only be using 60% of his full potential.
    Last edited by Ramza, Sep 11, 2012
  9. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Yeah, God's actually a massive ******* or really lazy.

    He could cure all hate, suffering and loss in the world but instead gets annoyed about abortions and gay marriage.

    What an awesome deity humans bow before!
    timmoishere likes this.
  10. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    Does he scream while he's powering up like he's really, really constipated as less-powerful deities look on in awe?
    Ramza likes this.
  11. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
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    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
  12. PRENNTACULAR VIP

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2005
    star 6
    It's a big assumption to think that because somebody says they believe in God, they automatically believe in an "all powerful" god. Or even a single god.

    I'm a Christian and I don't believe in an all-powerful God.
    Last edited by MASTERPRENN, Sep 11, 2012
    Dark Lady Mara and Darth-Ghost like this.
  13. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    You don't believe God is omnipotent?
  14. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    Pretty sure that the majority of Abrahamic traditions consider God omnipotent. Not saying you do, just that it's a safe assumption.
    Last edited by Darth_Guy, Sep 11, 2012
  15. PRENNTACULAR VIP

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2005
    star 6
    Nah.

    Edit: that was a response to Vivec, not DG.
    Last edited by MASTERPRENN, Sep 11, 2012
  16. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
  17. PRENNTACULAR VIP

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2005
    star 6
    DG, I get what you're saying. Also, it's not unreasonable to assume that most people who believe in God on these message boards are a part of the Abrahamic traditions as opposed to Eastern traditions or something. I'm just saying, in this thread it has looked like people are generally assuming "belief in theistic evolution = belief in an omnipotent creator". Which isn't necessarily a crazy assumption, but it's also not necessarily an all-encompassing one.
    Last edited by MASTERPRENN, Sep 11, 2012
    Darth-Ghost likes this.
  18. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2002
    star 9
    I think it was natural evolution.

    I'm definitely interested in hearing more about theistic evolution and what it means for those of you who believe in it, since that's the option I'm least familiar with.
  19. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    What MASTERPRENN said. There are many forms of theism.





    Why would it be inefficient for God, when God has infinite time/energy/resources?

    And who says he's "leaving it alone?" In my view, those natural processes are the work of God.




    You're generalizing/stereotyping.

    I'm a Christian. I think gay marriage is just as sacred as straight marriage.

    And there's this thing called "free will," if you want to get into the problem of evil, but I think that's beyond the scope of this thread.





    I know this wasn't directed to me, but to answer: I don't think God has to be omnipotent or omniscient in the way people generally describe omnipotence/omniscience. Still the most powerful/knowledgable force, but not necessary to be omnipotent/omniscient. Maybe God is omnipotent and omniscient, maybe God isn't, whatever.

    It's not really a big deal to me. I believe God is powerful and knowing where it counts; that God understands/controls and is responsible for the processes of nature, and knows our hearts and minds, and is powerful enough to ensure everlasting spiritual life for us all.
    Last edited by Darth-Ghost, Sep 11, 2012
  20. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    The vast majority of genetic mutations are not beneficial, and many are harmful; the vast majority of species that have ever lived are extinct. I'd say that leaving a billion-year pile of corpses in our wake just to reach this our-immune-systems-respond-to-infections-by-cooking-our-brains point is pretty inefficient. And I know you're just going to use the omnipotence/omniscience/"God is outside of time" trump card. Dammit, Vivec, I try to keep my mouth shut about this but you had to post the thread!

    I refer to the Futurama quote in my first post, and Ender's "God must be an *******."
    Ender_Sai and PRENNTACULAR like this.
  21. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    @Darth_Guy

    Evolution doesn't have a goal, every organism currently alive is equally evolved, every scientist and student of science knows that. Of course organisms aren't perfect.

    And problem of evil discussion belongs in its own thread.
    Last edited by Darth-Ghost, Sep 11, 2012
  22. Condition2SQ Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    Eh, just doesn't seem like quite the right register for these types of discussions. Although I will confess that as a student of Judaism, I do have an affinity for using words that are derived from it. It's actually rather astonishing how many of them are ingrained in our language, the vast majority of speakers being completely unaware of their Biblical provenance. (My favorite: the word "shibboleth" being used as an...erm...shibboleth, in the Book of Judges)
  23. Condition2SQ Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    I was actually considering about starting a discussion along those lines...I recently read a biography of Richard Ramirez, "The Night Stalker" and was pretty fascinated by him(yeah, yeah, yeah). What's extremely provocative about him in particular is that while killers like Jeffrey Dahmer were sociopaths with deadly compulsions, I've never really thought he was "evil". Ramirez, though, is a completely different animal. He absolutely knew he was terrorizing people, and while killing was a compulsion for him, he also was doing it just for the sake of terrorizing people. I don't really believe in metaphysical "good" and "evil", but Richard Ramirez has forced me to think about it more closely than I ever had before.
    Last edited by Condition2SQ, Sep 11, 2012
  24. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    I gotta stop. I gotta. I just can't!

    Of course it's purposeless. I know that. I just assumed that if you believed there was some conscious creator behind it, that it did have a purpose. I'm just saying that if I were all-powerful, I could come up with something better that didn't cause eons of suffering and didn't make an infinite amount of mistakes and didn't continue indefinitely (until all life is gone) and the whole thing was a mistake and **** it let's just sit around waiting for the stars to burn out and atoms to fall apart.

    Doesn't the "problem of evil" usually refer to human evil, not the brutality and stupidity of nature?
    Last edited by Darth_Guy, Sep 11, 2012
  25. Condition2SQ Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    Oh, yeah, I forgot that in this context the "problem of evil" is a logical argument for the non-existence of God. I was thinking of "evil" in a more general sense. Woops.